Our forest fire precautions

   / Our forest fire precautions #21  
RobertN said:
Did you drop by Station-83? They might be able to direct you, and give you some ideas. Sounds like you're in their first out area.

Hey Robert,
The Engine 83 guys are very helpful ... I would love to have their big green tanker for my place! Can't say enough about how well those fellows perform during fires. I stopped in there today to ask their views about the Barricade Gel products ... they think it is worthwhile, but the emphasis was on access and defensible space..

I have been hyperventilating about fire preparations and although I have some short term fixes, there is a lot more to do in order to ensure Engine 83 and company have good access and egress. If they can get in but not out, then it becomes a different decision matrix for them and for me.

THANKS. Some smoke we have now !!!
 
   / Our forest fire precautions
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Hotwheels said:
If they can get in but not out, then it becomes a different decision matrix for them and for me.
Some smoke we have now !!!

News tonight said 800+ fires started from Saturday's lightning and almost 100 of them are yet to be manned due to available manpower and resources.

The smoke is terrible. We had a small fire four/five miles from here but the volunteers and USFS got it contained today. Bless the firemen. Several bigger fires in the area but none too close to us to be immediately threatening.

I have a circle drive around the house so easy access/egress. But I do have an automatic gate opener and that could stop/delay the fire engine at the gate. It's been on my mind since I installed the opener to put a "break glass in emergency" cabinet with the keypad code and an over-ride key in the cabinet. The fence and gate are to keep animals in more than keep out intruders...but neighbor kids...still not sure about the cabinet. I went to the fire station today to discuss Barricade but they were out doin' their job. I'll ask about the gate access issue too when I can get a hold of the chief.

Did you find Dave in Placerville knowledgeable and helpful? I still have a few questions regarding Barricade. I was going to go over there today but they are closed Sun/Mon. Maybe tomorrow.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #23  
RedDirt,

Yep, smoke is awful -- can't wait for fire season to be over!

Dave is very knowledgeable and helpful. He has a perspective like all of us do, but I benefited by a long talk with him. He lives in a high risk area and seems to have a good understanding of the equipment and materials. I plan to visit him this week to get a couple more hoses and who knows what else ... the pump end of things still has me confused. Could buy the expensive Davey pumps, but I think there might be another alternative, but just have yet to find it and maybe it does not exist.



Good luck!
JR
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #24  
Here in Paradise today it's like sitting in a fogbank! Fortunately there's little to no wind. A dozen firetrucks just drove uphill past our office ... couldn't read the names but they were all from out of this area. One evac center is by our house and was declared "full" and now evacuees are directed to Las Plumas HS in Oroville.

It was just reported that our fires are #3 on the state's list.... meaning more help. The worst news is the predicted dry lightening for Thursday/Friday.

Access and defensibility are my top priorities too. I posted these before and after photos of part of my driveway on TBN in September '06. My goal was "fire truck friendly" and it was specifically for times like this. As it was "before" I'd have not blamed any firefighters for not wanting to get to my home.

Phil
 

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   / Our forest fire precautions #25  
Phils said:
Here in Paradise today it's like sitting in a fogbank! Fortunately there's little to no wind. A dozen firetrucks just drove uphill past our office ... couldn't read the names but they were all from out of this area. One evac center is by our house and was declared "full" and now evacuees are directed to Las Plumas HS in Oroville.

It was just reported that our fires are #3 on the state's list.... meaning more help. The worst news is the predicted dry lightening for Thursday/Friday.

Access and defensibility are my top priorities too. I posted these before and after photos of part of my driveway on TBN in September '06. My goal was "fire truck friendly" and it was specifically for times like this. As it was "before" I'd have not blamed any firefighters for not wanting to get to my home.

Phil

I think rural folks have more leeway to prepare for fires and fire fighting...

I have had the police pay me a visit because "Someone" heard the sound of a chain saw and wanted it investigated or on several occasions for scraping the city mandated fire trail running through my land...

I can't even imagine what it would be like to be able to take out a dead tree or disc the soil around my home without a visit from the city...

Owning Acreage in the City Limit is turning out to be more of a liability every year...
 
   / Our forest fire precautions
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Hotwheels said:
RedDirt,

Yep, smoke is awful -- can't wait for fire season to be over!

Dave is very knowledgeable and helpful. He has a perspective like all of us do, but I benefited by a long talk with him. He lives in a high risk area and seems to have a good understanding of the equipment and materials. I plan to visit him this week to get a couple more hoses and who knows what else ... the pump end of things still has me confused. Could buy the expensive Davey pumps, but I think there might be another alternative, but just have yet to find it and maybe it does not exist.

