My wife is divorcing me over coyotes

[Laminarman]

This is related to a previous post I made "Dancing with Coyotes". Made my wife and kids move to a new home we built in a much more rural area (I love the land, love to hunt). The kids are 2 and 4, two dogs, and my wife is city "folk" but loves the new house. Long story short: we have been hearing coyotes howling in the evenings, one to two, and it's un-nerving when it's a couple hundred yards behind the house. Tonight we're having a small campfire about 9pm, it's dark, the dogs by our sides, and we hear our dogs get up and start running towards the woods, barking. I call them back, and that goes on two or three times, no big deal, but they're getting pretty worked up over something. It's a calm, 65 degree night, no wind, clear sky, Chardonnay tastes good, life is good. Deer. Racoon. Skunk back there? It is PITCH black out there, no lights, flashlight lost somewhere in the grass at me feet or under the seat. Suddenly, my dogs go ballistic, really ballistic. Then it happens....we hear a howl, another in quick succession, then a rampant pack of howling, then a crescendo coming down the hill towards us at fast speed, and I estimate the pack at 10 coyotes minimum as it's LOUD and frenetic. The pack and our dogs are going at it loudly, and my dogs run towards the woods. I jump up, and tell my wife to get the kids and dogs in the house (my older Lab is unable to protect herself and getting feeble). The house is 50 yards away, which is close, unless you're trying to get a wife, two kids and two labs in it quickly- especially when Labs are not known for their intelligence. The sound is now about 50-75 yards away, getting louder, and I can hear them breaking through the brush and coming towards the opening in our little field behind our house, right near us. It is now too close for comfort for even me as they're heading right at us and my kids are screaming over something making noise and they have no idea at all what's going on. I'm not so much afraid for me as the kids having a horrifying experience. I run towards the pack screaming which I'm sure I'll see any moment, frantically trying to get my dogs back. Contrary to what I think will happen, my dogs come back, hackles on end, and I head for the house at a dead pace, my wife is almost there. The coyotes do not detour, but skirt the brush and woods right along our house, only 50 FEET from the kids treehouse and garage and then I hear them turn back up towards where we were. God they move fast.

I get them inside and head out with a light and shotgun, but they're gone. My wife at this point is not happy at all, terrified, and the dogs have been barking all evening in the basement. How do I put this all in perspective? I find it exciting, but don't want them around due to the kids and dogs. I plan on hunting them, legal or not, starting this week, with 3.5 inch loads of 4 shot with a 12 guage shotgun with a red light at dark. They've only been getting worse and my wife is very, very upset and now the kids won't sleep alone. Please spare me the "you're in their country now, they were there first" crap. I buy that for grizzlies and wolves. We do have neighbors with a lot of kids around (closest neighbor 600 feet away). Some dogs have been killed, one cat. I see a lot of scat. Everybody up here agrees there are too many, and now I experienced it. The land is devoid of game save deer. I got a guy to come trap, but he has to wait until the legal trapping season this fall/winter. I can't wait for that. See my other post "Dances with Coyotes".

 

[RickS]

My only suggestion would be a Great Pyrenees or similar guard dog. They will adopt your family as their "flock" and defend it with ferocity if need be. They are gentle with children and like to lounge around. Somewhat low on the energy intensity scale. Think opposite of a lab who will fetch a ball over and over.

Aside from that, stop picnicing outside at night. Must have been a scary scene.

 

[jheady]

Since you said you like to hunt, here are some tips that may help.

You can hunt from the ground or from a stand. Depending on the terrain and your stand/hunting height it can be more productive over the ground. Either way you need to remember you are hunting a predator and they are usually travel in numbers. Once you get a shot you will need to move to another location as they will "mark" that spot. I wouldn't advise hunting at night unless you absolutely need to, that would also get you in trouble with the law for sure. Plus they would really have the edge on you and very likely not see any before they have spotted you. They do move in the daylight and are very stealthy creatures. You need to learn more about their habits and travel paths in your area, but I would start checking out the scat area and following some tracks. Try early mornings and late afternoon/evening for starters.
Use full camo even if you are using a blind or stand, and limited movement as well. Pretend you are turkey hunting with an active bird in sight and you should see some results. The shotgun is a good choice for firearms, unless you have some open area that gives you distance shots. It is hard to beat throwing a lot of lead at one time like a 12ga and you don't have to be dead on for the kill. A good .22 in the head also puts them down too if you catch them in the open.
Get a good rabbit/distress call. That will help lure them into your trap or at least pull them in closer to investigate. Some meat scrap piles will also draw them in too, as well as the possums and coons. You may want to check with your local butcher or meat counter to see what they may give you or ask what they do with their trimmings.

