Parking EVs indoors

[Too many Kubotas]

Is that a photo from Hawaii.

So, a wildfire, not a Tesla fire. So, the whole house would have burnt independent of an EV parked in the garage, and the heat came from far more than an EV.

One issue is the duration. The wildfire burns for hours, although the burn over may be relatively short. But still a lot of heat on all sides of the beams.

Nonetheless, if one has a $500K house, and a less expensive garage. Design it so the car damages the garage, but doesn't also take out the house.

Well, it was my old house in California, not Hawaii, but that part doesn't really matter.

The wildfire that ended up taking out the house a day after the fire blew over, and the following day the garage, apparently having left embers in both. So technically it was a wildfire that started the separate house and garage fires.

It wasn't a $500K house, but the garage was bigger About 2,300 sq. ft. if memory serves me. And when my ex found out I was having a garage built that it was larger than the house, well, that was kinda the start of the divorce. Either way, in the background of the photo is what was left of the house. Nothing.

I don't know what else they had in the garage, but the fact remains that the beam above the Tesla fared much worse than the other one.

 

[sd455dan]

EVs have been around for over a century. However, the big change has been the move from lead acid batteries in one form or another to higher energy density batteries.

There was an issue with laptop computer fires a few years ago, but I think that has largely been resolved.

However, society still needs to look at the thousands of cells that make up modern EV battery packs.

Gasoline car fires along the road are probably more common than EV fires, but it is the EV fires that make the news.

It is going to take some time but I would hope that in the next ten years Battery tech will improve to the point that solid state or at least a much safer less fire prone battery will be the norm. At which point when the LI batteries no longer meet the 70% or so charge holding can be recycled and replaced with a safer non burn hazard style.

 

[tradosaurus]

Is that a photo from Hawaii.

So, a wildfire, not a Tesla fire. So, the whole house would have burnt independent of an EV parked in the garage, and the heat came from far more than an EV.

One issue is the duration. The wildfire burns for hours, although the burn over may be relatively short. But still a lot of heat on all sides of the beams.

If we can build a Space Shuttle that can survive 3000 °F reentry, then we could design a structure that could withstand a car fire, whether it is 100% passive, or also includes active elements such as sprinklers, or cooling pipes.

Australia is building their fire trucks to withstand wildfire burnovers, or at least saving the entire crew inside the truck. Lots of water.

Nonetheless, if one has a $500K house, and a less expensive garage. Design it so the car damages the garage, but doesn't also take out the house.

If that was the damage in Hawaii I have questions why there are trees unburnt near houses that are burnt to the ground.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

The ones to the right are pepper trees, which burn quite well, and should indicated that the fire front came through somewhat quickly. Which makes sense since there was good clearance to the northeast...where the Santa Ana winds generally come from.

Don't know if they survived, but looking at Google Earth, they're gone now. Could have been part of the overzealous cleanup process they require. The myoporum seems to have made it, though.

 

[not2old]

If that was the damage in Hawaii I have questions why there are trees unburnt near houses that are burnt to the ground.

We just went through a wildfire here. (Bush Creek east) A lot of houses are burnt to just ashes while lots of trees nearby only had the needles burnt. Power poles seemed to burn more than the trees . Difficult to understand why.

 

[3930dave]

EVs have been around for over a century. However, the big change has been the move from lead acid batteries in one form or another to higher energy density batteries.

There was an issue with laptop computer fires a few years ago, but I think that has largely been resolved.

However, society still needs to look at the thousands of cells that make up modern EV battery packs.

Gasoline car fires along the road are probably more common than EV fires, but it is the EV fires that make the news.

There is old Nordic saying I like; it translates something like "You can get used to anything, even a Hanging....."

Gasoline use predates all of us; that's part of why we don't notice the background issues as much. I've posted elsewhere about a gasoline tanker fire, on a major Canuck highway..... I know that stretch of road..... you're driving on a multi-lane unidirectional road at night, when you see a river of fire, rolling down the road towards you..... might even be enough to get people to glance away from their phones !!!

Even compressed-air comes with hazards.... all forms of significant stored-energy do.

We notice the EV issue because: EV's are relatively new, the fires are spectacular, and not easy to fight even with the latest tools (which most fire-depts don't have). To access the pack to fight the fire, videos I've seen involved jacking the car somehow..... even for fire-fighters with their full battle-rattle on, not easy to do with a fire that hot. Thinking a heavy grappling hook, over the top of the vehicle and rammed into the opposite side (or just hook the window) to flip the vehicle on it's roof might be worth testing.....

