Mod for hydraulic pump?

   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #21  
My problem is the pto pump is putting out 1500 pounds pressure at peak output on engine, no stalling problems on engine or lack of power on drives. I have a power rake and it doesn’t have the power on the loader cylinders to pick up the unit when I use for more than 5 min I don’t know what my pressures are then, but when cold ambient temp 68 outside I have max 1500 pounds pressure out of my pump.
Does your PTO pump also power the lift? I don't think so. So maybe your PTO pump is fine, but maybe your STEERING/FEL/QUICK ATTACH pump is weak?
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Does your PTO pump also power the lift? I don't think so. So maybe your PTO pump is fine, but maybe your STEERING/FEL/QUICK ATTACH pump is weak?

The pto powers everything but steering and the drives

I’m only getting 1500 lbs. pressure when cold, Terry said it should be 2500, haven’t tested hot, but I’m sure it falls off when hot,
When hot it will barely pick up a bucket of dirt, never had a PT pucker lol.
Moves very well just no lifting capability.
 
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   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Somewhere on here, I did a calculation and write up about the HP needed for the 425 (I have two 425’s). It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, the 425 needs a full 25 HP when under a full load, such as mowing a slope for example. This makes sense as the 425 has a 25 HP engine, right? Well, not really. The 25 HP rating for the Subaru EH72 is peak horsepower. The continuous horsepower rating is much lower…around 19 HP if I remember correctly. Consequently, I concluded the engine is underpowered for mowing applications.

I went through this study because my engine had failed and I needed to get a new one. I had always suspected the engine was underpowered and wanted to confirm my suspicion. I ended up dropping in a 32 HP Subaru engine because, at the time, it was the only engine available that would mostly fit (still required a LOT of custom modification though). The difference in tractor performance is night and day (I also increased the displacement of the wheel motors).

Now, I'm not recommending you replace your engine again. I’m just suggesting a larger output hydraulic pump may not solve your problem. Unless you are stalling the existing hydraulic motor (or pushing it to the point where the pressure reliefs open) it’s possible the “weak” impression is more a function of engine output than pump output. There’s a lot of issues involved here and it’s hard to make a firm assessment without understanding more about your specific situation. But the easiest way to get more “power” for an attachment is to increase the displacement of the attachment motor (at the expense of motor speed). So, you may want to ensure the fundamental performance problem isn’t engine power, rather than pump output.

If the pump motor is rated for 8-12 gpm does stand to reason if I have 12 gpm flowing on the pump motor that it will have more power than 8 gpm on the same pump?
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
  • Thread Starter
#25  
I wonder why they didn't make the 2422 plumbed the same as the 422 or 425?

I actually might be wrong ........ : /

There I said it!
Not sure, I have the schematics at home .

Terry gave me a part number fo another pump that would fit mine and it bumps it to a little over 9 gpm by his conversation, I think it is the way I want to go.

Part # p139x1 from power Trac

A good compromise hopefully
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #27  
Catching up with the post stream here...let me ask another question. Are the pumps we're talking about variable displacement or fixed displacement? You can tell by looking for either a pilot hydraulic line (a tiny thing) running to the pump or a wire (for an electrohydraulic or EH) system. I suspect that PT uses a cable on the pedals to stroke the pump's pinnel plate in some of their models, and that's OK too (if kinda old school).

On tram circuits, often there is a variable displacement pump. At idle the pinnel plate is in neutral and even thought the pump is spinning (because it has to - it's mechanically connected to the motor) it's not actually doing much if any work. When you engage the drive, the pinnel tips one way or the other to cause a variable amount of flow to the circuit. So it's kinda weird on the tank turns calculation. Technically at neutral you have infinite tank turns (X gallons of tank / ZERO flow of gal / min) but at full pinnel (or stroke) you get the full rated flow. In part this is where duty cycle comes from for tank turns. Sure you'd turn the tank REAL FAST at full stroke, but how often and for how long do you really tram at full flow? Now that said I've noticed that lots of tramming DOES get things toasty pretty quickly on my PT-425, but not concerningly so thus far. It's not like I drive it miles at a time at full wampum....is more like zip to a pile and zip to someplace else kind of a thing.

That said, to some degree you really should design for the worst case situation that was described earlier. So if you are at full tram, full pto, and somehow full work tool effort on the lift / tilt (how? it's probably possible...) your tank turns get realllllllly small and things get hot. Quick. Like dang hot. But in theory that shouldn't happen too often or too long so often a manufacturer will kinda cheat the calculation a bit.

