Morton ploe barn-How square should it be ????

[Docsknotinn]

I need some help guys. I don't know much about buildings. I hired Morton to put up a 24 x 54 pole barn with a 24 x 24 insulated room. The cost is about 10k more than all the other builders. I like a lot of the things they offered and I bought into the idea of superior quality etc etc. My building is up but the concrete is not in. The first thing I noticed was that the roof has high spots and low spots. I don't know how much but it is visible if you look at the edge. Perhaps 1/2 to 1" rise and fall. When you go inside it looks like some of the trusses are twisted in the laminated beams. The beams themselves are bolted together at the top but not the bottom. It looks like some of the beams have settled and twisted, slightly separating. Two of the beams are out of square enough that they do not touch the outside wood or metal. The only door in at the moment is a human door on the outside of the building. It is out of square enough that the dead bolt will not shut unless the door is not closed all the way. Clearly I need to have a Pow Wow with the folks at Morton but what is reasonable to expect in the squareness of the Cadillac of metal buildings ? What's a fair resolve ? It appears when they dug the footings for the trusses they did not go deep enough and just used loose sand to fill in around the posts. I thought they would use pea stone to hold them in place at the base.
WHAT WOULD YOU DO ????? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[JJT]

I certainly hope you didn't make the final payment. I'd get the builder back ASAP. As for square, if the diagonals are within .5" you've got a nice square building. If not, and the sheet metals is on, it's tool late to true it up.

You paid a premium for a premium building, hold your builder's feet to the fire and get what you paid for.

Keep us posted and good luck.

 

[Docsknotinn]

Ok how do I check the diagonals ??? The sheet metal is on. My biggest concern is the beams that dont touch the sidewall and the uneven appearance of the roof line. I assume this all ties back to the beams not being square.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Doc,

To check the diagonals you simply go inside and measure diagonally from corner to corner one way (like from NE corner to SW corner) then measure the opposite diagonal (in my example, from NW corner to SE corner) then compare the two measurements. If they match, then your building is square.

If you're not happy, get hold of your builder ASAP and make him aware of your concerns. Also, make certain you document EVERYTHING just in case this thing goes south. If you have a local building department, get hold of them Monday morning and tell them you have concerns and ask if the inspector could come out and have a look.

Good luck with this. I hope it works out for you. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Ozarker]

Twisted beams...wavy roof line...doors that won't close right....unacceptable.

I'd tell them to take it back apart and put it together right. If they can't do that, then they could take it apart and get it off my property.

 

[Docsknotinn]

Ok to take the diagonal measurement I have another question. The insulated room is already built. So I have a garage that is 30x24 and another room that is 24x24. Can I just measure one of the rooms or do I measure both and add the difference to get a total amount of how far out of square the building is. One thing that occurs to me is that there was no sand or material around the beams, at all, from where they should have dug the holes for the footings.
Ultimately if up is up and this is the way it is I'm sure things like the door can be straightened. What is a reasonable resolve ? Do I ask for X amount of dollars off the bill or what ? This was a 37k+ project.
What really bothers me is there is whole list of things. Missing trim, osb liner on the wainscotting with 1/4" gaps in places ( you can see to the outside ). I assume that all of the panels are 4' in width and the gaps on the south side wall are a result of the building not being square. I had a flag pole put in that was supposed to be set in cement. It looks like they set a 4" ground insert in a single bag of quickrete and then stuck a 3" pole in it. It just flops back and forth. $400 . That can come out or come off the bill. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif In the insulated room the ceiling is made of metal. They cut a 30" crawl space door in the ceiling. They only problem is the contract specified that the crawl space was supposed to be cut in the gable wall facing the garage.
Sorry for the rant it just seems a bit overwhelming. I guess I thought when I hired Morton theese were things that I was paying extra to avoid.
I'm trying to not be PO'd about this but it is very frustrating as I don't know what is a reasonable resolve. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I certainly do not feel I owe them the full final payment and there needs to be some adjustment.
One of the things I am considering is calling them and telling them to stop and not put the concrete in until we resolve theese issues.

 

[daedong]

This was a 37k+ project

contact your local building inspector asap, you need an expert on site.

 

[crb478]

you would need to measure the whole building out side corner to out side corner to see if the corners are square to each other not a individual room in the building which could be square when the surrounding building was not. I like the diagionals to be with in 1/4 inch, but would not complain if they were 1/2 inch out. It sounds like you got very poor workmanship or materials. I would have the builder take it back apart and assemble it right and not reuse any materials that were not correct and like new.

 

[Docsknotinn]

How do I measure it out side corner to corner ? Do you mean just measure the width of each sidewall ?

 

[ronjhall]

Docsknotinn

Your problems are not consistent with Morton's reputation. I'm sure that your concerns will be properly addressed.

As has already been mentioned, make sure that the local building inspector is notified of the problems. When a builder in my community applies for a building permit they have to post a bond. Not getting this money back will get his attention.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

It doesn't sound like Morton. And I'm sure they'll make it right.

Remember in school A squared plus B squared equal C Squared?

