Parking EVs indoors

[Eagle1]

Propane flame/ammonia cycle refrigerator.

True but not running on propane at the time. Plugged to shore power. I'm pretty sure both were started due the Insulation Displacement Connections in the outlets. I've repaired more of those I can remember. Many burned though the wiring without catching anything else on fire.

 

[CliffordK]

Fundamentally I don't think building codes have changed in 40+ years.

Cover the inside of the garage with 5/8" Sheetrock. Not enough to stop a fire from spreading, but only to slow it down a bit.

A few changes are GFCIs, AFCIs, centralized smoke detectors, etc.

The new centralized smoke detectors might help detect a fault early. Otherwise, a garage fire still takes down the whole house.

One could build a garage that would withstand two side-by-side Tesla fires. Or a biodiesel reactor fire if you want. Perhaps some damage to the garage, but the house would be fine.

I would think 8" of concrete on the 6 walls (including ceiling/floor) would be sufficient. Perhaps add some insulation like rock wool, or kiln bricks.

I'm not sure all EV batteries are equally fire prone. And some battery packs will survive a vehicle fire. So, the EV world could also use some regulation.

Perhaps also more research into putting out EV fires.

One could add tow hooks to the Tesla if one wants to get close enough to throw on a cable or chain, and to yank it somewhere safe. But, by the time one is ready to tow it, it may already be too late.

I've been parking my non-Tesla EV under a tree. 110V charging rather than 220V charging. However, there would be times mid August when a fire outside of the house might be worse than on inside the house.

 

[3930dave]

I'm not sure all EV batteries are equally fire prone. And some battery packs will survive a vehicle fire. So, the EV world could also use some regulation.

Doing some light-reading lately, was going thru some Euro news, checking on their continued used of dunk-tanks.....

Among those recent reports, was an article that touched on regulating JUST standardizing HV disconnect placement and identification....... which was immediately rejected as it might "negatively impact the global competitiveness of Euro EV OEMs".

Which ^ caused my mind to drift back to the actuarial and other calculations done @ Ford, Back When, which deemed it cheaper to kill people, that put that low-cost correction into the Pinto tank design. Rien sa change....

I'm unfortunate enough to work for a company where the main culture revolves around Make No Decision, Take No Action in general...... so I have little/no faith that this slightly complex (brain-surgery, in the case of my Company) issue that this thread pertains to will be dealt with at all, let alone pro-actively.....

EVs are hardly new.... Jay has at least one really old one, and a buddy of my Dad's (served in the Canadian Army WWII) described them as common, London UK, circa 1940. While some people may oversimplify my comments as Anti-EV, I'm really just in Evaluation Mode..... in the case of this thread, to do with a looming situation @ work.

Of what has been produced in recent times, the design that suited me the best was the Chevy Volt, but the ICist Ghad has terminated that one.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Perhaps also more research into putting out EV fires.

Looks like the latest is using a pick to penetrated the HV pack, so that high pressure water can be injected into the pack....

Specialized equipment, easiest to do with the vehicle not on it's wheels (normal rest position)...... even if it works, there's a lot of extra Moving Pieces......

Any which way.... an EV fire takes extra resources.... IF available, at a minimum, means that those resources are tied up and not available to fight "normal" fires......

Robbing Peter, to Pay Paul..... yep, that sounds like @ Work, to me......

Rgds, D.

 

[ponytug]

@3930dave I think that you and @CliffordK touch on some great issues. I do think that when something new rolls out, it is genuinely very hard to foresee all the unintended consequences.

I like the suggestion of increasing the Sheetrock thickness to increase the fire resistance. Living in a rural area, I tend to think that either I put the fire out, or it is self limiting, or whatever is burning will be a total write off. I'm a fan of our local fire departments (plural), but half an hour is a long, long, time in fire terms.

Note to self to work on increasing water storage...

All the best,

Peter

 

[Too many Kubotas]

One could build a garage that would withstand two side-by-side Tesla fires.

