Need input on TnT option

Rolando · May 28, 2005

I'm wondering whether I really need the top and tilt option for my 3PH. I was thinking that I would need it to use with the box blade I'm getting, but I'm not sure how critical it will be to have the TnT for what I need to do.

I'm going to be building a house on very flat land, so I will be bringing in a lot of fill to build up the house and the area around the house for better drainage. I was thinking that I would need the tilt function to create the slope away from the house, but I don't know if this is correct.

Maybe you all could tell me how the tnt is actually used.

Bird · May 28, 2005

Rolando, I've seen people who could work a box blade quite efficiently without top 'n tilt, and I eventually learned to do a reasonable job myself, but not very efficiently. Then I put top 'n tilt on my B2710 and could do a really good job in about one-fourth the time and use a lot less energy (mine and the tractor's). /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif So while it ain't a "necessity", I hope I don't have to use a box blade again without top 'n tilt.

jeffinsgf · May 28, 2005

"Top" is very helpful. Tilt is too, but the advantages and disadvantages depend on the tractor you're dealing with. If you have a backhoe attachment, and you have to remove the 3pt arms to attach the backhoe, then the decision on a tilt gets more complicated. I gave up on it on my JD 4410. The removal of the hitch arms and the addition of a second SCV just became more burden than necessary for the few times that I would want to scrape at an angle.

I think that in pulling the grade away from your house, you will be pulling perpindicular to the house, rather than parallel, making the "tilt" less necessary.

If you're not going to be using a backhoe and/or your backhoe does not require the removal of the hitch arms, then I would add the tilt, too. Otherwise, consider adding a top cylinder only.

Rolando · May 28, 2005

I should have mentioned on my original post that this will be for a B3030 cab model, which doesn't accept a BH, so the need to remove 3PH arms wouldn't be a factor (although the 3PH arms don't get removed with the frame-mounted BH for the non-cab version anyway).

Rolando · May 28, 2005

Thanks, Bird. This is the kind of input I need. I have absolutely no experience operating heavy equipment of any kind (large or small) so I don't know anything about the skills that I need to develop or how any equipment options will fit in.

Boomerang1 · May 29, 2005

The main reason for a top cylinder on a BB is to change the cutting angle of the BB. If you retract the cylinder, the blade cuts deeper, which is helpful on the initial grading. If you extend the cylinder, the blade cuts less deep, for final grading. If you extend the cylinder out far enough, the front the front blade will lift off the ground and the front of the rear blade will be touching the ground which will give you the same results as back dragging with the front bucket. Also when you get good enough you can change the angle of the blade while moving so you can cut down high spots and fill in low spots easily. I don't even look back most of the time when I am grading. I can tell the position of my blade by how it pulls through the dirt or gravel. When I see a high spot, I retract the cylinder, cut the high spot down and then feather the cylinder out to empty the BB. When blading while backing up, reverse the action of the cylinder.

Wall · May 29, 2005

If you don't have a tnt you will have to get off the tractor every time you need to adjust your hitch.

btolle · May 29, 2005

If the only time you will use the box blade is to level the pad for the house I doubt that it is worth the investment. As someone already pointed out, you will do the slope by running perpindicular to the slope anyway. While TnT would be convenient it would not be a necessity.

If you are going to be doing other leveling and land contouring it is worth it.

I use my box blade and straight blade for a lot of leveling, about 3 acres worth, and it is well worth it for me.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention is that you can use the FEL for sloping the ground away from the house. I use the FEL for finish grading by putting it in the "float" position and backdragging the lip of the bucket and curling the bucket up to taper off an edge.

Bill Tolle

JoshJ · May 29, 2005

i wish i had experience on a TnT setup, but you can be fairly effective without it, as Bird said. it just takes longer to do and figure out. i have a BB w/o it, and the little bit i use it for, i find it handy to either have the top link a little short or a little long, and if i want to cut in, go forward (if top is short) and if i want to finish grade, go in reverse. if the link is longer, the opposite would come into play. its not quick, its not pretty, but it works enough for me. (also, your BB will need front AND back blades). also, my 3PH has three holes for the top link to hook into, and i'll bet if i switch holes, i could change the angle of the blade, not sure if that would be effective or not /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif also, like the others said, i dont think you would use tilt enough to justify it

Ronster · May 30, 2005

Do you need a rear hydraulic remote to install a TnT setup? And if I want a Tnt, should I have my Kubota dealer install it when I order my tractor or should I go with an after market setup?

seapea · May 30, 2005

( Do you need a rear hydraulic remote to install a TnT setup? And if I want a Tnt, should I have my Kubota dealer install it when I order my tractor or should I go with an after market setup? )

There are many TnT threads. You might want to do a search and browse through them. Lot's of useful information, and lot's of "way over my head" information. Here's one:

hydraulic top link

The biggest disadvantage of the dealer intalled TnT is that they will probably want to go with the Gearmore TnT kit, which doesn't contain a check valve. The above thread discusses this somewhat. I'm purchasing a new tractor and I know I want TnT setup. Just trying to figure out how to get something other than the Gearmore kit installed.

