New EPA wood stoves.

[brokenknee]

Currently have a Northern leader wood furnace, was thinking about upgrading to a new EPA wood furnace or even a wood boiler. Has anyone upgraded to the newer wood furnaces or changed over to a wood boiler?

New wood furnace looks like it would be about 4 grand and if I went with a new outdoor gasification boiler it looks to be in the 10 to 15 grand range. I would have to go with the outdoor boiler as I don't have a basement.

Currently have electric baseboard heat when not burning wood. Will be running out of (seasoned) wood tomorrow. Just moved to the house this year and had more pressing issues to deal with than get wood. Previous owner left maybe 3 logger cords that I cut and split this summer/fall.

Just looking for feed back plus or minus on your experience. I live on 40 acres and have mostly poplar to cut to burn. I can also purchase a logger cord of hardwood for $65 a cord in 10 cord lots or $70 in 5 cord lots. Even if i purchase wood at that price it will save me 75 cents on the dollar (on line calculator)

I am also aware of the time and work that is involved in heating with wood. I don't mind it, I actually kind of enjoy it, good exercise and gets me out of the house.

 

[Craig Clayton]

I am also heating with electric in a high effieceny house. I have been sitting on the fence about going back to wood ( have it in a remote property).
The EPA Phase II outdoor furnace is what I would like to do because then the flame is outside and not in the house.
The older outdoor wood boilers are being outlawed in many areas.

Craig Clayton

 

[brokenknee]

I am also heating with electric in a high effieceny house. I have been sitting on the fence about going back to wood ( have it in a remote property).
The EPA Phase II outdoor furnace is what I would like to do because then the flame is outside and not in the house.
The older outdoor wood boilers are being outlawed in many areas.

Craig Clayton

I also like the idea of the fire being outside. Currently wood furnace in a separate room attached to the other side of attached garage. Heat is delivered by duct work that is run through the attic. I know, not an efficient way to deliver heat.

I have read some areas of the country are outlawing or severely restricting their (older wood boilers) use. I have not heard of anything in my area and I would think it would almost have to be a state mandate as many people use the old style boilers in the area. I live far enough away from my neighbors were this should not be an issue.

One concern about the older boilers is the amount of wood they use. I have been told they use a lot more wood than a wood furnace or the new EPA boilers. Not sure what a lot means, just what I have heard.

In some ways I would like to go the boiler route as I would like to put up a 40 by 60 shed in the near future and would be able to use the boiler to also heat the shed.

 

[Ken45101]

We have an inside wood stove and absolutely love it. The newer EPA designs are more efficient than the older stoves. It's wonderful to sit near it and enjoy the heat and watch the fire. We bought one of the better quality models ($2000) and had a chimney put in ($1300).

We typically burn about 3 cord a year.

Ken

 

[Jstpssng]

I also like the idea of the fire being outside. Currently wood furnace in a separate room attached to the other side of attached garage. Heat is delivered by duct work that is run through the attic. I know, not an efficient way to deliver heat.

I have read some areas of the country are outlawing or severely restricting their (older wood boilers) use. I have not heard of anything in my area and I would think it would almost have to be a state mandate as many people use the old style boilers in the area. I live far enough away from my neighbors were this should not be an issue.

One concern about the older boilers is the amount of wood they use. I have been told they use a lot more wood than a wood furnace or the new EPA boilers. Not sure what a lot means, just what I have heard.

In some ways I would like to go the boiler route as I would like to put up a 40 by 60 shed in the near future and would be able to use the boiler to also heat the shed.

I've heard the same thing. I've also heard that your electric bill can be from the cost of running the circulators. This may or may not be the case, but I'm sure there are people here who have first hand experience.

i would like to have something that burns wood and/or wood chips, the only thing I've seen is a boiler which is way too big for my needs.

 

[brokenknee]

I stopped after work today at a dealer that sells boilers. He seamed to be very knowledgeable. He recommended the older style boilers, he said there is a lot more maintenance to the new gasification boiler. (he did sell the new ones also) In his opinion they were not worth the additional cost. His other concern was that it is absolutely necessary to burn dry wood. If the wood is not dry, it will not burn.

He claimed he heated his 3200 square foot older house with the old style boiler on six to eight cords of wood a year. He did say he thought the old style will be "fazed out" within the next five years by the EPA. He said he would think that the older boilers would be "grandfathered in". I would think he would be correct, at least from the EPA part. As stated earlier I do not think there would be any local restrictions against it, at least if it is not in town, to many people use them in the area.

He did say the pump only drew three amps, so I would think the electrical cost to run the pump is low.

Approximate cost would be around 12 grand. That is for a large boiler that would handle my planned shed in the future. The price also included parts and labor for the install. Price is only approximate as he would want to come out to my house to give me a firm bid.

That is a lot of money to burn wood. I will have to figure out the cost pay back and factor in the conveance of only having to stoke the boiler once or twice a day.

$3,300 for a new wood stove would be a lot cheaper, but then I would still have to feed the beast five or six times a day.