That is all I can think of at the moment. Hope it helps. Good luck.

 

[scesnick]

I have had the same problem. Just not to thaqt extreme. What I did was get a whole bunch of old meat and threw out in my field . I then got a coyote call and they came in and thought I was calling them for dinner. Me and my buddy were on the other side of the field with a spot light and a 300 Win Mag. We got 4 of them over the course of about 3 hours. They just could not resist coming out in the field for the meat.
This is completley legal in my state. there is no huniting season at all on coyotes. I would almost bet NY is the same way.

If that does not work I would also go with RickS suggestion of a Great Pyrenees or even a dog called an Anatolian Sheppard. The will guard your family to the death.

 

[bugstruck]

I can't say I have any experience with coyotes but my friends out west have a healty respect for their smaller version coyotes as relates to domestic dogs. They will attack dogs when in pack mode as we know. I've only seen one in northern Md. and it was noticably larger than the ones out west, or at least it so seemed. The problem is less when you are with the family IMO. Animals know the alpha of our species even if we don't. So they are generally less prone to try something if they see a male IMO. They may have split away because you were there. Now I wouldn't be to certain of that, but it could very well be. The potential problem is primarily with the young children and dogs. But I think it's managable once the hysteria bleeds off. Hunting them to lower #'s should help. But changing your habits is the best solution IMO. You won't get rid of them. Properly constructed fences work wonders although I know that's not why you moved there. I think this link may be of some use.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Wildlife/Wildlife_profiles/profile_eastern_coyote.htm
Copy and paste the link into your browser and underscore the spaces between the words. It's not working and I can't seem to modify it or mute the hypertext attribute??

Educate yourself and your wife and get with the animal control people to gain more information. They will seem much less menacing once you understand them better and adapt. I sure wouldn't vacate a property for some coyotes. But the wife thing, that's a tough one. I have a city girl of my own.

 

[MotorSeven]

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/guide/coyoteh.html#endnav2006/2007 Coyote Hunting Seasons

More information from this division:
Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources
Bureau of Wildlife
You are no longer required to pelt seal a coyote. If you take a coyote you must report the take within 48 hours via the DECALS reporting system at 1-866-GAMERPT (1-866-426-3778)

Back to top of page

Now go get 'em!

 

[MotorSeven]

Wow, that took up alotta space! soury!

Anyway, if it were me, i would invest in a night scope and put it on a rifle(something larger than a .22 rimfire). It won't be cheap, but you will be able to thin 'em out at night simply becaue they are nocturnal. And you will be able to reach out and touch 'em! I think you will find that once hunted aggresivly, they will move on to better huntin grounds...the ultimate goal.
RD

 

[RonMar]

I grew up in central Oregon and packs of coyotes were common. We also have packs around our home here in Wa. Here are some things I learned growing up there:

1. A pack of coyotes eats a LOT of food. When neighborhood cats and dogs start dissappearing, they have exhausted their normal food supply and are feeding on prey of opportunity. It is time to go hunting.

2. It is likley that some of those dogs that have "dissappeared" are not dead. If they were predominantly outside dogs and lacked a strong human bond(and allowed to run free), they may have joined the pack for companionship. Unfortunatly this influence that dosn't fear man may lead the pack to do things a native pack would not do such as close approaches to homes and pets and children. When I was 8 years old we lost our Collie to our neighbors 2 black labs that were allowed to run free and joined up with a pack of coyotes. That hit and run you described would be a good way to lure a dog away into the bush and gang up on it. It was good that your dogs were trained well enough to come when called.

I make it a habit of knowing my neighbors and their pets. If I see a dog running free and I can't call it to me to detain it or ID it as one of my neighbors, I will shoot it! If it is a neighbor's dog and it won't come to me, I go call the neighbor to retrieve it. If they are unsuccessfull or unwilling, I shoot it! Don't get me wrong, I love dogs and have owned a dog for as long as I can remember(As I type this there is a yellow lab named Sadie laying on my foot). I would not lightly deprive someone of their dog but A domestic dog gone wild is a danger.