As for the need for rear remotes, yes you need them. One question I have is the B2630 has 1 rear remote, but the dealer says they don't use it for a TnT setup. They tap into the loader hydraulics. I suppose this is because you need one remote for the toplink cyclinder and one for the tilt cylinder (and a 3rd for the hydraulic box blade scarifiers or hydraulic angling blade). I'm not certain if the B2630 remote would be used if you just got a toplink. I suspect it might just be for the backhoe hydraulics, since I believe the B2630 backhoe doesn't have/need it's own PTO driven hydraulics.

MadReferee · May 30, 2005

( One question I have is the B2630 has 1 rear remote, but the dealer says they don't use it for a TnT setup. They tap into the loader hydraulics. I suppose this is because you need one remote for the toplink cyclinder and one for the tilt cylinder (and a 3rd for the hydraulic box blade scarifiers or hydraulic angling blade). I'm not certain if the B2630 remote would be used if you just got a toplink. I suspect it might just be for the backhoe hydraulics, since I believe the B2630 backhoe doesn't have/need it's own PTO driven hydraulics.
)

There is only one hydraulic circuit for implements and it includes the loader and 3pt.

The B2630 and the B3030 each have a rear aux hydraulic outlet block. There should be no need to connect directly to the loader valve. I am not sure if they also have the capability for stackable factory remotes with the control levers thru the fender like the L-series.

A remote is normally defined as a 3 position valve (A/B and neutral) with lever that controls a set of work ports that can be attached to a cylinder. If you have a remote that is like this then you can connect it to any double acting cylinder like a top link or tilt link. You would need 2 remotes for a complete TNT setup.

It would appear that your dealer has never dealt with someone who wanted rear remotes and TNT. From some of your other posts it would seem that he is as much in the dark as you are. Make sure both you and he are on the same page and that you get what your need.

If he is trying to sell you the ROPS mounted Kubota valves tell him no way. They are over priced and you can do better with aftermarket equipment. If the B2630 has stackable valves tht mount thru the fender like the L-series then get those.

jeffinsgf · May 30, 2005

( ... One question I have is the B2630 has 1 rear remote, but the dealer says they don't use it for a TnT setup. They tap into the loader hydraulics. I suppose this is because you need one remote for the toplink cyclinder and one for the tilt cylinder (and a 3rd for the hydraulic box blade scarifiers or hydraulic angling blade). I'm not certain if the B2630 remote would be used if you just got a toplink. I suspect it might just be for the backhoe hydraulics, since I believe the B2630 backhoe doesn't have/need it's own PTO driven hydraulics.
)

Be careful there with your dealer. It sounds like he is setting you up to choose between using your loader and working with your TnT. If you have to swap hoses to use your TnT, and then back to use your loader, any time and convenience gains are out the window.

I'm not familiar with how the Orange world works, but in Greene land, you have the option of a factory electric switch which toggles the joystick from loader to two other circuits (which you can use for TnT). You'll either want this, or a second joystick or a pair of controls. As others have said, CCM will get you set up with quality equipment at a very reasonable price.

seapea · May 30, 2005

( There is only one hydraulic circuit for implements and it includes the loader and 3pt.

The B2630 and the B3030 each have a rear aux hydraulic outlet block. There should be no need to connect directly to the loader valve. I am not sure if they also have the capability for stackable factory remotes with the control levers thru the fender like the L-series.

A remote is normally defined as a 3 position valve (A/B and neutral) with lever that controls a set of work ports that can be attached to a cylinder. If you have a remote that is like this then you can connect it to any double acting cylinder like a top link or tilt link. You would need 2 remotes for a complete TNT setup. )

Ok. This all makes sense to me. I suspected the rear outlet was not actually a remote, but just a place to "tap in" to the hydraulics".