A fixed displacement pump - like a gear pump, a vane pump, or some low-cost piston pumps - operate in an open loop system where they pump all the time regardless of the control positions and just bypass back to tank when there's no flow to a working circuit. That will also produce a relatively low tank turns calculation too, but since the work being done isn't much (just some flow up and down and around but no real effort) you can run your tank turns down a bit lower than I wrote earlier but it can get risky without a good cooler. On some large yellow machines I'm aware of where the tank turns are a bit on the lower side and you're @riding the cooler@ it pays off to periodically pulse the electric cooling fan backwards to blow the crap out of it so you don't get caught out on heat buildup.

On the very largest wheel loaders - like in mining applications - the drive to the ground is usually either mechanical or electrical, not hystat. One of the big reasons for that is in that size of machine the resulting hydraulic tank size would affect the payload capacity of the machine...because that would be a LOT of oil! Those things are really interesting...but that's a story for another time.
Power-Tracs use a closed loop drive circuit. Oil in the drive circuit is not filtered and does not return to the tank (except for what bypasses and is made up by the charge pump). So, tank turns are not really an issue regarding the VDP.

The charge pump is a gear pump. MossRoad (check out my good memory MR) has reported his 425 will heat up to the point of the fan coming on (when his temp sensor worked) if he cranks the tractor to warm up and shovels snow for a few minutes. In other words, a 425 running 3 gear pumps (charge, PTO, steering etc) will heat the oil considerably doing no work. However, I wouldn't worry much about this issue when considering a larger capacity pump for a PT.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #28  
I actually might be wrong ........ : /

There I said it!
Not sure, I have the schematics at home .

Terry gave me a part number fo another pump that would fit mine and it bumps it to a little over 9 gpm by his conversation, I think it is the way I want to go.

Part # p139x1 from power Trac

A good compromise hopefully
Agreed. If you have really low pressure, it's probably time.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #29  
Power-Tracs use a closed loop drive circuit. Oil in the drive circuit is not filtered and does not return to the tank (except for what bypasses and is made up by the charge pump). So, tank turns are not really an issue regarding the VDP.

The charge pump is a gear pump. MossRoad (check out my good memory MR) has reported his 425 will heat up to the point of the fan coming on (when his temp sensor worked) if he cranks the tractor to warm up and shovels snow for a few minutes. In other words, a 425 running 3 gear pumps (charge, PTO, steering etc) will heat the oil considerably doing no work. However, I wouldn't worry much about this issue when considering a larger capacity pump for a PT.

THAT'S fascinating...the drive circuit loop doesn't pass back to tank...and there's enough thermal mass to keep from completely cooking the oil when tramming for a long time? That's kinda interesting...thanks for the info!
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #30  
That's also kinda cool because if you critically failed an implement - like pumped the implement circuit dry for some reason - you could still drive home. Huh....
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #31  
That's also kinda cool because if you critically failed an implement - like pumped the implement circuit dry for some reason - you could still drive home. Huh....
I would file that one under a definite "Maybe".

The charge pump still needs oil to charge the variable volume drive pump, and getting air in that pump is especially bad since it is so complex mechanically. That's why we go through the whole bleed the filter routine when changing the hydraulic filter.

There would also be the small problem of dry running the other pumps...

Personally, I would quit where the tractor had the issue, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #32  
I would file that one under a definite "Maybe".

The charge pump still needs oil to charge the variable volume drive pump, and getting air in that pump is especially bad since it is so complex mechanically. That's why we go through the whole bleed the filter routine when changing the hydraulic filter.

There would also be the small problem of dry running the other pumps...

Personally, I would quit where the tractor had the issue, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

All the best,

Peter

I had kinda written off the other pumps when they pumped the tank dry. Nuthin goods gonna happen at that point!

Losing hydraulic fluid is kinda the PT equivalent of bleeding out. Small cut, not a big deal. Pulsing artery, probably not gonna end well. LOL
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #33  
THAT'S fascinating...the drive circuit loop doesn't pass back to tank...and there's enough thermal mass to keep from completely cooking the oil when tramming for a long time? That's kinda interesting...thanks for the info!

A key purpose of the charge pump is also to cool the VDP. On larger tractors, like my 1845, the wheel motors also have a separate case drain for bypass and to help with cooling. Consequently, these circuits are not "pure" closed loop.

A BIG downside of closed loop is the lack of any filtering. Therefore, when the loop is opened for any reason, the loop should be filtered (e.g., with a 3 micron filter cart). I built my own filter with parts from Surplus Center and posted pictures on here somewhere of the design (it uses check valves so it can be used in forward or reverse without reversing the direction of the filtration...i.e., you can't connect it incorrectly).