3. Coyotes are typically pretty shy. The only reason you will usually see a coyote in the daylight is if it is hungry or has picked up some habits from domestic dogs. If you start seeing Coyotes in the daytime, it is time to go hunting.

4. If coyotes are routinely surprised, they will remain wary and eventually move elsewhere. You could identify and "mine" the trails and runways in the brush around your property. Nothing lethal that might hurt your children, dogs or your neighbors pets, just something unexpected. Tripwires to noisemakers, string snares tied to tin cans, fishing line tied between bushes, Caltrops(animal equivelent of a spike strip, multi pointed objects spread in fields to break up calvary charges). Routing gunfire around your property, particularly in the evening and when you hear the packs close by might also help to disuade them from approaching further.

Next time you set out by the fire, take the shotgun and the spotlight. As mentioned, they are quick, you will rarely get one chance let alone a second. My personal preference is a pistol and a flashlight. Unless the light is attached to the shotgun it is harder to illuminate and shoot singlehanded with the shotgun. My other preference for low light shooting is a red dot sight such as a Pro-Point or Aimpoint. You can use these with both eyes open without actually seeing the target thru the sight tube. You just need to be able to superimpose the dot over the target in any fashion and that is where the shot is going to go. A laser sight might also make target aquisition quicker in low light, but I don't have much experience with these to comment. As for your choice of ammo, unless you are close enough to hit one before the shot expands much(30'-40'), you are most likley only going to wound it with #4. You either want to hit it with a single larger calibre projectile or use larger shot.. I would reccomend 00 Buck(.22 calibre pellets).

A gated fence around the immediate yard might ease your wife's fears a bit particularly where the children are concerned.

Welcome to the jungle...

 

[JJT]

Where are you in upstate NY? I'm 45 miles north-west of Albany. Some years are worse than others for coyotes, with no snow this winter, I imagine they will be thick this year. We hear them frequently but have seen nothing up close. If I were in your shoes I'd start a campaign of elimination. Personally I have no problems with baiting and night hunting, these are nuisance animals. A few nights with a few friends and you should be able to thin them out. Upgrade the shot to 00.

 

[Laminarman]

I'm in the Binghamton area. This was a scary event, and more bothersome now that I've slept on it for a night. I know their trails pretty well. I'm going to Gander Mountain to look for supplies. I have a friend who lives nearby who is willing to help my "campaign of elimination". Thanks for all the help.

 

[dmccarty]

L'man,

We a coyote problem but nothing like yours thankfully.

I have started cutting back the brush near the house. Its open anywhere from 75 to 100 feet already but I'm clearing the brush out especially near the kids playset. My dad did call one coyote in one morning but he had my dog with him and she chased it away.

Unfortunately NC does not allow night hunting of coyotes which is BS.

Once I get more of the brush removed I'll go after the pests. I have seen them within 100 feet of the house. The took a yearling deer 20-30 feet off our bedroom one night. And I have found where they where eating deer parts 75-100 feet off my kids side of the house. The one I saw one morning showed no fear what so ever.

They need to go....

Later,
Dan

 

[PBinWA]

Be careful about publicizing your campaign of elimination. Some people aren't so considerate of the problems that coyotes present.

Remember the three S's: Shoot, Shovel, & SHUTUP.

 

[JimR]

Coyotes in packs will take out your two Labs and your kids with ease. Be smart and thin them out before this happens. The coyotes are not worth losing a dog or a child over. I can see why your city wife is just a little bit upset. If you don't cure the problem she will move back to the city where she thinks it is safe for the kids to play. As mentioned, raw meat and a distress call will bring them in quickly. We have the same coyote problem around me also in central Ma. There are quite a few people that hunt them down like rats illegaly. No one cares that this is happening and nobody misses their loud howling in the middle of the night.

 

[EddieWalker]

How positive are you that they are coyotes?

The behavior you describe doesn't sound like coyotes to me, but more like a pack of wild dogs. Coyotes don't like human contact and go to allot of effort to avoid people. Even a large pack is no match for a healthy adult and you have very little to fear from them.