I dunno. That closest steel I-beam, about 18 inches tall and quite thick, is obviously bent from the heat. The far one survived much better.

Yep, there was a Tesla under the bent one.

 

[3930dave]

I dunno. That closest steel I-beam, about 18 inches tall and quite thick, is obviously bent from the heat. The far one survived much better.

Yep, there was a Tesla under the bent one.View attachment 827067

What do the Software guys say..... It's not a Bug, It's a Feature !

So... in a post-apocalyptic world..... EVs could serve as a One-Time-Use-Forge, for roving blacksmiths ! They burn for hours/days.... could probably get a a lot of metal-bending done...

Rgds, D.

 

[CliffordK]

I dunno. That closest steel I-beam, about 18 inches tall and quite thick, is obviously bent from the heat. The far one survived much better.

Yep, there was a Tesla under the bent one.View attachment 827067

Is that a photo from Hawaii.

So, a wildfire, not a Tesla fire. So, the whole house would have burnt independent of an EV parked in the garage, and the heat came from far more than an EV.

One issue is the duration. The wildfire burns for hours, although the burn over may be relatively short. But still a lot of heat on all sides of the beams.

If we can build a Space Shuttle that can survive 3000 °F reentry, then we could design a structure that could withstand a car fire, whether it is 100% passive, or also includes active elements such as sprinklers, or cooling pipes.

Australia is building their fire trucks to withstand wildfire burnovers, or at least saving the entire crew inside the truck. Lots of water.

Nonetheless, if one has a $500K house, and a less expensive garage. Design it so the car damages the garage, but doesn't also take out the house.

 

[CliffordK]

Looks like the latest is using a pick to penetrated the HV pack, so that high pressure water can be injected into the pack....

Specialized equipment, easiest to do with the vehicle not on it's wheels (normal rest position)...... even if it works, there's a lot of extra Moving Pieces......

Any which way.... an EV fire takes extra resources.... IF available, at a minimum, means that those resources are tied up and not available to fight "normal" fires......

Robbing Peter, to Pay Paul..... yep, that sounds like @ Work, to me......

Rgds, D.

Most EVs have a built in cooling system for the battery pack. It likely gets damaged quickly during a runaway heating event. But, perhaps it could be designed to push all the onboard radiator water into the pack, then allow an external hookup if the pipes would be designed to endure at least for some time.

As far as extra resources. I hope that most fire departments spend more time waiting for the next call than actively fighting fires. One of the reasons they are also doing some paramedic jobs.

Hardening a house against garage fires would help prevent a number of fires including gasoline vehicles burning as mentioned earlier in the thread. Using the garage as a workshop?

 

[CliffordK]

EVs are hardly new.... Jay has at least one really old one, and a buddy of my Dad's (served in the Canadian Army WWII) described them as common, London UK, circa 1940. While some people may oversimplify my comments as Anti-EV, I'm really just in Evaluation Mode..... in the case of this thread, to do with a looming situation @ work.

EVs have been around for over a century. However, the big change has been the move from lead acid batteries in one form or another to higher energy density batteries.

There was an issue with laptop computer fires a few years ago, but I think that has largely been resolved.

However, society still needs to look at the thousands of cells that make up modern EV battery packs.

Gasoline car fires along the road are probably more common than EV fires, but it is the EV fires that make the news.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

Is that a photo from Hawaii.

So, a wildfire, not a Tesla fire. So, the whole house would have burnt independent of an EV parked in the garage, and the heat came from far more than an EV.

One issue is the duration. The wildfire burns for hours, although the burn over may be relatively short. But still a lot of heat on all sides of the beams.

Nonetheless, if one has a $500K house, and a less expensive garage. Design it so the car damages the garage, but doesn't also take out the house.

Well, it was my old house in California, not Hawaii, but that part doesn't really matter.

The wildfire that ended up taking out the house a day after the fire blew over, and the following day the garage, apparently having left embers in both. So technically it was a wildfire that started the separate house and garage fires.

