ordering trailer -sanity check please

[meburdick]

I don't think that's true for a gooseneck or 5th-wheel. Bumper pulls have 10-15% tongue weight. Gooseneck and 5th-wheel have 25%. Don't ask me why, though.

Interesting that a GN would be *higher*... I would expect it to be lower since the attachment point is further from the axles. Must have something to do with either the extra weight of the trailer to provide the GN setup, the location of the axles in relation to the trailer length (further forward?), or both.

I don't know much about them, though, and I was commenting on weight bearing for a bumper-pull setup.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Interesting that a GN would be *higher*... I would expect it to be lower since the attachment point is further from the axles. Must have something to do with either the extra weight of the trailer to provide the GN setup, the location of the axles in relation to the trailer length (further forward?), or both.

My guess is that it is because a GN attaches to the truck closer to the axle, so leverage is less of an issue. Not sure why less tongue weight would be a problem, though. Bumper pulls are typically 10-15%; GN are typically 15-25%. So why can't a GN go down to 10%?

 

[meburdick]

My guess is that it is because a GN attaches to the truck closer to the axle, so leverage is less of an issue. Not sure why less tongue weight would be a problem, though. Bumper pulls are typically 10-15%; GN are typically 15-25%. So why can't a GN go down to 10%?

My *guess* would be that, since the trailer is capable of more directly placing load onto the truck axles, the trailer is designed to reflect this. Dropping pin weight on a GN to the 10% area could mean that there's more weight than appropriate behind the rear trailer axle, causing a poor towing condition.

 

[jdonovan]

You are making broad-stroke statements that are NOT accurate. I have already shown your generalized statement to be incorrect when you said that a WDH was required based solely on size and weight.

While your "answer" was correct, your reasoning was not. I am trying to point out that you "did the math" for him and make a generalized statement that doesn't hold water. Specifically, for this posted, with this trailer, and this tow vehicle, and WDH is required for a bumper-pull trailer.

No my broad statement is accurate, and based on well known data. With 1 exception, there is no manufacturer of light duty trucks for sale in the US that does not require a WDH for loads above 5,000 lbs gross / 500lbs tongue. The only exception I know of is F350 with dual rear wheels, where the limit is 6,000 lbs.

My truck is not rated to pull a trailer that heavy. If stay within the 10k rating, though, I do not need a WDH because my truck is rated for the tongue weight. The need for a WDH for a particular trailer / load is based on the TOW VEHICLE'S max tongue weight rating, and NOT something that can be ascertained solely from knowing the size and weight of a trailer.

Your tundra should be rated for 5000lbs trailer/500lbs tongue weight when equipped with the factory hitch/tow package. Yes it can tow more, but not without a WDH sized for the trailer and tongue weights.

This is an incredibly important point to understand because it allows for the purchase and use of the CORRECT WDH as it will be rated to handle a specific amount of tongue weight.

Absolutely, you need to select the right components for the trailer you plan to tow.

 

[bigtiller]

I have a 3/4 ton GMC that has a sticker on the hitch saying it is good for 1000 pounds tongue weight and 7500 trailer weight.

 

[jdonovan]

but to know about weight carrying, or distributing you'll have to goto the owners manual or towing guide for that model.

 

[meburdick]

No my broad statement is accurate, and based on well known data. With 1 exception, there is no manufacturer of light duty trucks for sale in the US that does not require a WDH for loads above 5,000 lbs gross / 500lbs tongue. The only exception I know of is F350 with dual rear wheels, where the limit is 6,000 lbs.




Your tundra should be rated for 5000lbs trailer/500lbs tongue weight when equipped with the factory hitch/tow package. Yes it can tow more, but not without a WDH sized for the trailer and tongue weights.

Once again, broad statements that are WRONG because they don't include defining information. The REASON that Class IV hitches are rated with a max of 500lbs tongue weight is because of the way they are bolted to the vehicle. My truck uses a frame-integrated hitch the gains the bulk of its vertical support by being inserted THROUGH the frame. My tongue weight is NOT limited to 500lbs, my max trailer weight is limited to 9800lbs due to the options and trim level of my truck.

Clearly, we're on opposite sides of this discussion. I'll stay on the "Less" on side.

 

[CompactTractorFan]

No my broad statement is accurate, and based on well known data. With 1 exception, there is no manufacturer of light duty trucks for sale in the US that does not require a WDH for loads above 5,000 lbs gross / 500lbs tongue. The only exception I know of is F350 with dual rear wheels, where the limit is 6,000 lbs.

Some of the Fords with the 6.7 are higher now. Around 8k IIRC.

Also, the 2011+ GM HD trucks do not require a WD hitch. :thumbsup:

 

[jenkinsph]

I use F250 and F550 trucks to pull my trailers and find that the WDH is very helpful for the F250. The F550 seems to handle very well with the 12k and 14k trailers without the WDH using just the Class 5 receiver. From my own experiences with the F250 I would plan on using the WDH and steering stabilizer on all bumper pulls 10k and up.

Most GN and 5th wheel trailers I have used were setup for about 25% tongue weight, a good reason for keeping it near this rating can include maintaining enough traction on the tow vehicle. When you park a heavy trailer/truck combination on a slope you need enough weight on the rear axle of the tow vehicle to hold it secure. You should chock the wheels on the trailer but if driving alone you need to be able to get out and do it. Now obviously a bumper pull with a heavily loaded trailer will have some similar issues too, when you stop in a 2wd pickup you have brakes on one axle holding the entire rig. Just something to think about.

