older square baler speeeds

[Niji]

Okay...the old Ford 532 baler I've basically rebuilt is running pretty well. Even so , it is really slow. The 336 and 14T JD's I've run in the past I remember being way faster, and able to take in a fat windrow more swiftly than this rattle trap. I can't seem to get ahead of the game and get baling soon enough in the day to stay anything like ahead of my pickup crew, customers, or get more than a few hundred bales in an afternoon. It's killing me.

I think I'll sell it and invest in another baler for next season, and being on the lower end of the budget, I thought I'd see what the expert opinions are simply on the swiftness of the older square balers. It seems to me there isn't a lot of difference mechanically between many of the older machines, but, assuming knotters and everything are in decent working condition, what do you folks find to be the swifter machines? And, how many bales do y'all expect to get made in the course of an average day?

 

[farmerjim]

i run a jd 24t it has done about 600 bales in an afternoon b4. starting early enough in the day but thats a long day on the tractor, then helping the pick up crew. normally i'll try to keep it to around 400 bales max at a time just in case of a breakdown or other issues, thats running at a decent speed not pushing the envelope and not at snail pace. imo when you push the envelope you will break things maybe not at 1st but it will happen. any of the jd models 24t,214,224,336 are great machines, although a 14t may be on the small side it may be a bit of a step up from your old ford. any of the new hollands would be a great choice as well ,68,69,77,273,311,ect. basically you really can't go wrong w/ a nh or jd as their knotters are top notch and parts are still readily available.

 

[bill in ny]

back when i had a 14t, i could bale over 700 bales in an afternoon easily. that baler rarely missed a knot. i would think you're ford should be able to do better than that.

 

[jagyzf]

JD 346 was very good in it's day and was much faster than the 336. If you have to depend on 1 machine and want to be over 1000 bales, I would say spend just a little more and get a 338, 348 or a NH 575. Any of these machines will take a lot of hay, with the 348 or 575 taking it as fast as you can feed it. I know people with these units that get over 2000 on a good day. The reason for a newer machine is very simple, wear. We have a 336 and it's to the point it really needs replacement. It's been a great machine, but the bale case is now paper thin. It's had so much wear that something is always cracking, breaking and it's always when you need it the most. Hopefully either this fall or next spring we will be able o find a used 338 or 348.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

The newer balers can eat a lot of hay well. The most I have ever put through my 575 was 2300 in a single day. If I was just dropping them on the ground and picking them up with a stack wagon I could do more and wouldn't be surprised if I could bale 3k in a day if the dew wasn't there in the morning. Normally I bale 800 a day as that is all my crew wants to deal with at a time. So it isn't a long day for me and my machine.

I know the NH 326 is a good machine and would be a major step up for you without costing you a ton of money. If you start looking now you may be able to find a 320 or 326 reasonbly priced as the hay season is winding down and people will start moving equipment again.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Okay...the old Ford 532 baler I've basically rebuilt is running pretty well. Even so , it is really slow. The 336 and 14T JD's I've run in the past I remember being way faster, and able to take in a fat windrow more swiftly than this rattle trap.

assuming knotters and everything are in decent working condition, what do you folks find to be the swifter machines? And, how many bales do y'all expect to get made in the course of an average day?

If the hay is dry my IH 37 will do 4 firm bales per minute. Maybe a little more but thats about as fast as it will pick up the hay. Still, thats 240 bales an hour neglecting turns and repositioning. Its nice because it will do this comfortably on a 30HP tractor.
larry

 

[Mickey_Fx]

Might help in the discussion if you could give us some idea of what you think is holding the baler back. Baler can't handle higher ground speeds, plunger issues, knoter issues, etc.

 

[Niji]

I recently rebuilt the plunger in this baler, which was bent and twisted--there should be a few photos of that ordeal on an earlier post I put up. I replaced a bearing, sharpened knives and re-shimmed them, etc. I also replaced both bill hooks in the knotters at that time. The right knotter still misses sometimes, which I've been tweaking on still, and the left hasn't missed a knot in 1000 bales so far.

So, aside from the right knotter which isn't a total misfit, it seems to be just a matter of the baler digesting the hay, or not digesting it. I've started to rake out tiny little wind rows so I can try to keep some forward speed. If a thick row of hay goes in, it takes time to get it processed, so I slow or stop while it chomps away at it, and often at these times the bales will get a little of the accordion affect...the kind that will have the hay hanging 2 bales together as they exit the chute until one drops to the ground and pulls loose. Under slower conditions this doesn't happen. I understand that the accordion effect is usually a shimming issue, but my trouble doesn't happen at a slow rate, and the gap between the knives is pretty close to right--and I was a little afraid to push that envelope with too many shims and have a real catastrophe.