Good luck!
JR

Grrr, can't get a hold of Dave to buy the Barricade. If you see him this week tell him I am anxious and he should call so I can find out his address and when to come. I have left him a couple phone messages. In a day or so I'm going to give up on him and drive to Ukiah to the next closest dealer (if I can get through the Colusa and Lake Co fires along the way). I have an unusual break in my work load. If I don't do this soon I may not get another chance for a while.

What are your decision obstacles for the pump setup? Volume? Pressure? Cost? What's the elevation difference and distance between your pond and point of discharge. Seem like you need something in the order of minimum 10gpm, 40-50psi to apply Barricade effectively. If you have an emergency generator an eclectic pump could be a reasonable alternative to a gas powered setup that could "make-do" until you have a complete and coordinated system/strategy worked out.

I need to think about a back-up booster pump. We have town water normally at 15-20gpm and 70-85psi static but that will fluctuate dramatically in a high use fire incident. Then there is a back-up water source to consider. You're lucky, you've already got a pond.

What's ironic is we put all this fine preparation, equipment and capital into a system we hope we never use!
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #27  
Too bad you did not have a pool on your property , but the pond works just as well. The gel sounds like a great way to go. Check out Northern Tools for pumps. They have some decent pumps. The fire station I use to volunteer at bought two Honda light weight pumps. They seem too work well. I know you can find a decent high Pressure Pump from Northern for about $500. You will get plenty of pressure out of it. Do you all have any pictures of the conditions out there? I never got my red card to actually go out of state. So I hae dealt with outside fires in PA most of my life. I feel bad for all you have to deal with. It seems like the seasons are getting worse and worse. Wish I could be more help.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #28  
RedDirt,
I know that Dave is VERY busy with all the fire activity. I sent him an email and he replied by phone about 7pm this evening and spent 1/2 hour or so with me going through pump options ... not all that straightforward. I would persist with him because he is very knowledgeable and very helpful, but he is more or less a one man show. I think he knows more than anyone I have talked to on the phone. I have talked to the fellow in Ukiah too and he seems first rate too, but I hope you give Dave another shot.

I am looking at a pump to spray the Barricade from my pond or future water source, then I hope to have the time to turn a valve to start a sprinkler system. The fire pump and irrigation pump are different but overlapping solutions.

Dave suggested I start by thinking about how long I want the sprinkler system to operate. Seems I read somewhere that after the big fire passes the threat is just as big from embers and such, so maybe 3 plus hours after leaving. If I have a 5000 gallon tank and 4 sprinkers at 4 or so gallons a minute, then that is about 5 hours of protection. More sprinklers or more gallons per minute will make a difference how long the water lasts. So, what Dave calls a "gusher" pump that has a little lower pressure to feed the irrigation might be the right thing. But, to get the Barricade on fast takes 70psi at 15gpm with the Fast Atak applicator as opposed to the applicator I bought that I can use with a 3/4 inch garden hose and much lower pressure. When you start trying to find a high pressure pump that puts out enough gpm to run a hose and then an irrigation system, things get more complicated for me to understand. But, seems as if the Darley David portable fire pumps, although pricey, are designed for the task.

In the next few days I am sorting out the details of what I want the sprinkler system to do and then work backwards for the pump.

Charlie, I will try to post a pic of conditions near my place or at least from my driveway looking at smoke from a fire a year or so ago. For what I know right now, and believe me that is not much, I think I may get the most value out of the Barricade gel rather than the foam.

This is a learning process for me and I have more questions than answers, but glad to see others are interested in trying to do what we can as homeowners.
 

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   / Our forest fire precautions
  • Thread Starter
#29  
Hotwheels,
Dave returned my call later in the day. Too late to go yesterday but I will go to his shop this afternoon, about 2.5 hr drive from here.

I wish I had your dilemma regarding the pump options. Right now we have no back-up water beyond a few filled garbage cans. Good luck figuring it out; seems like you are on a good path to work with expectations then back to the pump.

Good news on the longevity of the Barricade product. I have been in email correspondence with Barricade factory. They are very responsive. They won't commit to an indefinite shelf life (naturally) but have product as old as their company that they still use for demos. I don't know how long they have been around but I'm finding out. The gel is like paint and it will settle. "Proper" storage requires no freeze/thaw cycles, no exposure to extreme heat, and agitation or shaking every six months. They recommend doing a test shoot each year on product over three years old and thought it OK to then assume if the test is good, other product of the same age and storage would be good also. This makes a huge difference in my commitment to purchase this product. If it was dead and useless after 3-5 years I'd be less likely to assume the restocking cost.