They will attack small children when left un-attended, but that's not what you described.

Having your dogs with you should have been plenty of a deterent. It doesn't matter the breed, they know the danger of humans and should not have been anywhere near you, regardless of their numbers.

A pack of wild dogs are totolly different and can be very dangerous. Most are abused pets that have been abandonded or escaped. They don't have the same fear of people that coyotes do and may actually go to homes for a source of food. Their experience with humans lends to there lack of fear.

Either way, you have a problem and you need to address it.

Shooting one isn't gonna do much and expecting to get more than one isn't very likely. Trapping isn't very productive either.

Poison is very effective,but it might be illegal.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[JimMorrissey]

Laminarman,

I studied Coyotes a bit at our University......Read up on the breeding habits some. The last thing you want to do is start killing off the alpha female(s). The lesser fems will step up to take her place, except this time the top two fems will breed and so on down the line as they killed off. They'll breed earlier in life and more often when under attack.....this is their strategy for survival and makes it extremely hard to get rid of them, if not impossible as a part time endeavor. I would seriously look into alternatives to shooting/trapping. It might work short term, but they'll be back in numbers within a couple of years. Just something to think about.

We've had them right outside the door and a couple of times need to break out the 12ga. It is unnerving to say the least.

 

[PBinWA]

Poison is very effective,but it might be illegal.

Poison is also non-discriminating killer. It should be avoided unless you want to accidentally kill your pets or one of your neighbor's pets.

Not all stray pets are bad. Sometimes they are just lost or curious. No need to kill everything that wanders by.

On the east coast there is a lot of hybridization of the coyote population. Lots of dog and wolf DNA is being found in the coyotes. They are different animals than the more pure and smaller west coast coyote.

If well fed the Coyotes around here are pretty shy. A good flashlight gets rid of them quickly. I think they are well fed as we have lots of rabbits too.

PB

 

[JimR]

Just a little info about coyotes and people. One of my neighbors almost lost her little dog to a couple coyotes a few years back. She beat them off with a broom. She was not more than 30 feet from the house on her lawn when they attacked.

 

[rox]

OMG!!! OMG!!! I dont' have to go back and read your first post becasue I remember it clearly, very clearly. I also remember that I thought you should shoot the coyotes even at night even if it was against the law. I would talk with my neighbors first so that when they hear gunshos they won't worry.

When they were by your bedroom window, and I dont' care if it is dogs or coyotes or wolves, they were by your house, that is yoru domaine and the wild animals got to go. I am 100% on your wifes side. I would be scared well you know what comes next but this is a family forum so I can't say.

The ony way I would stay there was if there was a good fence that would keep the animals away and keep the children and I safe. I can safely say that your wife will never get over this. I remember very clearly every event where my children's safety was in danger and my kids are 31 & 25. She will never get over this. Of course you have to kill these animals but that would not be enough for me. I also would want that dog that was mentioned int he other post and a big fence. That is the only way I would even consider staying. This was a real trauma for all of you probably more for her and the kids than for you since you are a hunter, but even still we can read by your psots that it got to you as well.

I'm terrified just reading your story and I wasn't even there. I would want the fence all the way around my house with a remote control gate at the driveway entrance. Not even just a backyard fence would do it for me. I also would not stay in that house without the fence, it would be a "demand" (for lack of a better word) that I would not be able to negotiate. I could not live with the fear, I would have to move, with you or without you, but I would not stay without a fence. Even hunting them would not satisfy me, although I would want you to do that. Whatever your wife's "demands (again for lack of a bettr word), if you want to stay in the house in the country that you love, then whatever your wife wants I am 100% supportive of her. If I were in her place I would learn to shoot a gun and I never have had a desire to do that.

This thread just literally terrifies me. Sorry if I wrote to strongly, I was feeling a lot fo emotion when I wrote it.

 

[JimR]

Rox, One thing about coyotes is that they are good diggers. I don't think a fence is the answer. I do think eliminating them down to a few would help this guy out big time. A couple of German Shepherds and a few llamas would help too. A llama will kick the bejesus out of a coyote.

