Given the current prices in 2025, what are your thoughts on PT422 over PT425?

[ponytug]

I don't get that. When you use a loader bucket and drive into a material pile or virgin earth, then curl the bucket back to lift and fill the bucket as your driving in, I stall out the hydraulics (relief valve opens). To me that puts as much stress on everything. When Leverage comes into the picture (longer attachment), it just makes the relief valve open with less weight, you don't get to work it harder/lift more utilizing the leverage. It works against your capabilities. Using arbitrary numbers, if the relief opens at 100 psi, the front end loader linkage sees a consistent pressure in relation to the 100 psi of hyd pressure. It is the same with a bucket, forks or excavator. The only time this would be an issue is if there is no circuit relief, that is needed when the control valve is in the closed position (oil locked into lift cylinder, hose and deadheaded at valve) and you apply greater force. Like when carrying a rock and you hit a pothole. Machines like John Deere have a relief valve to unload this force. Not sure if PT has this and when I think they engineered leakage into the system, this may be the reason (this is why a raised bucket will be on the ground in a short period of time).

Might there be an issue with the intermittent shocks as a bucket is pulled through gravel or uneven soil? I could see that at the same hydraulic pressure relief that might be more shock and torsion on the rollover with a backhoe.

All the best,

Peter

 

[m5040]

Might there be an issue with the intermittent shocks as a bucket is pulled through gravel or uneven soil? I could see that at the same hydraulic pressure relief that might be more shock and torsion on the rollover with a backhoe.

All the best,

Peter

Yes, I was up half the night thinking about this. We should probably start a new thread on the need for and adding a circuit relief. I think they are mostly needed in 2 circuits, the bucket curl (aux circuit) and the attachment curl back (Z bar piston). The aux circuit bucket curl is needed because the PT could use the tractor traction to pull the bucket through the dirt with a locked/closed hyd circuit and no relief. And as we discussed, the attachment curl-back which would be most noticeable when using an excavator attachment with thumb and carrying a max capacity object over rough terrain.

 

[ponytug]

Yes, I was up half the night thinking about this. We should probably start a new thread on the need for and adding a circuit relief. I think they are mostly needed in 2 circuits, the bucket curl (aux circuit) and the attachment curl back (Z bar piston). The aux circuit bucket curl is needed because the PT could use the tractor traction to pull the bucket through the dirt with a locked/closed hyd circuit and no relief. And as we discussed, the attachment curl-back which would be most noticeable when using an excavator attachment with thumb and carrying a max capacity object over rough terrain.

Yes, we probably should.

I think that relief when filling cylinders is one thing, but a relief on a filled cylinder might get one into safety issues. I have a vague memory of someone at Power-Trac telling me that the reason PT uses "leak down" type valves is to provide some pressure relief to prevent over pressure in the cylinders. It was mentioned in the context of warm cylinders cooling down and increasing the internal pressure and blowing out seals. I can imagine that using a leak down pressure relief might not provide enough relief for a loaded bucket over rough terrain. I don't see an obvious solution besides something electronic and complicated to hold position, but allow pressure changes, rather like kinematic GPS/laser control of leveling planes or buckets on work sites trying for highly defined, precise, and accurate grading, but using internal position encoders. Not cheap.

All the best,

Peter

 

[2manyrocks]

There is a lot of strain digging with a backhoe bucket, especially when rocks and tree roots are involved. PT mini hoe design appears to reply on turning the PT to dump material to the side. There are no outriggers on the mini hoe to distribute the force of digging to the ground.

One reason I dont own a 3pt backhoe is I was warned tractor rear ends have been known to break due to the forces involved.

 

[MossRoad]

There is a lot of strain digging with a backhoe bucket, especially when rocks and tree roots are involved. PT design appears to reply on turning the PT to dump material to the side. There are no outriggers to distribute the force of digging to the ground.

One reason I dont own a 3pt backhoe is I was warned tractor rear ends have been known to break due to the forces involved.

There's the mini-hoe, which attaches to the Quick Attach on the FEL arms like any other PT attachment. It's basically just the dipper stick and bucket. You have to turn and/or drive the PT in order to move it side-to-side.

Then there are the full backhoes on the 2400 series machines.

