Not Too Happy with Engine Heater

[ruffdog]

What is a radiator hose heater capacity? Something like 600 watts? That isn't much considering the mass to heat. They don't have a pump to circulate like a heater hose heater do they?

 

[LouNY]

The radiator hose heaters will work if they can be installed properly.
They have to be in the lower radiator hose and the closer to the engine the better.
The hose has to have an upward slope from the heater to the block,
and the higher in that slope the better it will work.
The one in my IH 574 works fairly well when she is parked on level ground,
but if I park her facing downhill which increases the slope of the hose it works much better.
I would estimate that it works 2X as good when I park it facing down hill.
Mine is only a 400 watt heater which is also the wattage of the block heater in my Branson,
both of them will warm the blocks.

 

[Underdog57]

The radiator hose heaters will work if they can be installed properly.
They have to be in the lower radiator hose and the closer to the engine the better.
The hose has to have an upward slope from the heater to the block,
and the higher in that slope the better it will work.
The one in my IH 574 works fairly well when she is parked on level ground,
but if I park her facing downhill which increases the slope of the hose it works much better.
I would estimate that it works 2X as good when I park it facing down hill.
Mine is only a 400 watt heater which is also the wattage of the block heater in my Branson,
both of them will warm the blocks.

I agree, I put that same heater in. It is supposed to be mounted at the lowest possible point HORIZONTALLY before the hose turns upward towards the engine. Mine works great!

 

[fried1765]

Last night was cold. 14*F. I let the new radiator hose heater run for about 4 hours before attempting to start the engine. I used my IR thermometer to see just how effective this new lower radiator hose heater is working. It read 110F on the heater, the hose was 90F. Freeze plug was 30F. Oil pan was 14F.

I turned the key on and the glow plug light went out immediately. I cycled the switch a few times, needing, wanting the glow plugs to fire a bit longer, knowing that the combustion chambers are still cold. I started the tractor and it did fire right up with a small clatter, maybe a single miss.

Here is why I am not too happy. I am approaching the next regen cycle. If the ECU believes the tractor is warm a few minutes after startup, because the coolant is warm, and attempts to regen, with the oil that is not warm, I'm in trouble! I use the proper oil, but it is cold and thick.

I am thinking of adding a magnetic oil pan heater. I'm not a fan of these, especially with a split sump. But something to warm that oil is better than nothing.

So I am disappointed that I cannot run the glow plugs longer, thanks to the ECU (if you know how I can run them longer, I'm all ears (turning the key backwards does not do it)) which results in potentially more cold starts, the exact opposite of what I am wanting, and the oil is not getting warmed at all.
Adding a magnetic oil pan heater will help the oil, but the ECU is another monster.

The little magnetic oil pan heaters are not much, at only 200 watts.
That said, if your tractor is stored in an unheated building, they do make a very significant starting difference.
Two of them though might be the best idea, especially on a larger engined machine than my little 32HP Ford 1920.
The heat from that warmed oil, from under the block, also rises to help warm the block itself.
Warmed oil, for a cold started engine is a VERY good thing!

 

[Ford850]

I understand how heating low on a vertical hose will create a natural flow as it warms, like a chimney. That would create a slow constant flow through the engine, gradually warming it all. But how does that happen with a thermostat in the mix, since it would be cold and closed?

 

[fried1765]

What is a radiator hose heater capacity? Something like 600 watts? That isn't much considering the mass to heat. They don't have a pump to circulate like a heater hose heater do they?

They do not need a pump.
Put the heater in the lower hose.
Heat rises!

 

[LouNY]

I agree, I put that same heater in. It is supposed to be mounted at the lowest possible point HORIZONTALLY before the hose turns upward towards the engine. Mine works great!

Per Katz heaters it should be installed in the house with a RISE towards the water pump

1) Drain and clean cooling system.
2) Cut and remove 1” section from radiator hose at a point closest to the water
pump until it will accept the heater. Make certain that the heater has a rise
toward the water pump.
3) Install the heater with the cap down at the 5-7 o’clock position and the element
is pointing toward the engine block. The thermostat is in the cap and
it must read the water temperature to work properly.
4) Run cord through grill and secure, making sure it is clear of all moving or

 

[ruffdog]

They do not need a pump.
Put the heater in the lower hose.
Heat rises!

A higher output option is installing one with a pump. You can install a lower hose T where the old heater was and plumb the other end to a block drain. These are 1000-1500 watt. We never depended on a "heat rises" option when installing heaters on medium duty trucks.

Circulating Coolant Heater 15 Watt 12 Volt

 

[Avenger]

Just made an update video:
Heater Update and Force Regenerate - YouTube

To all who were asking if it was installed correctly, the short answer is yes.
The long answer is, I had to install it a bit farther away from the engine because I was concerned about the exterior of the heater melting some plastic, notably, the oil fill cap. However, there is no low points between the heater and the engine. I did read and follow the instructions.

The thermostat does prevent the cycling of the coolant, which is one reason a freeze plug heater is more efficient. However, these heaters are supposed to get hot enough to either open the thermostat or cycle through the engine and by-pass hot and cold coolant in the lower hose until the thermostat opens. Like two cars passing on the highway. The thermostat is at the top of the coolant system. Thats how it's supposed to work, apparently. I'm guessing there are other paths for the warm coolant to pass though as well.