I have three Power-Tracs and the VDP has required a rebuild on all three before 1000 hours. One of the rebuilds was discretionary but Terry said it was needed when I sent it in for inspection. This is VERY low hours for the service life of a VDP. I suspect this is caused by the lack of filtration in the motor circuit. Power-Trac considers the VDP as a wear item...i.e., it will require a rebuild from time to time. An **** retentive person would use a filter cart to filter the circuit on a routine basis to remove normal wear particles in the circuit. PT even recommended this procedure years ago and offered a kit for the filter. Lately, they don't mention it much...probably because one can easily do more damage than good if you're not careful.

I'm not "dissing" PT's engineering here. As mentioned, I have three...so I must like them. But I also have a couple Takeuchi machines and there's filters all over the place on those machines. Even my Kubota L3901 has several filters. In my opinion, PT could have engineered much better filtration. Or at least offered it as a profit making option...like they should offer larger displacement wheel motors as an option for those who want power over speed.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #34  
THAT'S fascinating...the drive circuit loop doesn't pass back to tank...and there's enough thermal mass to keep from completely cooking the oil when tramming for a long time? That's kinda interesting...thanks for the info!
The charge pump is internal to the variable volume pump.

The only oil that's filtered is the oil going to the charge pump inside the VVP.

The tram system is not closed loop. It still passes oil in and out of the VVP, so it's not closed.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
  • Thread Starter
#35  
A key purpose of the charge pump is also to cool the VDP. On larger tractors, like my 1845, the wheel motors also have a separate case drain for bypass and to help with cooling. Consequently, these circuits are not "pure" closed loop.

A BIG downside of closed loop is the lack of any filtering. Therefore, when the loop is opened for any reason, the loop should be filtered (e.g., with a 3 micron filter cart). I built my own filter with parts from Surplus Center and posted pictures on here somewhere of the design (it uses check valves so it can be used in forward or reverse without reversing the direction of the filtration...i.e., you can't connect it incorrectly).

I have three Power-Tracs and the VDP has required a rebuild on all three before 1000 hours. One of the rebuilds was discretionary but Terry said it was needed when I sent it in for inspection. This is VERY low hours for the service life of a VDP. I suspect this is caused by the lack of filtration in the motor circuit. Power-Trac considers the VDP as a wear item...i.e., it will require a rebuild from time to time. An **** retentive person would use a filter cart to filter the circuit on a routine basis to remove normal wear particles in the circuit. PT even recommended this procedure years ago and offered a kit for the filter. Lately, they don't mention it much...probably because one can easily do more damage than good if you're not careful.

I'm not "dissing" PT's engineering here. As mentioned, I have three...so I must like them. But I also have a couple Takeuchi machines and there's filters all over the place on those machines. Even my Kubota L3901 has several filters. In my opinion, PT could have engineered much better filtration. Or at least offered it as a profit making option...like they should offer larger displacement wheel motors as an option for those who want power over speed.

I think PT wanted to build a no frills piece of equipment and left the canvas of what it can become to the imagination of all the mad scientist, machinist, mechanics out there to enhance them to the limits of our imagination.

It’s like they started it with a rock solid foundation and said “ here ya go, have at it, enjoy it and we will support you in doing what you can and-will with it. We will help you to know what can and won’t work.
I love the opportunity to become the creator of my Machine to let it morph into something more than it was when I first found it, to see it evolve in its capabilities in the relationship I have with it learning its capabilities and enhancing them to cater to our needs and to help make life better in eachpart of the world each one of us live in

Ps. I know some of you get it, some of you don’t, if you don’t please disregard, I was talking to the ones that DO. Lol
 
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   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #36  
It is a fairly easy machine to work on and modify to your specific wants and needs, that's for sure.

I always thought it might make a great platform for someone with leg disabilities.

You could switch the steering and forward/reverse functions to 1 joystick fairly easily, I'd think.

So drive with the left hand and FEL with the right or vice versa.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump?
  • Thread Starter
#37  
It is a fairly easy machine to work on and modify to your specific wants and needs, that's for sure.

I always thought it might make a great platform for someone with leg disabilities.

You could switch the steering and forward/reverse functions to 1 joystick fairly easily, I'd think.

So drive with the left hand and FEL with the right or vice versa.

I bet most of us that have them have property that they have enhanced because of them, we are artists and creators in our corners of the world lol.
 
   / Mod for hydraulic pump? #38  
It is a fairly easy machine to work on and modify to your specific wants and needs, that's for sure.

I always thought it might make a great platform for someone with leg disabilities.

You could switch the steering and forward/reverse functions to 1 joystick fairly easily, I'd think.

So drive with the left hand and FEL with the right or vice versa.

Can confirm...4 bolts in the left ankle, 2 in the knee, 5 pound steel rod connects the two. I like the control setup for sure.
 

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