If you want to check square on a corner pull some measurements on two intersecting walls. Three four five is a good one. Measure down three feet down one wall, make a mark. Measure down the other wall four feet, make a mark.

It should measure five feet diagonally between the marks.

You can use any variation of this, six eight ten etc.

Laying out a slab or fence is much easier this way than the old move the diagonal technique, especially if like me one is working by himself.

You take each side and multiply it by itself. Then you add those two numbers together. Sixty by a hundred foot would be thirty six hundred plus ten thousand. The square root of thirteen thousand six hundred is one hundred sixteen feet and six tenths of an inch. That's your're diagonal measurement.

Working by yourself you'd find one plane. Let's say it's the hundred foot line and you want that line to be parallel to the road, the house, whatever. You make those marks a hundred feet apart.

Then go out sixty feet as close to perpidicular to the hundred foot line as experience and common sense will allow. Make a mark. From the opposite corner or hundred foot mark pull off one hundred and sixteen feet and six tenths of an inch. Where the sixty foot mark and the diagonal one meet is your squared corner of that end of the building or fence.

To find the last corner measure down one hundred feet from your found corner and up sixty feet from the far corner. You can do a double diagonal measurement for excerise or self satisfaction. It will be dead on.

If you do this with a kid that's having problems in math in school but he loves making things. He or she will find a whole new reason to pay attention from now on in math classes. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If like me your math teacher was an old gal you could call this a "biddy ditty".

 

[hockeyhead]

I WOULD NOT let them pour concrete at all!! , until all issue are resolved. I would also take alot of pictures and a video with friends and family in it showing the problems with my building. There is a chance that these are not Morton's employees installing your building but a contractor that installs building kits for Morton pole buildings. You need to find out who the men working on your building work for. If it is an contractor, he does not want to rebuild at his cost, neither does he what Mortons Pole Building Inc. to hear about his poor workmanship. When your complaints are known, they will start blaming each other for the problem and you will become the overzealous owner, demanding your version of perfection, that where the pictures and video come in, copies can be sent to corporate to show you are not making a mountain out of a mole hill. Morton Pole buildings does have a fantastic reputation in southeast MI, That's why they get a premium price for there product. Happy hunting, for the solution to the problem

 

[Henro]

Myself, for a project costing this much, I would pay an expert to come in and evaluate what is there. I think the advice of everyone so far is right on.

For me, paying $500 or whatever it took to get an unbiased opinion in writing from someone with credentials would be well worth it. It would first confirm that I was seeing things properly, and second it would give me a big bullet to shoot at whomever I needed to.

This would be in addition to getting the local building inspector out asap.

I would act immediately without delay. Let the expert make the measurements need to verify out of square conditions and so on.

I also would not pay a penny more until the situation was resolved. And I would not permit any further consitruction (like was mentioned, don't pour the concrete(! ) until the current questions are resolved.

"I'm not an expert, but things still look wrong to me. However "MR. X " is an expert, and his evaluation is that this building has not been put up properyly for these reasons...here is his report...make it right or see you in court..."

Hopefully it would not have to get to that point...but it sure can't hurt to have some formal backup to your position when a building that costs this much is the issue, and you will have to live with it for a long time...

PS...an expert is not just a guy from out of town...It should be an experienced architect or perhaps a professional engineer...

 

[srs]

Don't do anything further on the building until you have everything fixed. Especially not paying a dime more!!!!! Get the Morton sales person out and tell/show him what you think is wrong. Contact the home office of Morton and complain. I had a Morton building in the past and was very impressed with their quality, workmanship, etc. You pay a premium price and you should get premium work. Morton does not want the bad publicity, and will not allow substandard work to be performed by their employees. Even if they have to take down and remove roofing panels, etc. they will do what ever it takes to make it correct. If they used just sand or pea gravel for the footers somebody screwed up BIG TIME. Where were the local inspectors out to check to make sure they used concrete? If no concrete was used it sounds like they took major shortcuts. With the extreme cold temperatures in Michigan I'm assuming that the frost line is much deeper than here on the east coast. It should not have even gotten this far with such poor quality workmanship. Keep the pressure up and contact the home office.

 

[DannyD]

My building is within a .25 of square, these guys were good. One of the crew also builds BIG bridges so he HAS to be good and he carries his professional ethics to his private work.

On the building, they would be tearing it down, packing it up, and heading out of the county...........you have heard of shotgun wedddings, this would be sort of like that, only I would be divorcing this contractor. NO reason for half the problems you see, and if they let it go as is..............that would be very sad.

TAKE PHOTOS NOW. Everything you see make sure to document with photos, and if needed video, such as the door thing, show that on video. Take your own measurements and photo record them also. This sounds like either a sloppy job done with hired contract help, or they are going on your inexperience and hoping to get it done. You might also contact the BBB, your local contractor unions, local building codes enforcement folks, the folks that financed this, if so, etc. The more you folks you have wondering about the quality of work they do, the more ammo you have to get some results.

 

[jayhawkRoy]

When you communicate with the contractor or Morton HQs, make sure you send your letters either certified, return receipt, or registered. If this problem gets to court, you will need to show not only that you outlined your problems but that the appropriate entities received your letters. If you get the contractor or salesperson out for any discussions, follow up with a certified letter outlining what agreements or discussions were held.