 

[Tom_H]

We have a pack around us. I hear them at night all the time. I've even heard them walking in the cobblestone, which surrounds the edge of the house, right under the window at night. I see their scat all the time. When the pack wanders away for a few months, the population of pocket gophers and jackrabbits go way up and I start getting a lot of gopher holes in the turf and eaten up plants in the garden. When the pack re-enters this part of their territory, those problems go away.

We are in a rural/ag area and people around here just don't have a problem with them. I have seen a couple of them pester a newborn calf in the daytime on the ranch next door, but I don't know of anyone reporting killed pets and certainly not children.

I used to be a professional guide, and have spent numerous multiple-week expeditions in the Rockies, Sierra, Appalachians, and southern coastal river swamps. I have encountered bobcats, black bears, wild boars, and coyotes, all during both daytime and while sleeping in a sleeping bag under a tarp at night. I've also encountered water moccasins, copperheads, rattlesnakes, and alligators during the daytime. Once on the A.T. in VA, we tiptoed through a bed of 14 eastern diamondbacks, 6 on one side of the trail and 8 on the other. Normally just keeping your cool and not doing something dumb is enough. Often, animals can tell by instinct whether you are a threat to them. In the Rockies, once in CO and once in NM, I came upon a heard of Elk, took off my pack, and walked among the herd for several miles. When I lived in the Sierra, a friend and I would often jog together on a logging road. There was one coyote that would often follow us and we would sometimes chase him if he was in front of us. In the CO Rockies, there have been several nights, both summer and winter, that my camp was surrounded by a pack of coyotes, who did nothing more than howl all night. I came to cherish that sense of wildness. Their chorus gave me a sense of peace that I was in a natural place as God had created it instead of some ugly city built by man. When I was a kid, I lived in rural south GA, had guns and hunted. I started spending serious time in the wilds in scouts during high school and then became a guide during my college summers. I continued guiding during summers and on nordic ski-packing expeditions in the winter. In all the thousands and thousands of miles I've packed and paddled, I have never encountered a situation in which I really and truly needed a gun.

I have conservative friends who think I'm too liberal and liberal friends who think I'm too conservative. Personally, I try to take a level headed, middle of the road, common sense approach to everything. Should ANWR be drilled? Probably, BUT with regulations more strict than any ever imposed. Should Yellowstone Park be drilled? Hopefully, never.

I absolutely cannot stand the suburbs. I used to live in a neighborhood where I could almost reach out my bathroom window and into the neighbor's window if I needed to borrow some shampoo. I hated it. Visiting some cities like Vancouver, Zurich, or San Francisco is something I can tolerate for a few days if I have to. I have the country in my blood. I work in the suburbs, but I had to have some wild space around me.

I think there are a lot of people who overreact to things they are not used to. I have liberal city friends who overreact to gun ownership and drives to open ANWR. I also have conservative friends whom I think are too radical in some of their beliefs. I do not intend for what I'm going to say to be offensive. Maybe people who hate the city shouldn't live there. Likewise, maybe people who are uncomfortable around the wilderness shouldn't live there. I think Eddie's situation with the pigs warrants reasonable action. They are animals who were previously domestic and have reverted to feral life. They are not really at home in any ecosystem. Coyotes, on the other hand, are not such a true threat. I moved to a rural area because I needed to be near some things wild. If hoards of people came here and started shooting everything wild, plowing up and paving over everything, and building high rises, I would not want to be here anymore. I came here to get away from all that and be near wild things. I absolutely love it when the coyotes around my house sing me to sleep at night. When I retire, I hope to move as deep into a forest as possible. With all humilty and with no malace intended, I really think that going out to shoot the coyotes is not necessary. There are two other choices: get used to them, or go back to the city. I personally like wild places and like living there. If one moves to to the country, there ought to be a reason for wanting to do that. If that person discovers that (s)he is actually frightened by the country, instead of trying to turn it into the city, (s)he can either get used to the country, or go back to the city. By shooting wild animals that are not truly dangerous, (s)he makes the country a little more like the city (s)he came there to escape.

This is not meant to be a flame and it is intended with no malice. Still, I really encourage you to think about this. Why did you move to this place to start with? Did you, like me, want to get away from too many people to a more rural and wild place? Wild things are a part of that. Rather than trying to make your surroundings more like the city you moved away from, I encourage you to make some efforts to try to embrace those things around you that are wild. You may discover that they are actually a part of what you were really looking for all along.