This is my first time (1) owning a tractor with an ECU, and (2) using a lower radiator hose heater. Like I stated in my install video, I prefer the freeze plug heaters, but opted for this one.

Another concern, maybe, is the wattage this heater is pulling. Just shy of 500w on a 600w heater. I am no electrician, but less watts is less power is less heat. The circuit the heater is plugged into is 120v 25v. Not sure why is not pulling enough amps. Should be pulling at least another amp. But I dont know how they spec these things, is 500w close enough to 600w to call them 600w?

In the video, I did a force regen. That alleviates the concern about the tractor regenerating while its warming up. As for the glow plugs not working, I did a quick test when it was very cold (3*F) without the heater plugged in. I cycled the glow plugs twice before starting and the engine still knocked a bit before smoothing out, just like it did with the heater. So the heater is working to warm the combustion chambers a little. I'd still feel better if I could use the glow plugs with the heater. But oh-well.

Thank you to all who have helped! :thumbsup:

 

[Doofy]

No Problems with my lower radiator hose heater either. At 0 degrees F, plug in for 1 hour and it starts like it's July. If the oil pan is smooth, I would silicone on two pad heaters if cold oil worries you. Anything you can do to avoid "cold" starts in the winter will increase engine life.

 

[Avenger]

One of my first thoughts when I saw the first video, is your extension cord. How long is it and what gauge wire? I have a feeling you might be getting a fair sized voltage drop because of the light duty cord. It would be interesting to measure the voltage on the wall plug with the heater on. Then move you meter to the end of the cord by the heater and see what you get there.

I will definitely look into that.
The cord is new, 20ft. Don't remember the gauge. I just grabbed one off the shelf.

Thank you!

 

[Cycledude]

Here all this time I thought you already had a frost plug heater

 

[PILOON]

I will definitely look into that.
The cord is new, 20ft. Don't remember the gauge. I just grabbed one off the shelf.

Thank you!

For heating engines I suggest minimum 14 g with 12 g preferred.

At 20 ft if that was 16 g you'd see voltage drop when drawing the typical 400 watts that most heaters are rated at.

 

[Egon]

Katz in-line heater installation.[video]https://www.fivestarmanufacturing.com/pdf/heater_training.ppt[/video]

Orientation is important.

Radiator Heaters​

?/font>Not Recommended for any engine, American or foreign, unless specifically listed in the Application Guide. Some customers mistakenly believe that the Lower Radiator Heater can be used as long as the hose diameter matches. These are also application specific.
?/font>Do not use on lower radiator hose which enters the engine lower than the highest point of the hose.

俵nit must be installed exactly as described in the instructions: Install with the cap down at 5-7 o団lock position and element pointing toward engine block.Radiator Heaters​

?/font>Not Recommended for any engine, American or foreign, unless specifically listed in the Application Guide. Some customers mistakenly believe that the Lower Radiator Heater can be used as long as the hose diameter matches. These are also application specific.
?/font>Do not use on lower radiator hose which enters the engine lower than the highest point of the hose.
?/font>Unit must be installed exactly as described in the instructions: Install with the cap down at 5-7 o団lock position and element pointing toward engine block.

 

[Avenger]

The extension cord is a 20ft 12ga.
I measured the wattage at the outlet and it was 550w with a cold engine. The I then re-read the wattage at the heater after the cord as 550w, no change.

I think the reason I was seeing an amp dip was due to the heater being on for a while. It is thermostat controlled, and I was probably reading a dip.

 

[PCABE5]

You may want to get your dealership to update your ECU as well. There was an update that Rusty posted when he had his turbo problems.

It's a safety interlock that disables the throttle for a period of a minute or so when ambient temperature is 32°F or colder. That allows time to ensure proper lubrication to the turbo. After that I'd be fine if it wanted to regenerate.

Most Delphi systems, XR and MT turbo motors, want normal coolant temperature before automatic regeneration which is 176°F on our motor. Remarkably or not that is how the Delphi systems were setup in VW diesel's as well.

My Cummins is not that way, as it will start regeneration on a cold motor as soon as it seems 45 MPH. Which has never bothered me or my truck for the 12 years I've owned it.

Another note for our engines that most are probably not aware of, is that the EGR does not turn on when ambient temperature is below 32°F and the EGR is also not used, turned off, during regeneration.

 

[Avenger]

Thank you P.
I did get an update this last summer. I took the tractor into the dealership for a very tiny warranty repair (small leak from front drive shaft seal) and while it was there, they updated the ECU. However, I can rev the engine past idle at absolute cold, well below freezing. I dont tend to do this, I let it idle at idle for a few before revving up to 1500 to warm up. But can rev it up just after startup.

The dealer did tell me that my ECU was a few versions behind, but not anymore after the update. I didn't ask for a change log.

So maybe I dont have the actual latest and greatest, but I'm sure they updated my ECU with their version of the latest and greatest.

 

[PCABE5]

I'll look through my stuff and verify the throttle cutoff. Gotta believe you have it if the dealership flashed it.