Do not hesitate to send the first notice that there are problems and you want all work stopped until the problems you outine are resolved.

I think I would wait for an assessment from a professional engineer until after I had my first round of discussions with the contractor/salesman and Morton HQs (early next week?). If you get a feeling they will not resolve your issues, then go for the professional engineer's opinion.

 

[Docsknotinn]

Ok guys here is a update. The salesman called me this am after getting a phone message last night. He took my list and drove out to the barn. He was very concerned about what he heard. The flag pole will be set in concrete as it should be when the slab is poured. The dead bolt needs to be fixed on the door. The crawl space in the ceiling instead of the gabled wall had to be put there or they would have had to cut the center of a truss. Don't ask why they didn't know that when they wrote the bid and the contract. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif He does not feel the beams are separating other than normal warpage etc or is any different from what he normally sees. I will be up to meet him Wednesday and I will take some photos to post. In short of the small issues were easily resolved. He does not feel the roof is uneven but instead feels that it is a optical illusion and it may be. I had a neighbor come over who has a pole barn and look. He thought it was uneven as well. We looked at his and it looks straight as a arrow. The gaps on the OSB were " more than he would like to see". Of course when I hear that all I can think is I am paying more than I want to pay ! I decided to think about that until we meet on Wednsday. He told me there needs to be some gap in case the OSB swells. I nearly fell of my chair because the OSB on the other side is very tight. So we are going to have to look at that. He does not feel any of the trusses are twisted etc. I am only concearned about 1 I can see. Wednsday I will take a ladder and put a level on it. If its not plum I will be hiring a profession building engineer to completely inspect everything. Now for the clincher. The beam I was worried about the most that does not touch the sidewall is out of spec. He says they must have hit it with the tractor before the concrete in the footings set. I am guessing they used sackqrete. Ok no problem stuff happens. Here is where I start to get upset. I hired the TOP DOG. Even when I was a kid and we built stuff we would check it with a string. Now they have laser levels and all kinds of goodies to make the job quicker and easier. Why the heck didnt they knock that footing and beam out and replace it before they put the sidewall up ? Clearely they knew it was out and were going to pour the concrete with out saying a word. Concrete is on hold now. They will remove the beam and footing but to do so they must remove a good portion of the sidewall and brace the truss while the work is done. I'm hearing concearns of causing more problems than they fix. I guess my whole position at this point boils down to if that truss is level or not when I check it. If it is then we certainly have problems. If it is not and it is just the one beam then I either want a discount or the work fixed. I will have to closely inspect the other beams. I think one other is slightly twisted all though not nearly as bad.

 

[tracdoc]

Hi Docsknotinn,
First of all, let me say that I admire your careful measured response to this debacle. You will get a lot further than if you simply "blow up." Keep the pressure on the home office, and I concur with others about getting the inspector out there. The "explanations" of the Morton folks so far are transparent, weak excuses for a poor job.

On the matter of getting a discount or fixing it, I would be especially cautious. IMHO, a "discount" should only be considered if the amount of the discount is at least equal to or greater than the cost of materials and labor which would be required to make it right, as calculated by a bona fide estimate by a qualified individual.

The way I look at it is that a building that is not up to spec on Day 1, can at the best stay the same, but more likely it will deteriorate over time. If you ever plan to sell, a buyer will surely discount the value steeply when he/she conducts a pre-purchase inspection. As financially attractive a discount can be initially, its value will pale over time. I would opt for insisting on getting exactly what you are paying for-- quality product and quality workmanship. My $0.02: They screwed up, and they should make it whole again on their own nickel.

Please keep us posted...

 

[Docsknotinn]

Well it's 4 am and I certainly can't say I'm not loosing sleep over this. When I went up the other day I was not prepared for this so I didn't have a square, a level, ladder etc. I still believe in the main garage there is another beam that is off but not as badly as the one I spoke about with the sales person. The problem is there are 8 more beams in the 24 x 24 insulated room area that I can not really see. The room is lined with OSB. On one sidewall there is a single seam that does not line up nearly as well as the others. I would guess one panel sticks out 2/8 of a inch but that is just a guess. It really bothers me that they are offering to replace the one beam it but indicating at the same time it may create more problems than it fixes. The other thing I keep going back to in my mind is the roof line. All of my neighbors barns have 1x4 purlins that run across the top of the trusses for the roofing to screw on to. My plans call for 2x4 purlins. I don't think there are any there at all if they are what I am thinking of. The metal roof is only screwed to the trusses which are 6' on center. I am leaning very hard towards calling a civil/structural engineer to inspect the building.

 

[crb478]

I would pull a string to see if the roof were straight and flat. Put a 1/2 in piece of wood under the string on each end and pull it tight, this way it will not simply follow the roof. I do not buy that by replacing the one beam they will be creating any problems unless they already know that more things are wrong. If the contract says purlins I would make sure they are up there. And if the access door is in the wrong place as specificed by the contract that is there problem have them re engineer it and put it where it was called for. I think you may need to move a little higher up the Morton chain to get this done right.