( It would appear that your dealer has never dealt with someone who wanted rear remotes and TNT. From some of your other posts it would seem that he is as much in the dark as you are. Make sure both you and he are on the same page and that you get what your need. )

This comment I don't get. Isn't TnT the most common reason for rear remotes? They showed me a TnT setup they were just completing installation of, so obviously they do this. How do you do a TnT without rear remotes?

( If he is trying to sell you the ROPS mounted Kubota valves tell him no way. They are over priced and you can do better with aftermarket equipment. If the B2630 has stackable valves tht mount thru the fender like the L-series then get those. )

It is ROPS mounted. I'm pretty sure it's the Gearmore valves, which I'm pretty sure are made by Rankin (they actually listed a Rankin part number on the quote). Here's what I recall them looking like. It was definitely 3 valves in a row (is this what you mean by stackable) hanging off the ROPS:

CCM doesn't list a 3-valve setup, just joystick. Is there a 3-valve option from CCM. Also, where does the joystick mount? I actually like the idea of the joystick better. It seems like it would be more natural to use. I can do without the 3rd valve.

seapea · May 30, 2005

( ( ... One question I have is the B2630 has 1 rear remote, but the dealer says they don't use it for a TnT setup. They tap into the loader hydraulics. I suppose this is because you need one remote for the toplink cyclinder and one for the tilt cylinder (and a 3rd for the hydraulic box blade scarifiers or hydraulic angling blade). I'm not certain if the B2630 remote would be used if you just got a toplink. I suspect it might just be for the backhoe hydraulics, since I believe the B2630 backhoe doesn't have/need it's own PTO driven hydraulics.
))

(Be careful there with your dealer. It sounds like he is setting you up to choose between using your loader and working with your TnT. If you have to swap hoses to use your TnT, and then back to use your loader, any time and convenience gains are out the window. )

I'll verify this. Although I'm not familiar with exactly how the hydraulic hookup for the FEL works, I suspect the dealer means that they tap off the hose running to the FEL valves, in which case it should not affect FEL usage. There is definitely a separate set of remote valves that would be installed for the rear remotes, so I know that are not using the FEL valves to drive the TnT.

Bird · May 30, 2005

I was guessing that when the dealer mentioned tapping into the FEL hydraulics, he was talking about using the power beyond port on the FEL valve. That was one option when I did mine, but instead I used the rear hydraulic outlet; had to buy the "rear outlet block" which simply meant removing the existing plate and bolting the block on there; two bolts, then hooking the hoses to that to go to and from an open center two spool valve, and of course hoses from the valve to the top 'n tilt cylinders. Now I'd say the preferred way would be to go from the valve to quick couplers and you have two pair of remotes that could be used by the top 'n tilt cylinders, or something else if you wished, but I didn't foresee using them from anything else, so I just went directly to the cylinders.

MadReferee · May 30, 2005

I stopped at the local Kubota dealer this afternoon and looked all over a new B2630 and a cab model B3030.

Each has the rear hydraulic outlet and from the dimensions of the cover plate it looks exactly like the B2410.2710/2910 outlet. The block adapter should be the same for all 5 tractors.

It also looks like there is a place for remote valve levers that may be a standard Kubota option. The plastic cover on the fender is removeable and there is a similar sized opening below and behind the seat that is just above the rear hydraulic block. I'll bet that with using bent flat stock levers Kubota is planning or already has an option for the Bxx30 series for rear remote valves.

I believe the Gearmore setup (3 spool valve, top link, tilt link, hoses and mounting bracket is around $1400 or more. You can have the whole thing for less than half that using a 3 spool Prince SV valve ($250 max), CCM top link ($150), CCM tilt link ($150) and hoses and fittings ($125 or so) and hydraulic block ($65). This also eliminates the long hoses from the valve to the loader that Gearmore uses (they do not use the rear hydraulic block).

This gives you the best of all worlds in that you have 3 spools, and cylinders with check valves. I went that way and would not look back. Pic attached.

seapea · May 30, 2005

( I believe the Gearmore setup (3 spool valve, top link, tilt link, hoses and mounting bracket is around $1400 or more. You can have the whole thing for less than half that using a 3 spool Prince SV valve ($250 max), CCM top link ($150), CCM tilt link ($150) and hoses and fittings ($125 or so) and hydraulic block ($65). This also eliminates the long hoses from the valve to the loader that Gearmore uses (they do not use the rear hydraulic block). )

The Gearmore TnT quote was $1400 at the dealer I'm currently working with. It was $1700 at the overpriced dealer that charges list for everything. Keep in mind that you need to include dealer profit and labor. The parts you list above are $740. I figure the dealer would want to charge something like $850 for the same. That leaves $550 for labor. Around here tractor labor is about $85 an hour, so that is about 6.5 hours worth of labor. Anyone know how many hours a dealer install typically takes? Given the trials and tribulations I've seen on TBN for TnT do-it-yourselfers, I'm guessing it takes the better part of a day.