Otherwise, it seems to be running really well. I'm lucky if I break 200 in an afternoon, so even if the right knotter cost me, say, 50 bales, that's still nowhere close to what I expected from any old baler in pretty decent shape.

Please let me know if there's perhaps something else I might try. After this past week, though, I decided I've plainly got to improve the time it takes me in the field for next season, and the baler is my weak point of the operation, clearly.

 

[willt1981]

i've run a 532 baler for four years now. i cant say i've had any issues with it. i have had the slow down when the windrow has a sharp turn in it because of the hay bunching up in the rake but it can take a big windrow at a decent speed. the most i did in a day was 400 but that was kicking some in the morning, raking the 400 starting about 2, and then baling them. was done baling about 6 and then picked them up. this was steep ground too. long day. what happens with your baler? does the clutch slip (im assuming yours is like mine and has a clutch at the flywheel) when you try to go faster or pack more in? i like to have mine set to where the clutch is tight enough so that the baler will drag the tractor rpm down some if it hits a clump that isnt too big but not so tight that it wont slip if something goes in that shouldn't. you might have your heart set on getting another baler but if you dont id investigate this problem a little more. im confidant that if the hay was raked and i baled all afternoon i could bale 1500+ with mine.

 

[zzvyb6]

How about looking at it this way: My 14T plunger rate is 1 rev per second. With 13 - 14 plunges per bale for a 45 - 50 # bale, that gives me a bale per hour figure. Because of the way I cut each field, I get about 10 bales per row so I know how long its going to take before I'm too tired to think anymore about picking it up. Since my machine rarely misses a tie, these are very good reliable figures at my outfit.

So, if the Ford's chamber is similar and a flake rate is similar, shouldn't the plunger rate define how fast you can go? If it's not 1 per second, then what does it take to change it? For example, a 336 runs at twice the plunge rate if I'm not mistaken, and that's one reason for its high productivity. By any chance is your baler geared for a 1000 rpm tractor pto and the pto shaft coupler has been rigged to work with your 540 input? That would explain a lot of this. At my 1 flake per second rate, my ground speed is a fast walk. (It's 4th gear which is 3.5 mph with my tires). That fills the baler throat and gives me very consistent, tight, and saleable bales.

 

[Niji]

I don't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if this baler had been outfitted with a 1000 rpm rig. But I'd also be surprised if it was engineered to be this slow.

I would guess this baler should be comparable to the 14t.

Perhaps I'm spending more down time with that bum knotter than I'm giving credit for? Otherwise, it really does seem to run pretty well.

Thanks for the info on how plunger rate makes for higher productivity. Now that's what I'm talking about...no wonder last year when I was running a 336 for a little while in these same fields it seemed like my life was so much easier. I'd sure like to upgrade to a baler that is just a step up from this as it would better fit my operation. Having guys standing around as I hemorrhage money, and slightly perplexed customers grabbing bales as fast as they can hit the ground out of the back of the baler is not something I want to do every year.

 

[Tim D]

I have had a Ford 532 for about 4 years. I had a NH 68 before that. To me it seems as though the 532 has a lot more capacity than the 68. The 68 made a neater bale that fit my trailers better. The 532 plunger hits the hay and makes a wavy pattern in the hay that once the bale is out of chamber, the waves in hay start straightening out and I end up with a bale that is measuring 15X19. Difference in 532 plunger and the 68's is the NH had a flat plunger face and the 532 has 4 flat steels that go on either side of needles. This metal is causing the the waves. Other than that no problems. One thing you might check is the feed door that you can narrow down or widen up that is located on sheet steel at back of pickup housing and next to chamber opening. It is supposed to be narrow for lite windrows and wide for heavy.Hope this helps.

 

[Mickey_Fx]

Plunger rate sure plays a big part in bale rate. Seem to recall the plunger speed on the JD 336 was 80/min @ rated PTO speed.

Hay fields around here are fairly heavy for 1st cutting and as I recall (been ~25 yrs ago) I was punching out a bale about every 10 strokes. Shot for 50# bales.

Having bales stuck together by uncut hay is saying to me excessive clearance between knives. Saying you recently rebuilt plunger may be a clue. Thinking with heavy slugs, plunger is somehow moving away from the stationary knife. Think I'd look for possible side play in the plunger.

For the missed knot, is it possible timing on the needles are slightly off. Small difference in the knoters making the difference in performance between the two.

