Well Pitbull, (seems odd to be discussing religion with a pitbull)
I think a reasonable reading of what I've said would make it clear that I was not proposing a "religion free" nation, just a religion free government. It is the INDIVIDUAL who should have a right to "free" decision to choose to believe "otherwise", whatever that may mean in any given community, or not-at-all, without censure.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
The Czech government's anti-religion stance does not demonstrate that the best government would have a "pro" religion slant. Once again I direct your attention to how THAT approach has worked-out for many cultures. I find it appalling that people have been tortured FOR religion, and equally appalling that many have been tortured BY "religion".
I vote for a religiously "neutral" government. "Separate" says it very well.
Can you consider the literal truth of this statement?: Religion is NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS! Why do so many seem to want it otherwise?
I am amazed at the idea that people are not content to let religious beliefs be a 'personal' issue, between them and their god, (with or without benefit of clergy, etc.) ...but seem to need, on some emotional level, to be 'validated' or endorsed-in-their-choice, by some high-visibility symbolic (in the case of this discussion, political) figure.
An auto mechanic who works on my car while imposing his religious views on me, may or may not offend me, depending on my own views. In any case, He is not acting as a representative of all auto mechanics, and so those in that group who may disagree emphatically with his beliefs will not feel that he is attempting to speak for them, and I can make my own decision as to "subjecting myself" to his talk.
In any event, I am paying him to fix my car. Not to teach me his doctrine. Why he presumes interest on my part is another question. Maybe he has a "calling" to help the Lord speak to me, although I'm confident the Lord could speak emphatically on his own behalf if he wished.
The president of this nation is a representative of all. For him to 'display' his personal concepts of the "Creator", and thereby imply(no words to that effect necessary) that those who disagree with his choice (probably the wisest-choice, since he is our "leader"), are somehow possibly off-the-official-American-track, does NOTHING to provide better government, ...the job he has been hired to do.
I sincerely believe that if Bush were a Muslim (let's say) and was sprinkling his political appearances/remarks with references to Allah's wishes, support, and guidance, a whole bunch of Christians would be singing a different tune about the prominent display of his personal belief. (I used Allah simply because It is the name used to identify the Creator by another large group of religious adherents,...certainly not because I consider it more-or-less proper, as a belief.)
And if his personal choice was for a little-known, "strange"-seeming religion,many would be offended. And, I ask again, all-of-this has WHAT(?) to do with 'governing"!!
To put the situation as simply as I am able to perceive it, ...if someone indicates by their agreeing-with (imitating) your choice, ...you are flattered(pleased) and all is well. (Obviously, YOU have chosen wisely!)
If someone, particularly of "stature", calls your choice into question, by choosing differently, you are unsettled, perhaps feeling slighted, or insecure in your own decision.
This is simple human nature, and understandable.
But WHY IN THE WORLD should these issues be ANY PART of running the nation's government??
For CowboyDoc: None of what I have written was intended to be in opposition to "spirituality', whatever form it might take for any individual. I myself have some very definite ideas ("faith") concerning the spiritual elements of life. It is not that I disagree with ALL belief, ...but I certainly disagree with SOME beliefs, mostly connected with "organized/bureaucratized' religions, and I just don't think ANY of this hot-button stuff BELONGs in our political arena. It is too easily "used' for anything BUT spiritual purpose.
What would be different(and I mean worse) if we had a spiritually-aware leader whose "brand-affiliation" was not known, but whose behaviour was the credible evidence of the kind of person he was?
As to the "What if you're wrong? " approach to embracing religion, ... I see it as nothing more noble than attempted "covering-your-ass."
Intellectual courage and integrity demands, by my definition, that a statement of firm belief be JUST THAT!
Not a statement of fear (of missing-out and being "punished"), nor a statement of naive "hope", that "It will be SO wonderful IF this turns out to be true!"
Fear is understandable, in the face of the unknown, ...and there is nothing wrong with hope, it CAN be comforting.
But my hat is always off to those who have the honesty to admit to the truth of NOT-knowing, ...and who have the courage to find that "fact of life" acceptable.
Those who are not satisfied with the answers of today, will add to the knowledge of tomorrow with their questioning!
As to "miracles": I have studied the phenomena of suggestion, "miracle healing" etc, for over 20 years, and am blatantly and unashamedly confident that I know something about these things.
I will state bluntly, so as not to beat-around-the-bush, that such healings /miracles take place in EVERY religion, AND in the SECULAR world.
The active ingredient is THAT one HAS faith, ...it is NOT what the faith is IN!
I expect that statement to be inflammatory, particularly for those who have invested a great deal of energy and time in "building" their faith IN a particular direction.
My flame-suit is on, and I am really so used to cries of outrage at such statements that they are literally boring to me anymore.
This does not mean that I don't care that people are disturbed. I means that I know that old beliefs have to be shaken, if room is to be made for new ones, that reflect advances in knowledge.
Those advances, for those who may find it interesting, do not indicate that there is no creator, but that the workings of the creation are different than many have thought. Yes, the Earth rotates around the Sun, no,...there is no "edge" to fall-off-of when venturing to sea, and what is happening when a person "prays" is understood better now, too.
The most accurate instruction in the Christian Bible, only one of many informative sources of various truths, is this quote, attributed to Jesus; "That which you would have, when you pray, ...believe that you HAVE it!, ...and you shall!"
I'll simply add that the significant word is "HAVE". Believing that you are-going-to-get-it, is NOT the same act-of-faith. (Serious thought must be given to the distinction made here.)
This is the Biblical pronouncement of the principle of imaging or 'visualization' that is being effectively practised by sports enthusiasts, behaviour-modifiers, and yes religious-adherents, all over the world.
Religion, physics, and metaphysics are converging /merging into composite understanding that adds daily to the awareness of those who are not blindfolded by what they are "SUPPOSED-TO-BELIEVE".
My suggestion for a basic prayer for those who wish to find fundamental truth, without the garments of any prescribed "system" is simply to apply the above method-of-prayer, with the request/goal that what-is-true be known, rather than what is popularly believed-to-be-true.
Of course this will NOT be effective for anyone who has "bought" the teaching that "Our way is the only way, anything else is the work of SATAN" , etc., etc., etc.,
There are always those who will stand on the dock "tsk. tsk"-ing while ships filled with people with a different kind of "faith" sail over the horizon. To each his own. Viva free-will!
Reality check! Here I am, on TBN, which I have seldom-visited in recent months, (and where I still plan to contribute some interesting data from my work with SUPERBABY",) spouting unrequested "opinion" on the Bible, religion, politics, and prayer, in a manner unapologetic and somewhat confrontational (To people whose respect and camaraderie I value, I might add), and spending far too-much time doing it.
Probably time to return to "incommunicado"-mode, and get back to productive uses of my time.
I have enjoyed the visit, though. Spirited(spiritual?) discussion is always a "good" thing, ..if not always an easy one!
I may hang around awhile to see if there are more sparks.
Thanks to all participants in this thread, and best wishes to everyone,
Larry