I'm not saying your setup isn't better than the Gearmore, but I think saying it cost less than half is a big overstatement. If I'm going with something other than Gearmore, it's mostly to get the checkvalves. It doesn't look like other setups like CCM will offer a substantial savings, and given that the dealer is not familiar with them, he may be unwilling to pass any savings along to me because of the greater risk of running to unexpected problems during installion. I'm mostly just trying to get the right/best TnT, not necessarily the best value.

( This gives you the best of all worlds in that you have 3 spools, and cylinders with check valves. I went that way and would not look back. Pic attached. )

Am I seeing the picture right? It looks like the valves are behind and to the right of the seat. Aren' they hard to reach?

MadReferee · May 30, 2005

( Given the trials and tribulations I've seen on TBN for TnT do-it-yourselfers, I'm guessing it takes the better part of a day.)

Took just 3 hours (1 to mount the valve and 2 to install the hoses etc.) once I figured out my game plan.

( I'm not saying your setup isn't better than the Gearmore, but I think saying it cost less than half is a big overstatement. )

Granted my time is worth money but it didn't come out of my bank account. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I am quite capable and mechanically able to perform this task. Others may not be, so they got to pay the man. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

( It doesn't look like other setups like CCM will offer a substantial savings, and given that the dealer is not familiar with them, he may be unwilling to pass any savings along to me because of the greater risk of running to unexpected problems during installion. I'm mostly just trying to get the right/best TnT, not necessarily the best value.)

It's your choice and your money. We are only trying to help you get the right/best TNT for your hard earned money. Experience is talking here.

( Am I seeing the picture right? It looks like the valves are behind and to the right of the seat. Aren' they hard to reach? )

Not at all. In fact, it is much easier than your possible setup in that you are turning sideways and looking back at the implement and steering with your left hand. The right hand is almost in perfect position to use the valves. In your possible setup, the right hand would have to cross over the body to get to the levers which are much further up front. Go sit in the tractor and pretend to use it as you would while in the field. If you got long arms and are a contortionist then it might be comfortable.

Good luck with your choice, whatever it may be.

seapea · May 30, 2005

( ( I'm not saying your setup isn't better than the Gearmore, but I think saying it cost less than half is a big overstatement. )

Granted my time is worth money but it didn't come out of my bank account. I am quite capable and mechanically able to perform this task. Others may not be, so they got to pay the man. )

Ok, I'll see if I can get the dealer to tell me home many hours I'm being billed for.

I might be willing to take this on myself if I had a reasonable amount of experience with tractors and hydraulics, but as things stand now, paying to have it installed is something I can't see getting away from..

( ( It doesn't look like other setups like CCM will offer a substantial savings, and given that the dealer is not familiar with them, he may be unwilling to pass any savings along to me because of the greater risk of running to unexpected problems during installion. I'm mostly just trying to get the right/best TnT, not necessarily the best value.)

It's your choice and your money. We are only trying to help you get the right/best TNT for your hard earned money. Experience is talking here. )

Yes, and your help is much appreciated. I think what has happened in this case is that what is best for the TnT expert do-it-yourselfer might not be what is best for the inexperienced working with a dealer. I'm trying to balance out sticking with the dealer's game plan with the opinions of the experts in this thread.

(
( Am I seeing the picture right? It looks like the valves are behind and to the right of the seat. Aren' they hard to reach? )

Not at all. In fact, it is much easier than your possible setup in that you are turning sideways and looking back at the implement and steering with your left hand. The right hand is almost in perfect position to use the valves. In your possible setup, the right hand would have to cross over the body to get to the levers which are much further up front. Go sit in the tractor and pretend to use it as you would while in the field. If you got long arms and are a contortionist then it might be comfortable. )

Is your right arm reaching over your seat. I can see it being a natural position for your right arm assuming seat clearance isn't an issue. Of course with the ROPS mounted valves there's always the "left hand on the valves, knee on the stearing wheel" approach. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

( Good luck with your choice, whatever it may be )

Thanks!