It wasn't a $500K house, but the garage was bigger About 2,300 sq. ft. if memory serves me. And when my ex found out I was having a garage built that it was larger than the house, well, that was kinda the start of the divorce. Either way, in the background of the photo is what was left of the house. Nothing.

I don't know what else they had in the garage, but the fact remains that the beam above the Tesla fared much worse than the other one.

 

[sd455dan]

EVs have been around for over a century. However, the big change has been the move from lead acid batteries in one form or another to higher energy density batteries.

There was an issue with laptop computer fires a few years ago, but I think that has largely been resolved.

However, society still needs to look at the thousands of cells that make up modern EV battery packs.

Gasoline car fires along the road are probably more common than EV fires, but it is the EV fires that make the news.

It is going to take some time but I would hope that in the next ten years Battery tech will improve to the point that solid state or at least a much safer less fire prone battery will be the norm. At which point when the LI batteries no longer meet the 70% or so charge holding can be recycled and replaced with a safer non burn hazard style.

 

[tradosaurus]

Is that a photo from Hawaii.

So, a wildfire, not a Tesla fire. So, the whole house would have burnt independent of an EV parked in the garage, and the heat came from far more than an EV.

One issue is the duration. The wildfire burns for hours, although the burn over may be relatively short. But still a lot of heat on all sides of the beams.

If we can build a Space Shuttle that can survive 3000 °F reentry, then we could design a structure that could withstand a car fire, whether it is 100% passive, or also includes active elements such as sprinklers, or cooling pipes.

Australia is building their fire trucks to withstand wildfire burnovers, or at least saving the entire crew inside the truck. Lots of water.

Nonetheless, if one has a $500K house, and a less expensive garage. Design it so the car damages the garage, but doesn't also take out the house.

If that was the damage in Hawaii I have questions why there are trees unburnt near houses that are burnt to the ground.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

The ones to the right are pepper trees, which burn quite well, and should indicated that the fire front came through somewhat quickly. Which makes sense since there was good clearance to the northeast...where the Santa Ana winds generally come from.

Don't know if they survived, but looking at Google Earth, they're gone now. Could have been part of the overzealous cleanup process they require. The myoporum seems to have made it, though.

 

[not2old]

If that was the damage in Hawaii I have questions why there are trees unburnt near houses that are burnt to the ground.

We just went through a wildfire here. (Bush Creek east) A lot of houses are burnt to just ashes while lots of trees nearby only had the needles burnt. Power poles seemed to burn more than the trees . Difficult to understand why.

 

[3930dave]

EVs have been around for over a century. However, the big change has been the move from lead acid batteries in one form or another to higher energy density batteries.

There was an issue with laptop computer fires a few years ago, but I think that has largely been resolved.

However, society still needs to look at the thousands of cells that make up modern EV battery packs.

Gasoline car fires along the road are probably more common than EV fires, but it is the EV fires that make the news.

There is old Nordic saying I like; it translates something like "You can get used to anything, even a Hanging....."

Gasoline use predates all of us; that's part of why we don't notice the background issues as much. I've posted elsewhere about a gasoline tanker fire, on a major Canuck highway..... I know that stretch of road..... you're driving on a multi-lane unidirectional road at night, when you see a river of fire, rolling down the road towards you..... might even be enough to get people to glance away from their phones !!!

Even compressed-air comes with hazards.... all forms of significant stored-energy do.

We notice the EV issue because: EV's are relatively new, the fires are spectacular, and not easy to fight even with the latest tools (which most fire-depts don't have). To access the pack to fight the fire, videos I've seen involved jacking the car somehow..... even for fire-fighters with their full battle-rattle on, not easy to do with a fire that hot. Thinking a heavy grappling hook, over the top of the vehicle and rammed into the opposite side (or just hook the window) to flip the vehicle on it's roof might be worth testing.....

Gasoline fires are pretty well understood..... small-car goes up..... foam it...... road is clogged with debris and needs cleanup, but is contained fairly quickly and decisively.