This has been a good discussion for me. Led to a reassessment of our preparations. We looked at our outdated Evac lists and updated them. We made 10 minute, 30 minute, and 2 hour evacuation lists. Each list has person's initial with their responsibility. This will save overlap times and focus each person's efforts. There are two printed lists so each person can carry their own and refer to it as they proceed. The last page a list of 1st, 2nd, 3rd relay contacts, phone numbers, and meeting places

Except for the animals much of the stuff on the save in 10 minutes list are financial, insurance records, photos, and the like. We already had some evac stuff gathered but in updating the lists we discovered a lot more time could be saved if we did a better job. Since a lot is just stored anyway, but in various spots, we gathered it all together in a central location along with a packed travel bag of clothes and personal gear for each of us and other emergency grab-and-go stuff like the walkie-talkies. flashlights, batteries, etc.

We intend to do a dress rehearsal this weekend for the 10 minute scenario.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #31  
Hello RedDirt,
Glad you reached Dave, but 2.5 hours is a long drive! The news about Barricade shelf life is helpful and reassuring.
If you are coming anytime soon and you have some extra time, PM me and I can have you over for lunch or meet you in Placerville if you have time.
Best
JR
 
   / Our forest fire precautions
  • Thread Starter
#32  
Ronbo,
If I need to evacuate, for me, the tractor will go into the gel/foamed garage or shop. In fact I'll put the sailboat, motorcycle and other car & truck we can't drive off into protected buildings. I'm going to check this strategy with my local fire chief at my soonest opportunity but Dave, the Barricade dealer, agreed with me. Before I had the home foam protection resource I was going to leave them in the biggest clear spot I've got, our smallish lawn. But storing in the foam treated buildings has several benefits.

When fireman arrive and see the efforts we have gone through to protect our property and buildings they will give us better attention than say, someone that has done little or no protection and no amount of effort on their part would save that building. Secondly a well prepared and foam protected building is just as likely, or more likely, to survive a wild land fire than the tractor out in the open that is standing naked to the heat and firebrands. Thirdly the tractor out in the open causes the firemen to pay attention to it in addition to the structures and possibly divert resources from the structure should the tractor become threatening.

Of course there is the down side that should the shop get fully involved the tractor would add significantly to the volume of hazardous materials stored there. At that point though, with acetylene tank, paints, solvents, lubricants and an abundance of other flammable stuff the shop is a goner anyway.

Another option is to put them all on the lawn area and gel foam them. Yes, you can use Barricade foam on vehicles. Right now it would take a couple more gallons more foam than I have.

Hotwheels,
The drive to Placerville was worth it for the hour I got discussing fire protection strategies and options with Dave. I left with a Barricade home protection kit, an additional case of Barricade, a class A "Foam-Fast" kit w/optional 9gpm nozzle and a fitting I needed to tap my home hydrant system into the municipal hydrant at my property corner. I'm also adding an ebay 2.5in wye at the hydrant so I don't shut them out (and [hope] they don't shut me off). I also left thinking I should also be taking yet another case of Barricade and that cute little Honda booster pump he showed me. This is getting similar to owning a tractor...always something else that you "need".

Dave also recommended running a gallon of the Barricade for stock over three years. I questioned why a gallon and he said I wouldn't want to store a possible contaminated a partial gallon thinking it was good. Easy for him to justify...but I'm too cheap. I'll try transferring a quart into an empty container and draft out of that. The opened container will be my "test" batch for the next years and I'll mark it to use last should I ever need to deploy all the foam. He also recommended practicing to see pressures, coverage, method of application, etc. Good idea but again, at $60 a pop, I'll use a partial gallon.

I'm revising my ten and thirty minute evac procedures to include getting the Barricade and "A" foam units to the driveway so the firemen can use them. My time for attempting application myself doesn't occur until I have over 30 minutes. It's my prime effort on my two hour list while wife attends to other exposures.

Thanks for the invite, I don't get that way often. If I need to call on Dave again I'll certainly get in touch.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #33  
Red Dirt; that gel sounds great. They do not seem to push much of it on the east coast. I guess just due to the fact our fires do not travel as fast as the ones out west. It is nice seeing the fire department offering as much advice. Also as a firefighter; it is nice to see homeowners educating themselves and helping make our job a little more simple. Especially with the evacuation plans. You have a nice set up there. The booster pump would be a nice addition but like you said it is like having a tractor. You always need something else.:D
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #34  
RedDirt,
Glad you made and have some protection! I am still working on the pump side of things ... I have been bogged down with work, so I hope to get the rest of my fire prep done next week and hope nothing happens in between. At least I have the Barricade and that is a help.

Ever thought about a pretreatment spray of retardant? It might be a waste of money since I have reasonable defensible space, but I am thinking through as many options as come up just to see how they fit my situation.

If you get this way again, I'll buy you lunch!
JR
 
   / Our forest fire precautions
  • Thread Starter
#35  
charliepff,
I am impressed with the Barricade gel/foam. I had not heard of it until Hotwheels posted it although my wife knew just what I was talking about. She's known about it for a year or so. Go figure. If the need arises I hope I get enough time to deploy it; I'd feel much better about my prospects if the house and shop had a coat of foam applied before I left.