 

[flyingcow]

You guys need to go to Hearth.com - Information on Fireplaces, Wood Stoves, Pellet Stoves, etc. Great site. Has all the categories on the BB that you need. really good bunch of folks there.

IMO the older style OWB's are not the way to go. I have an indoor boiler in an out building, piped into my house with some very good underground piping. I stack my wood on pallets right off of the splitter. Than move wood with FEL into building, set the pallets close to boiler. And my unit is a gassification boiler. i also have 820 gals of storage in my basement. Got $11,000 into both. I replaced 1000 gals of oil with 6.5 cords of wood. if i bought an E-Classic OWB ($12,000) i would have burned at least 10 cords of wood. Also, IMO no matter what you burn the wood in, it works best if it's seasoned a yr.

Also, I really love a good wood stove. Just wasn't good for our house.

 

[flyingcow]

this is 5 cord of wood. Took my 30 mins to put in.:thumbsup: There are 3(6 pallets) cord behind the front stack.

 

[brokenknee]

On a side note, put in the last of the seasoned wood this morning. Well the wife is already saying how much she misses the wood heat. With the wood we would have the house around 76ｰ to 78ｰ F. Now the house is at 68ｰ.

She says I'm "cheap", I like to think as myself as fiscally conservative.

I told her this weekend I will go out in our woods and cut some of the dead trees that a lying around. Hopefully they should be dry enough to safely burn. If not will have to wait until next season.

 

[brokenknee]

You guys need to go to Hearth.com - Information on Fireplaces, Wood Stoves, Pellet Stoves, etc. Great site. Has all the categories on the BB that you need. really good bunch of folks there.

IMO the older style OWB's are not the way to go. I have an indoor boiler in an out building, piped into my house with some very good underground piping. I stack my wood on pallets right off of the splitter. Than move wood with FEL into building, set the pallets close to boiler. And my unit is a gassification boiler. i also have 820 gals of storage in my basement. Got $11,000 into both. I replaced 1000 gals of oil with 6.5 cords of wood. if i bought an E-Classic OWB ($12,000) i would have burned at least 10 cords of wood. Also, IMO no matter what you burn the wood in, it works best if it's seasoned a yr.

Also, I really love a good wood stove. Just wasn't good for our house.

I actually joined that site just to post this question. Only got one response back so I thought I would post here.

11 grand into both? How long ago did you purchase it? Did that include everything you needed for the install plus the install?

It was a central boiler dealer I stopped at.

 

[westcliffe01]

The major problem with the outdoor boilers is that the boiler heat delivery rate and the home heat demand are not matched. Typically the boilers are terribly over sized for heating homes. They were really designed to heat greenhouses and farm buildings which are large and generally poorly insulated.

I think you have already figured out that the up front cost is high. If the home heat demand is not matched to the boiler, it will be in permanent smolder mode which is going to turn your firewood into creosote and awful smelly cold smoke.

Financially, given that you are located in Minnesota, which is a place that actually gets seriously cold, I would strongly recommend that you consider a "proper" catalytic wood stove like the Blaze King. They have a large firebox and unlike the secondary air stoves, they can be dialed way down for very long burns. Non catalytic EPA certified stoves basically have permanent "leaks" to ensure enough air flow and can be hard to control if you have a good chimney. I should know, since I have been using them for the last 4 years... Mine is a Pacific Energy T5, made in canada where the winters are as cold or colder than MN, and where the only wood they have is frequently some sort of pine.

You will burn a LOT less wood in a good catalytic wood stove than an outdoor boiler and the money you save on the equipment will buy several years worth of wood. You can probably buy and install a Blaze king and build a nice woodshed and stock it with wood and still have spent less money than an outdoor boiler and your back will thank you forever...

 

[flyingcow]

I actually joined that site just to post this question. Only got one response back so I thought I would post here.

11 grand into both? How long ago did you purchase it? Did that include everything you needed for the install plus the install?

It was a central boiler dealer I stopped at.

No, about another $2000 in parts. BIL did the install. You can DIY a storage tank for cheap money. just wasn't my thing. E-Classic dealer said to figure 1 cord of seasoned wood=100 gals of oil. This gasser I have, 1 cord of wood equals 150/175 gals of oil. You don't need the storage, but it's a nice plus. I can get 4 to 5 days out of 1 fire for DHW in summer. Thats 2 adults and 3 teens. It was about 4 yrs ago when it was installed. You could buy a gasser from $4000 to $7000. A Froling' is a $13,000 unit. But it's the cats azz for boilers.

 

[flyingcow]

i like westcliff's post. Plus it's neat that these new Cat stoves don't smoke much. Similar to my boiler. A little smoke upon start up, but thats it. Once it's burning good, when you look at my chimney, you don't know I have a fire going.

 

[dmccarty]

I drive past some homes and a business that uses outdoor wood burners. All but one of them can smoke up really badly. The business is a nursery and they are really bad about smoking the place up. This does not always happen and I think weather has a part in the situation but there are 3-4 wood burners withing a 1/2 mile or so and it can get really nasty in that area.