Many households are more at risk from Li fires from cheapo scooters, bikes, etc, than a name brand EV... but the energy capacity in an EV vehicle battery pack shouldn't be ignored, and can't be, when it goes rogue.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Most EVs have a built in cooling system for the battery pack. It likely gets damaged quickly during a runaway heating event. But, perhaps it could be designed to push all the onboard radiator water into the pack, then allow an external hookup if the pipes would be designed to endure at least for some time.

There are a lot of things that COULD be done (and legislated) to mitigate these risks.... but we need to look @ where the market is @....

Through risk, effort, and a huge amount of money, Tesla took first-mover advantage, and seems to be keeping it, for now at least. Everybody else is playing catch-up. Like I referenced in another post, the last thing these companies want to be slowed down with is safety-requirements..... and in the (Western) obsession to EV the roads, IMO the regulatory agencies are taking a somewhat hands-off (orders from above ? ) approach, for the moment.

As much as my personal focus is tech, I had to learn to pay attention to how money/business factors usually dominate what does / does not happen.....

Just having standardized HV identification and shutoff points would be (like the NHRA figured out, when I was a pup) a good start, but I don't think we are even there yet...... I would like to be proven wrong though.

Those of us who work on ICE know that you can make good sparks with 12v.... the HV in these systems can stop your heart.

Rgds, D.

 

[CliffordK]

We just went through a wildfire here. (Bush Creek east) A lot of houses are burnt to just ashes while lots of trees nearby only had the needles burnt. Power poles seemed to burn more than the trees . Difficult to understand why.

A number of species like Douglas Fir and Ponderosa Pines, as well as the Redwoods and Sequoia are relatively fire resistant, at least for the larger trees. Some may have bark that is several inches thick, that will get scorched, but likely is a good enough of insulator that it will protect the critical cambium growing layer in trees.

If the needles and leaves are gone, the trees may be dead. If some green needles remain at the top of the tree, it may recover.

Fire is a natural part of the environment, cleaning out undergrowth, and even germinating seeds. In some places most of the larger trees survive. In other places with hotter flames, and smaller trees, they all die.

However, human homes built in the deep woods and forest fires don't mix particularly well.

I'm not sure about Canada, but we've had two centuries of forest mismanagement here which makes the fires worse. Although there is no easy answer as to what is good forest management. Clearly cutting down all the big trees is bad. Total suppression of forest fires just makes the next big fire worse. Yet, large fires encroaching on human habitation is bad.

Perhaps there would be examples in nature how 4" of tree bark can protect a couple of century old tree from fires, but a thin layer of gypsum sheetrock only gives a momentary delay to the fire spreading.

 

[3930dave]

We just went through a wildfire here. (Bush Creek east) A lot of houses are burnt to just ashes while lots of trees nearby only had the needles burnt. Power poles seemed to burn more than the trees . Difficult to understand why.

Old poles (very) were treated with creosote, but many/most should have been replaced by now.

Definitely much lower moisture content in a power pole, compared to a live tree.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

I'm not sure about Canada, but we've had two centuries of forest mismanagement here which makes the fires worse. Although there is no easy answer as to what is good forest management. Clearly cutting down all the big trees is bad. Total suppression of forest fires just makes the next big fire worse. Yet, large fires encroaching on human habitation is bad.

i posted this thread, a few years back:

https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/threads/bc-francois-lake-fire.421084/

I'd say Canada is at least as bad....

I think it was in the Post article (or another around that time)..... described a fire-crew (govt) sitting in a crew cab watching a 80 y/o local rancher clear the road in front of them, by herself, as they weren't allowed to run chainsaws after dark.

Sums up where we are..... I grew up in Ottawa, decided to leave as a young adult...... I expect Incompetence from govt, but it's not hard to argue there is something else and worse @ play at times....

I've always done my own research, but esp.today, with emerging tech etc, blindly believing govt oversight and legislation is going to protect you..... not even A Fool's Game.....

Rgds, D.