A downside of Barricade is when given the chance, authorities call for evacuation far in advance of eminent danger. I'm afraid the Barricade will likely loose it's effectiveness by the time it is needed.

The best protection is still defensible space. I'll spend some time this weekend fine tuning the "little stuff" like doing a better clean below the decks and house corners where firebrands can grab hold. I may make some tape-on covers for my foundation vents to keep them from blowing into the crawlspace.

Defensible space is also the first thing the firemen will look at when evaluating the commitment of their resources to save your home.

We're slated to get more lightening; probably tomorrow. My county still has 30 fires going, 7000 acres burned. Just north in Shasta county there are almost 150 fires still going with 30,000 acres burned this week.

It seems half the country is flooded this summer. But we cheered last night with the prospect of getting some "moisture". The weather guy said humidity was up to 23%!

Hotwheels,
Yeah, my work ramped up again too and quickly. I got a two day break that I stretched into two and a half. I'd rather be doing more fire prep.

I have not considered a retardant coating. I know nothing about it. Dave said they used a special fire resistant paint on their buildings. I may look into something like that next time I need to paint.

Your idea of timed sprinklers sounds inviting but to be effective the valves would need to be either mechanical or battery powered so they were not plugged into PG&E . Common landscape valves are 24vac, wonder if you can get a DC outfit and wire them to car batteries. The task becomes much more complicated (and way more expensive) if you would also need to turn on pumps.

I got in a quick visit with the local fire chief this afternoon. They don't use Barricade and when I mentioned leaving it outside for them to apply he said it would be most likely up to the responding crew. I'm going to store the whole batch on a rolling cart and put a sign to them on it with quickie instructions so I can just push it out the door as I am leaving. This assumes I haven't had the time to apply it myself, ie a 10 or 30 minute evacuation.

He verified my plan to place vehicles inside buildings. For them it's all about exposures and two buildings are easier for them to protect than those plus vehicles outside.

Regarding my automatic gate he said to leave it open. They'd get in anyway and leaving the gate open will cause me no damage and give them no delay or deterrent to enter.

I think I will get a little booster pump in case my pressure drops too much to apply the Barricade. But I'm now looking at the $150 1HP pumps from Northern rather than the expensive ones from Dave. My wallet's a bit anemic after my trip to Dave's shop.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #36  
The booster pump may not be a bad idea. I know we look at defensible space alot around here. It is usually the first thing we look at to educate the home owner about. Usually if we are talking to the home owner her it is too late. They already had some kind of incident or close call that we are there. The property we live on worries me because we have all feilds around us except for the back. The back is very thick unmaintained woods. The good thing is the house is about 150ft. away from this. So I use the bx two thin thw woods out and place some burms inbetweent the feilds. This hopefully will hold the fire in the feild and help create a densible space. I usually take the tractor through a few times a year. Now we have the neighbor round bailing so it is keeping the grass down. It seems even on the east coast though it is getting drier and drier every season.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #37  
RedDirt said:
I may make some tape-on covers for my foundation vents to keep them from blowing into the crawlspace.


My parent's house in Mt Shasta had aluminum vent covers to keep freezing air from under the house. They are easy to install and remove and are held on with little spring-tensioned hooks. Might be easier and better than expecting tape to endure heat.

Phil
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #38  
Great suggestion about buying some fire hose.....I have a wharf hydrant
and 4" main at 74psi, 5K gallons, so it would be valuable.

As for water tanks/cisterns, the building code specifically exempts tanks
up to 5K gallons; otherwise you need structural engineering for the tank
and foundation. Mine is site-built of concrete, above grade with all pipes
buried.

I have been considering exterior sprinklers and/or foam systems, too. Last
Sat I went to Santa Cruz for a retirement party and witnessed many
lightning strikes on the way thru the mtns. There were a number of fire
fighters at the party, but none had ever seen a residential foam system.
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #39  
dfkrug said:
Great suggestion about buying some fire hose.....I have a wharf hydrant
and 4" main at 74psi, 5K gallons, so it would be valuable.

As for water tanks/cisterns, the building code specifically exempts tanks
up to 5K gallons; otherwise you need structural engineering for the tank
and foundation. Mine is site-built of concrete, above grade with all pipes
buried.

I need to find the tank exemption info... where should I look?
 
   / Our forest fire precautions #40  
When I built my house, we were on a version of the UBC (CA Bldg Code)
valid for that year (1997), and I remember it was in the building code, not
the plumbing code. I had to read up on numerous sections at the time and
I always used the copy in the library, as I did not want to pay the hundreds
of $ for a complete set. I can not recall the section, but this is one aspect
of the code that your bldg dept may be familiar with. It is why often two
5K gal tanks are installed, rather than one 10K gal tank where 10K gal total
is required. The 10K gal tank requires an engineered and inspected
foundation.
 

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