Up the road a few miles a guy put in a new outdoor burner. He put it in what looks like a single car garage sized out building. Looks real nice. That thing barely smokes at all. I would bet very few of the thousands of cars that go buy his place even notice he is burning wood. The most I have seen it smoke, it looked like the "steam" you see from a house burning gas on a very cold morning.

A huge difference than the out door burners to his south.

Later,
Dan

 

[bironacad]

On a side note, put in the last of the seasoned wood this morning. Well the wife is already saying how much she misses the wood heat. With the wood we would have the house around 76ｰ to 78ｰ F. Now the house is at 68ｰ.

She says I'm "cheap", I like to think as myself as fiscally conservative.

I told her this weekend I will go out in our woods and cut some of the dead trees that a lying around. Hopefully they should be dry enough to safely burn. If not will have to wait until next season.

Sure like the palatalization of wood:thumbsup:

I used to have an old 40's cook stove and a not so modern air tight, I upgraded to an modern air tight replacing the cook stove and can keep the 1800 square feet comfortable on a wheel barrow of hard wood per day. My place is insulated to the nines though. I was lazy last weekend and was heating with the oil furnace, fairly mild outside and my wife missed the wood heat. The air tight not only heats the air but throws radiant heat as well.

Good Luck with whatever you go with.

 

[brokenknee]

Thanks for all the feed back. I am still up in the air on what to do. If I do go with a boiler I will be looking more into the gasification model. One concern I have is the lack of planning on my part, were I do not have enough seasoned wood to burn. I also am concerned about the "additional" maintenance the dealer mentioned.

flyingcow, when you let the fire burn for four days do you have a problem with the fire going out? What about the stink that westcliffe01 mentioned.

The boiler that I'm am thinking about is way to big for my home, but was thinking about the heating of a future shed. Just wondering if I would have problems before the shed is built.

The cheapest way to go it seems would be a new wood furnace. I would just like to get away from feeding the beast the five to six times a day it needs. However as westcliffe mentioned that may not be an issue. If I can get by with three times a day that would be fine.

Maybe take a road trip to tower and talk to the folks that sell a gasification wood furnace. Have to call and see if they are open on the weekends. That stove is also not cheap ($4,350) would think it would have the same issues as the boiler about burning unseasoned wood.

I have tried to find out the plus and minuses of both the gasification versus the catylic style stoves. I am sure both have their benefits and negatives, I have just not been able to find them out. I guess it means going to dealers and listing to their sales pitch and hopefully find actual users in my area of both.

 

[Dogballs]

I posted this in the other wood heat thread also.

Do some research at Hearth.net You'll find that the indoor gasification boilers are a lot more efficient than any outdoor boiler.

I have a Tarm hooked up to a 750 gallon super insulated storage tank. I burn roughly 6 cords a year to heat my house in northern Vermont, including the domestic hot water. Some guys around here are burning 10-20 full cords in their outdoor boilers.

 

[Jstpssng]

On a side note, put in the last of the seasoned wood this morning. Well the wife is already saying how much she misses the wood heat. With the wood we would have the house around 76ｰ to 78ｰ F. Now the house is at 68ｰ.

She says I'm "cheap", I like to think as myself as fiscally conservative.

I told her this weekend I will go out in our woods and cut some of the dead trees that a lying around. Hopefully they should be dry enough to safely burn. If not will have to wait until next season.

Wood Bricks - Better Than Cordwood

If your going to end up buying fuel, how about these biomass bricks?
I've never tried them, but may in the future for those days when I'm away from home all day.

 

[Dogballs]

You guys need to go to Hearth.com - Information on Fireplaces, Wood Stoves, Pellet Stoves, etc. Great site. Has all the categories on the BB that you need. really good bunch of folks there.

IMO the older style OWB's are not the way to go. I have an indoor boiler in an out building, piped into my house with some very good underground piping. I stack my wood on pallets right off of the splitter. Than move wood with FEL into building, set the pallets close to boiler. And my unit is a gassification boiler. i also have 820 gals of storage in my basement. Got $11,000 into both. I replaced 1000 gals of oil with 6.5 cords of wood. if i bought an E-Classic OWB ($12,000) i would have burned at least 10 cords of wood. Also, IMO no matter what you burn the wood in, it works best if it's seasoned a yr.

Also, I really love a good wood stove. Just wasn't good for our house.

Sounds very similar to my set up. I also had around $11,000 tied up in my system when I did it in 2008. Boiler prices have gone up a little since.

 

[brokenknee]

Wood Bricks - Better Than Cordwood

If your going to end up buying fuel, how about these biomass bricks?
I've never tried them, but may in the future for those days when I'm away from home all day.

I entered my zip code to try to find out the price. It came back they did not have a dealer in my area. They said they would only ship a minimum of twenty tons. Not going to happen.

As stated earlier I can purchase hard wood for either $65 a cord (10 cord load) or $70 cord (5 cord load). I want the hard wood for the longer burn times (at night and when away at work) I have forty acres of poplar and pine that I will cut. Have some hard wood but really do not want to cut that at this time.