Pay for work not done?

[slowrev]

Yes mike.
If a dealer doesn't know and is mostly blow, his customers will go.
Ben

 

[Richard]

I'm curious...

Though I think you acted fine given the facts, something strikes me as odd. This dealer was going to charge you $75 to fix the PS, AND to move the exhaust stacks?

Perhaps the bill would have been $475 total and the $75 was for the transfer of the exhaust stack? (meaning, he only charged you for the work they did)

The numbers just seem out of whack to me. none the less, I'm all for 'getting their attention' and there is certainly no way better to do that than financially.

 

[cast_and_blast]

"To me, stopping the payment via the CC company would be kind of a last resort.

Just my opinion."

In my opinion it is the first thing to do. I've done it, and Curlydave is right, nothing gets their attention like a stop payment.

I stand by my statement. I think it's always better to talk with folks first and try to work it out. If that doesn't work then you have the "hammer" of stopping payment as a backup. In the case of a personal check you need to move quickly, with a Credit Card you have some time.

Doc Bob has now clarified that he did call the dealer first and was unable to work things out. He then called the credit card company and stopped payment. That makes sense - I would have done the same thing.

Good Luck!

Scott

 

[slowrev]

I'm curious...

Though I think you acted fine given the facts, something strikes me as odd. This dealer was going to charge you $75 to fix the PS, AND to move the exhaust stacks?

Perhaps the bill would have been $475 total and the $75 was for the transfer of the exhaust stack? (meaning, he only charged you for the work they did)

The numbers just seem out of whack to me. none the less, I'm all for 'getting their attention' and there is certainly no way better to do that than financially.

I don't believe the $75 for the exhaust swap was in dispute , but the other charges for fixing the other issue that was not worked on. You cannot stop part of a CC payout, all or nothing.

 

[Richard]

I only noticed a reference to a $75 charge. I must of missed the other comments about the rest of the charges.

 

[sandman2234]

I just wonder what recourse I would have if I used a debit card, with a visa logo? Does that allow me the same option, or only if I specify "credit card"?
I would like to keep that option open, in case it ever happens to me.
David from jax

 

[RobJ]

Now that you have his attention, ask him what he is willing to pay you for your time spent fixing the problem he caused.

Also there is the matter of trucking from TX to WI. If he wants to do the work, he should pay not only for trasnsport, but a reasonable rate for your loss of use of the tractor while it is gone.

Even if you choose to have the work done locally, he should still pay for your time to arrange the work and your loss of use.

Are you sort of kidding here? You really think a dealer would pay that? Say you buy a new baler(or a used tractor from the dealer) and you already have hay on the ground, it breaks, in time you lose some hay. Is he supposed to pay for the hay? Manufactor supposed to pay? Rub of the green. At best the dealer might give you a break on something later on.

I think this is a simple case, no work no pay. Talked with the dealer before canceling, the only corse of action was to cancel. Personally I would never cancel without talking first. They might just not know? But the Texas/WI thing does make it a bit difficult. Doc did the right thing.

But I REALLY want to know the other rest of the story Doc....why did you buy a tractor in Texas and ship to WI. And it sounds like a used tractor? Ebay? Just a super deal?

Good Luck,
Rob

 

[CurlyDave]

Are you sort of kidding here?

No.

You really think a dealer would pay that?

Not willingly.

Say you buy a new baler(or a used tractor from the dealer) and you already have hay on the ground, it breaks, in time you lose some hay. Is he supposed to pay for the hay?

You are postulating a different situation. In good faith the dealer sold you something with a hidden defect he did not know about. OTOH, if you can prove that he knew the machine was defective and he hid the defect when he sold it to you, then he would be liable for the hay, and a whole lot more. The element of fraud creates a situation where the guilty party is liable for any consequential damages, no matter what his sales invoice or contract with you says.

I believe that even if it was an honest mistake to start with, when the dealer was told that the work wasn't done, and still wanted the original poster to pay for it, he started moving into the fraud range. I am not a lawyer, but I am not completely ignorant of legal matters either. If I had this problem I would take the tractor to a different dealer and get a diagnosis. If he gets written, outside confirmation the work was not done, or was not properly done, the OP is going to be on a very solid footing.

As a practical matter, collecting for consequential damages might take more legal effort that it is worth, but if the OP makes the dealer aware that he has committed a fraud, the dealer may well think carefully about his next move. He does not want to get into legal trouble, and if the credit card company can be convinced that the dealer has knowingly committed fraud, the credit card company can, and will, cancel his merchant VISA account. If he can not take credit cards, his business will fall off substantially. They probably will not do it for one isolated complaint, but if there are several, the dealer will be on very shaky ground.