Gasoline fires are pretty well understood..... small-car goes up..... foam it...... road is clogged with debris and needs cleanup, but is contained fairly quickly and decisively.

Many households are more at risk from Li fires from cheapo scooters, bikes, etc, than a name brand EV... but the energy capacity in an EV vehicle battery pack shouldn't be ignored, and can't be, when it goes rogue.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Most EVs have a built in cooling system for the battery pack. It likely gets damaged quickly during a runaway heating event. But, perhaps it could be designed to push all the onboard radiator water into the pack, then allow an external hookup if the pipes would be designed to endure at least for some time.

There are a lot of things that COULD be done (and legislated) to mitigate these risks.... but we need to look @ where the market is @....

Through risk, effort, and a huge amount of money, Tesla took first-mover advantage, and seems to be keeping it, for now at least. Everybody else is playing catch-up. Like I referenced in another post, the last thing these companies want to be slowed down with is safety-requirements..... and in the (Western) obsession to EV the roads, IMO the regulatory agencies are taking a somewhat hands-off (orders from above ? ) approach, for the moment.

As much as my personal focus is tech, I had to learn to pay attention to how money/business factors usually dominate what does / does not happen.....

Just having standardized HV identification and shutoff points would be (like the NHRA figured out, when I was a pup) a good start, but I don't think we are even there yet...... I would like to be proven wrong though.

Those of us who work on ICE know that you can make good sparks with 12v.... the HV in these systems can stop your heart.

Rgds, D.

 

[CliffordK]

We just went through a wildfire here. (Bush Creek east) A lot of houses are burnt to just ashes while lots of trees nearby only had the needles burnt. Power poles seemed to burn more than the trees . Difficult to understand why.

A number of species like Douglas Fir and Ponderosa Pines, as well as the Redwoods and Sequoia are relatively fire resistant, at least for the larger trees. Some may have bark that is several inches thick, that will get scorched, but likely is a good enough of insulator that it will protect the critical cambium growing layer in trees.

If the needles and leaves are gone, the trees may be dead. If some green needles remain at the top of the tree, it may recover.

Fire is a natural part of the environment, cleaning out undergrowth, and even germinating seeds. In some places most of the larger trees survive. In other places with hotter flames, and smaller trees, they all die.

However, human homes built in the deep woods and forest fires don't mix particularly well.

I'm not sure about Canada, but we've had two centuries of forest mismanagement here which makes the fires worse. Although there is no easy answer as to what is good forest management. Clearly cutting down all the big trees is bad. Total suppression of forest fires just makes the next big fire worse. Yet, large fires encroaching on human habitation is bad.

Perhaps there would be examples in nature how 4" of tree bark can protect a couple of century old tree from fires, but a thin layer of gypsum sheetrock only gives a momentary delay to the fire spreading.

 

[3930dave]

We just went through a wildfire here. (Bush Creek east) A lot of houses are burnt to just ashes while lots of trees nearby only had the needles burnt. Power poles seemed to burn more than the trees . Difficult to understand why.

Old poles (very) were treated with creosote, but many/most should have been replaced by now.

Definitely much lower moisture content in a power pole, compared to a live tree.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

I'm not sure about Canada, but we've had two centuries of forest mismanagement here which makes the fires worse. Although there is no easy answer as to what is good forest management. Clearly cutting down all the big trees is bad. Total suppression of forest fires just makes the next big fire worse. Yet, large fires encroaching on human habitation is bad.

i posted this thread, a few years back:

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/threads/bc-francois-lake-fire.421084/

I'd say Canada is at least as bad....

I think it was in the Post article (or another around that time)..... described a fire-crew (govt) sitting in a crew cab watching a 80 y/o local rancher clear the road in front of them, by herself, as they weren't allowed to run chainsaws after dark.

Sums up where we are..... I grew up in Ottawa, decided to leave as a young adult...... I expect Incompetence from govt, but it's not hard to argue there is something else and worse @ play at times....

I've always done my own research, but esp.today, with emerging tech etc, blindly believing govt oversight and legislation is going to protect you..... not even A Fool's Game.....

Rgds, D.