Getting every thing just right can be an issue at times. Remember after making the first adjmts on the 336 I started breaking needles, often. Just about gave up and decided to talk to baler mechanic at the local JD shop. First thing he asked was "did I adj the needle timing according to the book", Yep, "there's your problem, manual was incorrect. Made adjmt per mechanic instructions and problem all gone. Expensive lesson. Also had on knoter frame break for no apparent reason.

 

[slowzuki]

I thought the plunger rate on the 336 was a bit higher but maybe not. I can't remember the numbers right now but it seems 250 bales an hour is no problem in good windrows with my 336. I've been baling much slower this year with a wagon behind so the overall process is much faster. About 180 bales an hour but no picking off the ground.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Otherwise, it seems to be running really well. I'm lucky if I break 200 in an afternoon, so even if the right knotter cost me, say, 50 bales, that's still nowhere close to what I expected from any old baler in pretty decent shape.

Please let me know if there's perhaps something else I might try. After this past week, though, I decided I've plainly got to improve the time it takes me in the field for next season, and the baler is my weak point of the operation, clearly.

Is the plunger chamber being filled for each compression stroke? On mine there is an adjustment in the stroke of the paw that pulls the hay from the lift rake and sweeps it in front of the plunger for compression. Sounds like it is not delivering a full load to the plunger.
larry

 

[Niji]

You know...now that you mention it, there are some adjustments on the paw that grabs hay and takes it to the plunger. I'll check tomorrow (we're getting rain again, and I've luckily got no hay on the ground at the moment), but I seem to remember that there are a series of bolt holes which allow for adjustment on that.

Thanks for the idea. And I'm going back into that right knotter again. And I'll have a look at the plunger to see if there is play in it that may widen the gap between the knives when a big load of hay comes through as Mickey_fx mentioned.

I sure could be suffering from a lot of little slow ups that make the total a big problem.

 

[Grrrr]

You guys sure do go a lot slower than we do over here!

I run a Claas Markant 65 (don't think they exist in the US) but it is a fairly modern baler, say 15 years old.

I do a lot of contracting (custom small baling) as well as our own hay (about 6000 - 8000 bales a year plus another 10000 - 15000 contracting.

All this is done with a bale accumulator on the back putting the bales into packs of 8.

I aim for 450 an hour average, some times I can get up to 550 bales an hour, other times I am down to 250.

But in a day of say 7 hours baling I expect to get 3000 bales done.

Thats a bale about every 10 seconds.

If you push on too much the bale lengths become erratic, because you will get such large wadges in the bale.

A decent windrow is key, too small and you cannot go fast enough, too big and the packers are overfed and inefficient.

With a decent modern baler it pays to keep the revs right up, I stay at around 560 - 580 PTO RPM which gives about 95 plunger strokes per minute. The faster the packers are clearing the crop, the less they are having to move on each stroke.

You should be baling way faster than anything can pick up and load by hand. Something else must be wrong.

Also, I consider 1 miss in 10,000 bales to need fixing. There is no reason for a knotter to miss unless there was a problem trasnfering from one ball of string to another or similar.

Having decent hay kit just makes everything so nice and easy, the number of times I have been called to a field of hay where a farmer is struggling with gettting it baled, and I pull into the field and start knocking bales out, and the farmer remarks "oh it is so easy when it all works perfectly!"

This is how I like my baler to be going:
YouTube - Claas Markant 65 Small Square Baler Wheaten Straw

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Accumulators and 1/4 turns really allow you to speed up. I can easily meet your totals with my NH 575 if it wasn't for changing wagons every 130-150 bales. That takes up a lot of time unless you have someone following with a wagon so you don't have to travel to the wagon to change. Still it slows the process down considerably. If I recall I did 2600 bales in 6 hours give or take a few years back but had help changing wagons over so I didn't have to run for each wagon with the baler. I would love to go with a Kuhns accumulator and really see how fast I can bale

 

[zzvyb6]

Your Claas is not faster than a 15 years or newer US baler. My old JD336 run with a JD4430 could outrun that video (as you can see for yourself on many other Youtube haymaking videos. This thread is all about mid-1950 and 1960 vintage balers running with under 40 hp CUTs. Yep, the windrow volume is the key, if a bale takes too long to accumulate sufficient material, it stretches your day. Either pick up your ground speed, double or triple rake your windrows, or go to a wider mower (12' or 16'). If you need 10 second bales, that's about 13 plunges in 10 seconds with a full baler throat. Any modern machine does this rate or faster, especially the 1000 rpm PTO driven machines.

 

[JasG]

Any modern machine does this rate or faster, especially the 1000 rpm PTO driven machines.

What brand has a 1000 rpm small square baler?