 

[meburdick]

I use F250 and F550 trucks to pull my trailers and find that the WDH is very helpful for the F250. The F550 seems to handle very well with the 12k and 14k trailers without the WDH using just the Class 5 receiver. From my own experiences with the F250 I would plan on using the WDH and steering stabilizer on all bumper pulls 10k and up.

Most GN and 5th wheel trailers I have used were setup for about 25% tongue weight, a good reason for keeping it near this rating can include maintaining enough traction on the tow vehicle. When you park a heavy trailer/truck combination on a slope you need enough weight on the rear axle of the tow vehicle to hold it secure. You should chock the wheels on the trailer but if driving alone you need to be able to get out and do it. Now obviously a bumper pull with a heavily loaded trailer will have some similar issues too, when you stop in a 2wd pickup you have brakes on one axle holding the entire rig. Just something to think about.

Can you elaborate on this? Are you referring to applying the emergency brake when the truck is parked?

 

[jenkinsph]

Can you elaborate on this? Are you referring to applying the emergency brake when the truck is parked?

Yes, when you park your emergency brake is all you have to hold truck and trailer is the truck's rear axle. Big rigs intended for full time trailering can lock up everything with air brakes.

 

[meburdick]

Gotcha. I thought that was what you were referring to but wanted to be sure.

Do any of the brake controllers have a "park and hold" mode? Mine will add trailer brakes while you're sipped and have your foot on the brake pedal, but it releases once your foot comes off of the pedal.

 

[jenkinsph]

Most light vehicles do not have any provision for holding the brakes on trailers when you exit the vehicle. All the electric drum brakes need the wheels turning to be very effective in pulling the brake shoes into contact with the drum. I wouldn't stake my life on these things holding either.

Point is the tow vehicle needs some weight or weight transferred to the rear axle to be safe on inclines.

 

[RPW]

Althougth I agree that most comments are accurate based on information given. Here's where I have a rub on these statements. Each poster has specified a particular vehicle and that's fine. In my case my manual specifies that I can tow a 13000# load on my bumper and close to 16000# with a GN. My manual doesn't really mention a WDH but it's probablly there. My comments with a GN load verses a bumper pull load is this. A GN load may not increase your pulling ability but the stability is a major factor. I much prefer GN over BP for the stability it provides. I've experienced much greater trailer sway with a BP. As such except for a smaller load I've outfited my trailer arsenal with primarily GN, I just feel safer towing. Each to there own. As far as the WDH over non is this. What you feel is comfortable for you is what matters. IMO it's ultamately up to the operator and know what they're capable of.

 

[RaydaKub]

I really wonder how they calculate whatever they put in the manuals. My dad had a '73 3/4 ton Dodge. Had a 360, 4 speed, and 4.73 rear end. I have no idea what it was rated for. Yet in about 77, he bought a gooseneck 14 foot grain trailer. I hand stacked it with wheat out of the combine one time and went straight to town. I jumped out and they weighed the combo at 29,960 lbs. This was the heaviest load I think we ever had, but it was almost always between 27,000 and 29,000 lbs. It would take a while, but it would get up to 55 ok.

Now they have these turbo diesels and rate them for a 20,000 lb trailer or less. If those diesels can't out perform that old 360, I'd be might surprised.

 

[meburdick]

Althougth I agree that most comments are accurate based on information given. Here's where I have a rub on these statements. Each poster has specified a particular vehicle and that's fine. In my case my manual specifies that I can tow a 13000# load on my bumper and close to 16000# with a GN. My manual doesn't really mention a WDH but it's probablly there. My comments with a GN load verses a bumper pull load is this. A GN load may not increase your pulling ability but the stability is a major factor. I much prefer GN over BP for the stability it provides. I've experienced much greater trailer sway with a BP. As such except for a smaller load I've outfited my trailer arsenal with primarily GN, I just feel safer towing. Each to there own. As far as the WDH over non is this. What you feel is comfortable for you is what matters. IMO it's ultamately up to the operator and know what they're capable of.

Keep in mind that a WDH is for dealing with TONGUE WEIGHT which is different than GTWR towing ratings. In order to understand if you need a WDH or not, you need to do two things:

- Calculate tongue weight. 10%-15% of the loaded trailer weight is the way to approximate, and you need to consider the *total* weight of the trailer and the cargo.
- Find the spec for your vehicle in terms of what it can handle for the tongue weight

This will get you along the path of knowing whether you need the WDH or not.

 

[Eric_Phillips]

I really wonder how they calculate whatever they put in the manuals. My dad had a '73 3/4 ton Dodge. Had a 360, 4 speed, and 4.73 rear end. I have no idea what it was rated for. Yet in about 77, he bought a gooseneck 14 foot grain trailer. I hand stacked it with wheat out of the combine one time and went straight to town. I jumped out and they weighed the combo at 29,960 lbs. This was the heaviest load I think we ever had, but it was almost always between 27,000 and 29,000 lbs. It would take a while, but it would get up to 55 ok.

Now they have these turbo diesels and rate them for a 20,000 lb trailer or less. If those diesels can't out perform that old 360, I'd be might surprised.

The issue is not usually the engine being able to pull the weight but the brakes being able to stop it.

 

[RaydaKub]

The issue is not usually the engine being able to pull the weight but the brakes being able to stop it.

OK, that part makes sense and I guess I've known that all along. This old beast had an aux brake unit plumbed in as opposed to the new all electronic units. We never had to slam on the brakes under full load, but running empty, it almost seemed to stop faster than w/o the trailer. The brakes on that trailer were outstanding.