Let me give you an example of a similar situation that happened to me about 15 years ago:

The front tires on my care were wearing unevenly and a local tire shop had a newspaper ad for an alignment, which stated "factory trained technicians".

I took my car in and bought four new tires and then had the wheels aligned. I watched the kid run the tire alignment machine and he could not even get past the startup screen for the computer. They told me that my alignment needed no adjustment, despite the clearly uneven wear on the old tires, and gave me paperwork which indicated that.

I went back the next day, with a copy of the ad, and spoke to the manager. I asked to see the training completion certificate for the mechanic who had aligned my car. After listening to me, the manager admitted that the mechanic had not been trained, and that he had not really made any alignment ajustments, even though they had charged me for them.

I pointed out that he had fraudulently charged me for an alignment, and had falsely advertised training that the mechanic did not have.

The manager called in another mechanic from another shop who re-did the alignment properly, gave me the alignment free, and refunded the price of two of the four tires. No, he didn't want to do it, but when I explained that his shop had knowingly committed fraud and that I had written proof of it, and would complain to both the law and the credit card company, he became very willing to work out a compromise.

No, I don't do this very often, but I feel strongly that if a business commits an act which is clearly illegal, they should pay a penalty for it. This is the only way they will ever learn to treat customers fairly. Since I have owned retail operations in the past, I knew his markup on tires was well over 50%. He didn't lose any money on the deal, he just didn't make any either.

 

[Doc_Bob]

But I REALLY want to know the other rest of the story Doc....why did you buy a tractor in Texas and ship to WI. And it sounds like a used tractor? Just a super deal?

Rob

Great deal on a used tractor purchased in Texas. Spoke with the seller (many times) who freely disclosed that PS was not working correctly along with error codes, etc.. We both agreed to take it to a NH dealer who happened to be the dealer that originally sold the tractor. I called dealer and said, the PS does not work correctly, gave the dealer a list of error codes and symptoms, and dealer said, "no problem, we can fix it".

I did not pay the seller (a private party) for the tractor until NH dealer had confirmed error codes and once again said he could fix it. Fine. I got a great deal on a tractor that was exactly as described that was going to have the PS fixed by the original selling dealer. I thought, it can't get any better than this! Boy, was I surprised!

Tractor shipped to WI from TX ( I used Bestway Trucking) when it arrived, I figured out the PS was not working correctly. The NH dealer never fixed it.

The tractor has proven to be a great deal. Runs well, great power, it is everything I was told it was and more. The only problem I have had so far is the NH dealer not fixing the PS! This was the last thing I expected to go wrong. Most folks would have guessed some undisclosed problem by the seller biting me in the "rear". That never happened.

I have no regrets. I would do it all again, but make sure it was taken to an AG tractor dealer.

Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

I don't believe the $75 for the exhaust swap was in dispute , but the other charges for fixing the other issue that was not worked on. You cannot stop part of a CC payout, all or nothing.

You are correct. Bill was 1266 dollars including 75 dollars for the swapping of the exhaust to horizontal. But, CCC won't cancel part of a bill, it is as you say, all or nothing.

had the dealer had a mechanic who knew what he was doing and a service manager who actually tested the repair work for completeness, then all would have been fine. But I believe the service manager may not have had any more knowledge of the PS than the mechanic. Case of the blind leading the blind.
Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

I just wonder what recourse I would have if I used a debit card, with a visa logo? Does that allow me the same option, or only if I specify "credit card"?
I would like to keep that option open, in case it ever happens to me.
David from jax

I am sooooo glad I paid using a credit card. Had I paid by check or cash, I would have paid for repairs that would not have been done and no recourse.

Bob

 

[Highbeam]

1200$ is a big wake up call for anyone. That's no small potatoes and represents days of labor by that mechanic. You deserve something for that size of a bill, it should work flawlessly.

 

[RobJ]

1200$ is a big wake up call for anyone. That's no small potatoes and represents days of labor by that mechanic. You deserve something for that size of a bill, it should work flawlessly.

I agree, sounds link they owe you more. how much the local bill to fix the ps? Glad the deal worked out for you in the long run...what's really important(IE not a lot of hidden problems).


CurlyDave, even your story is a bit different. For alignments I buy the lifetime ones. I once had a problem with an alignment...Firestone did it about 3 times one week. Finally got someone who said it was a tire pull, swapped the tires and all is good. I haven't needed my truck aligned in 4 years, and I'm on about 45k on a set of 315's, 4x4 truck.

Being an x mechanic when I talk to people that talk about things like this I use the dishwasher service repair man. You call he out, he looks and says your dishwasher is shot. You say thanks. He says $50 please, you say what for??? He says...you called, I came, I looked, I told....$50 please. He deserves it. Doc's case is different, it was supposed to be repaired. Glad you problem was work out ok.

