President Bush

[TonyC]

I agree wholeheartedly, Terry. I am not a very religious person myself and do not like it getting too far into politics. However, I also see our Presidents faith as a general part of him being an honest and sincere person. He is, for a change, the real deal. Not slick, polished or full of BS. No, he won't always be right but I firmly believe he will always act in what he believes are our best interests. I really don't think we can ask for more that that from a president.

 

[cowboydoc]

I shudder to think of a world without religion. What would there be to keeping us from being no better than animals? If there were no religion and the belief in a higher power what would there be to hold people accountable? If there were no religion and no consequences for doing wrong what keep the world from being in complete anarchy? Even with laws and such a person can get away with anything until they get caught. Even with laws how long before the lawless take over and at what cost if you do not worry about there being another place after you die? Personally I shudder to think of a society without at least some belief in a higher power and a call to judgment other than our own man made judgment. I'll put my faith in God and a higher calling.

 

[TonyC]

Well put, Cowboydoc. Again, I agree. My problem is with the politics of some many of the organized religions. I feel that many of them have lost sight of the point you made in your own statement.

 

[cowboydoc]

I couldn't agree more with the concept of organized religion Tony. I was raised Catholic in a Mormon town. Talk about two extremes of religion. Most religions believe they are better than the other and that their doctrine is right. I still fail to see the problem with just believing in God, reading the good Book, and living by the ten commandments. Unfortunately for too many religions it has to be done a certain way, at a certain time, etc. But it's still better than the alternative.

 

[TonyC]

Pardon the pun but "Amen" to that cowboydoc!

 

[PitbullMidwest]

<font color=blue>Freedom OF religion only really exists where freedom FROM religion is possible. </font color=blue>

Freedom FROM religion always leads to abolishing religion, restricting the rights of those who practice it and eventually abolishing those who practice religion. Richard Warmbrand clearly details this in his book "Tortured For Christ".

The Czech republic tried to free its country FROM religion by passing laws that kept the "religous" from holding office (easy to do in the communist country), then laws were passed restricting the free assembly of the "religous" and finally passed laws that forbid the practice of religion except in State approved churches. Warmbrand was tortured with electricty and beatings, made to stand inside a box lined with spikes while cold air was pumped in to cause him to shiver against the spikes all the while being asked to renounce his faith in Christ. Why? To guarantee that his country would be "free" FROM religion and its influences.

The constitution does not forbid the religous from being part of government instead it keeps the goverment out of the church.

MY two cents worth.

 

[TerryinMD]

PitBull,

Well said... except that I would add one small detail. The constitution separates both Government and Religion - Government from declaring a state religion and a Religion from running Government affairs. Let me call it a peaceful coexistence for lack of a better way.

Terry

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by TerryinMD on 11/26/01 01:18 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[PitbullMidwest]

<font color=blue>...and a Religion from running Government affairs</font color=blue>

You are correct, remember that the King of England was also the head of the Church of England. The last thing the founding fathers wanted was a church run government. This did not mean that if you held office you had to check your religion or religous views at the door. Which brings us full circle to scruffy's original post concerning the President and his faith.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by PitbullMidwest on 11/26/01 01:28 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[butzkeg]

Well said Cowboydoc.

It seems so many times that spirituality gets confused/mixed up/combined with religion. Many religions are close to peoples' ideas of a cult. That said...

If it were only as simple as what Cowboydoc stated: "I still fail to see the problem with just believing in God, reading the good Book, and living by the ten commandments."

I questioned my faith once, and this how I looked at it: you either believe in God or you don't. If you don't you don't, then you probably think you just die when you're dead and that's it. Then ask, what if this is wrong, there is a God, and the Spirit filled people were right? You would be screwed. However, if you believe in God and follow the plans laid out in the Bible, and this idea is right, you've got it made. If this is wrong, what have you lost...Pretty much nothing. So to this day, I'm a strong, devout Christian.

Freedom of Religion, what a HUGE priviledge.

 

[Chuck52]

Well now let's see.....there are, or have been, some human cannibals. Most, though certainly not all, of the other animals seem to avoid eating their own kind. Hard to score.

Chuck

 

[TWINKLE_TOES]

Kevin,
<font color=blue>Not sure if a Canadian is allowed to participate in this little discussion</font color=blue>
The more perspectives that are involved, the better. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Al

 

[cowboydoc]

Butzkeg,

"I questioned my faith once, and this how I looked at it: you either believe in God or you don't. If you don't you don't, then you probably think you just die when you're dead and that's it. Then ask, what if this is wrong, there is a God, and the Spirit filled people were right? You would be screwed. However, if you believe in God and follow the plans laid out in the Bible, and this idea is right, you've got it made. If this is wrong, what have you lost...Pretty much nothing. So to this day, I'm a strong, devout Christian."

My feelings exactly. Not to add much to that but you've also probably lived a pretty good life and can look back with pride and not fear death. The patients I've dealt with that have had terminal illnesses faired far better when they believed in God than those who didn't. They also surprise you and get well through their faith as well!

 

[Harv]

<font color=blue>pejorative </font color=blue>

Now I don't feel so bad, Mike. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

It's bad enough we weren't sure what the word meant, but even worse we couldn't spell it. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

<font color=blue>Out of desparation, tried http://www.dictionary.com </font color=blue>

I shouldn't say anything, but the irony is just too funny -- it's spelled, "desperation". /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

p.s. To the rest of you readers -- my apologies for being so far off topic in this thread. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

 

[gerard]

Gotta agree with you cowboy doc. If you truly beleive there is no god, then logically speaking you should get out of this life the most you can irrespective of laws or consequences. After all if there's nothing after this life where's the advantage (evolutionarily speaking) of being "moral"? Conscience and self imposed morality is the biggest factor separating us from the animals. The downside to religion is when zealots pervert it to justify their means to THEIR ends. Don't know why people find it so hard to let other people have their own beliefs but history shows wars have been fought for centuries in the name of religion.

 

[Chuck52]

Cowboydoc,
Intra-species fights to the death are not the norm in nature; such behavior would not usually result from evolutionary development as it would not favor species survival.
This thread has really wandered from my objection to what I saw as an over-simplification and over-glorification of George Bush and his rise to the presidency. I'd really prefer not to get into a detailed discussion of religion, and apparently I started it all with my use of "deification".

 

[scruffy]

Chuck, I really don't understand where you come up with the 'deification' issue at all, but you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint.
I believe fully in God, while I can honestly state that I cannot agree with various denominational doctrins, particularly those that seem to have no biblical basis.
I 'sat' on this article, solely because of its potential to 'irritate' a segment of society....the same segment who feel that it is TOTALLY their right to impose THEIR wishes upon everyone, irreguardless of others feelings, beliefs, or wishes.
Sorry, but my faith and beliefs put me into that catagory described by CBDoc <font color=red>The patients I've dealt with that have had terminal illnesses faired far better when they believed in God than those who didn't. They also surprise you and get well through their faith as well!</font color=red> I have been fighting Mantel Cell Lymphoma for the past 10 months, and currently am in remission. Is this pretty much standard for this type of cancer? Hardly. Only 10 to 15% survive out to the one year mark with it. Did I, or the Doctors do any heroical procedures to reach this point? Nothing out of the normal scope of treatment prescribed for cancer. In all aspects, I can but give credit where credit is due...Almighty God. If that makes you uncomfortable, I am sincerely sorry for you.
Irreguardless, I will (along with many, many others) pray for God to daily guide George W. in the decisions he makes for the welfare, safety, leadership, and protection of our country, as well as the many others who have joined the International endeavor to irradicate terrorism.