Rob

 

[Doc_Bob]

Being an x mechanic when I talk to people that talk about things like this I use the dishwasher service repair man. You call he out, he looks and says your dishwasher is shot. You say thanks. He says $50 please, you say what for??? He says...you called, I came, I looked, I told....$50 please. He deserves it.
Rob

Rob, I agree. If the dealer had looked and said, "listen, we can't fix it and it took us 200 dollars of diagnostic time to figure that out", I would have gladly paid. Diagnosis is more important than fixing (although I love to have things fixed ). I see folks everyday and give them a diagnosis. I tell folks everyday what the problem is and if I can fix it. Sometimes I can't fix it ("the dishwasher is shot").
Bob

 

[RobJ]

Rob, I agree. If the dealer had looked and said, "listen, we can't fix it and it took us 200 dollars of diagnostic time to figure that out", I would have gladly paid. Diagnosis is more important than fixing (although I love to have things fixed ). I see folks everyday and give them a diagnosis. I tell folks everyday what the problem is and if I can fix it. Sometimes I can't fix it ("the dishwasher is shot").
Bob

Hey Doc...you get it!!

 

[1bush2hog]

New Holland has technical assistance to all dealers to diagnose and fix problems associated with these error codes - If the problem was still obvious (idiot light comes on when there is a problem) when the mechanic supposedly completed the repair, then the mechanic/dealer should have known the problem was not fixed. The problem here is the lack of service by the dealer. Maybe this problem should also be reported to NH since the dealer is representing them -

Doc - How exactly did you know the problem was not fixed? Were the idiot lights still on when you first cranked it and then you went thru the process to determine the error code, or what?

The dealer that sold me my TN had to try several different things to finally eliminate the source of my problem. There is not always a cut and dry fix available for these error codes, or at least there wasn't in my situation. The error code thrown on my TN indicated a problem with the forward solenoid, however, after replacing this part the error code persisted and dealer then started working with NH assistance to eliminate other sources that might be causing the problem. Final fix for mine was replacing the ECM, but only after the dealer spent a good bit of time in a process of elimination. Thank goodness mine was under warranty at that time.

Based on the reaction from the dealer - I would have done the same thing Doc, at least until they have time to sort this matter out and make it right with you.

Do you have the tractor fixed now? If so, how was the problem fixed?

 

[Soundguy]

Under those circumstances.. i think I'd have done the same thing.

Sounds like that is a crummy dealer.

Of course.. your next move is to:

1) report that dealer to NH corporate.

2) Contact the BBB in their town and report them for their unscrupules business practices.

and

3) if they hassle you for payment, get legal help.. either SA or private.., depending on the circumstances as they unfold.

Do keep us informed about this issue.

Soundguy

Find out that PS was not fixed. Then spoke to dealer who I find out does not routinely work on PS. Then find out no one did a check on the mechanics work before tractor was shipped. If the service manager had simply tried the PS for 10 seconds, he would have known it was not fixed. But he did not check the work, the tractor was shipped and I figured out it was not fixed when it arrived in WI. I called the dealer and told them it was not fixed. Then I figured out the mechanic who did the work had no idea how a PS is supposed to function (limited experience). No one at the dealer had any idea of how a PS is supposed to work. The mechanic, the service manager, the guy (who works for the dealer) who loaded onto the flat bed. No one.

Bottom line, they did not know that they had not fixed the PS because they
1) Did not know what it was and how it was supposed to work.
2) Service manager never bothered to check the work of the mechanic.

 

[Doc_Bob]

3) if they hassle you for payment, get legal help.. either SA or private.., depending on the circumstances as they unfold.

Do keep us informed about this issue.

Soundguy

I hope it never comes to legal! Private woud waste soooo much money. I will keep you informed.
Bob

 

[normde2001]

" Bill was 1266 dollars including 75 dollars for the swapping of the exhaust to horizontal. But, CCC won't cancel part of a bill, it is as you say, all or nothing."

Sure was tough getting "the rest of the story". What does the invoice say the dealer did for the remaining $1191? Does he think he fixed the transmission, or did he charge you for merely attempting to fix the transmission?

 

[Doc_Bob]

"Sure was tough getting "the rest of the story". What does the invoice say the dealer did for the remaining $1191? Does he think he fixed the transmission, or did he charge you for merely attempting to fix the transmission?

Sorry, I did not try to make it "tough". The dealer said he fixed the tranny. The dealer did not say he tried to fix the tranny and failed. Does this help?
The service manager and the mechanic do not know how a fixed tranny is supposed to work (clueless about normal operation of a PS), so they thought they had fixed it. They had not fixed it.
Bob