 

[2manyrocks]

There's also a huge difference in force required to dig compacted soil versus lifting something that has already been severed from the ground like a section of downed tree trunk.

 

[MossRoad]

There's also a huge difference in force required to dig compacted soil versus lifting something that has already been severed from the ground like a section of downed tree trunk.

Kinda/sorta.

Here's why I say that.

If I bury my forks in the ground, then try to lift, the rear tires come up off the ground (the infamous PT pucker).

If I push my forks under a huge log, then try to life, the rear tires also come up off the ground.

If I toss bags of cement onto my lifted forks until the tractor tips forward until the forks hit the ground or trailer, and the rear tires come off the ground, the tractor does not feel(experience any forces) any different from the other two examples.

It just doesn't. I think we can all agree that once the weight of the machine is overcome by the inability to lift the load the forces don't change after that.

The forces that can change are in the dump/curl motions, and side-to-side motions.

I have buried my forks in the ground, under immovable objects, and rocked the dump/curl back and forth to the point of bending the forks. That motion can change the geometry between the point of impact and the mounting point of the base of the FEL arms on the machine quite significantly. That could increase forces dramatically.

Also, side-to-side motion can put side forces on the FEL arms, and those can vary depending on the extension of the implement and point of contact with the immovable object.

So I can see how the mini-hoe could change the forces between the bucket and the FEL mounting points. Now, there are TWO places you can change the geometry; the original dump/curl point at the Quick Attach, and the dump/curl point at the mini-hoe bucket, so even more chance of high loads and dramatic changes in just short movements.

A fun example:

Load 800# of cement bags on the back of the forks right at the QA point and see how many bags you can stack until the rear tires lift off the ground.

Now stack the cement bags way out on the tips of the forks. You can only stack about half as many before the rear tires lift off the ground.

We all know that's due to leverage and the distance of the weight from the fulcrum, which in this case, are the front tires.

The front tire fulcrum doesn't care about the length of the lever. It still feels the same load.

The FEL arms don't care either. They feel the same load.

The only thing that cares is the forks and the QA area, as that is also a lever and fulcrum. The farther out on the tips of the forks puts more strain on the forks and changes the leverage of the fork quick attach female socket against the male QA plate on the FEL arms.

Anyhow, it's an interesting discussion.

 

[2manyrocks]

In the course of digging a trench, there are going to be more repeated cycles of stress on the loader arms than a one off attempted lift of something that's too heavy. Might also consider measure where the forces are applied at the length of the digging arm versus the forks if you happen to know those measurements, I don't.

But use your PT425 as you wish. Not doing that to my 1445.

 

[MossRoad]

Sure, it's repeated stress to lift the rears off the ground. I've done it hundreds if not thousands of times. Each time I do it, it's no more stress on the tractor than the last time. That's what I'm getting at.

It's just a teeter totter.

The stresses that vary are when we change the angle or distance with the curl function. That affects everything from the FEL mount points to the point where the implement hits the resistance object. (and of course, side-to-side movements put side loads on the FEL arms, that's a given).

So in regards to the mini-hoe, if you push out or pull in the dipper stick with the dump/curl function on the joystick, or curl or dump the bucket itself, that changes forces. Just lifting doesn't change anything behind the front tires as that's just the fulcrum.

 

[2manyrocks]

$15,900 teeter totter plus delivery. There are no stabilizer arms to transfer the forces of digging to the ground so all the force is on the mounts and the tires and the wheel motor axles.

Take a shovel and pick up a shovel full of loose dirt. Then try sticking that shovel into compacted soil and lifting it. Same shovel.

 

[MossRoad]

...

Take a shovel and pick up a shovel full of loose dirt. Then try sticking that shovel into compacted soil and lifting it. Same shovel.

Take a bucket on the PT and jam it into hard soil. It won't break free and the rear comes up off the ground.

Take a bucket on the PT and jam it into a pile of granulated limestone (like I did hundreds of times at the ball park). It's loose material. The rear of the tractor still comes up because it's too heavy for the tractor to lift, despite it being loose material. Similar with a pile of rocks, bags of cement, etc...

Once you hit that magic point where the tractor won't lift it and the rear wheels come off the ground it doesn't matter if it's 800# or 8000#... it's no additional strain on the machine.

 

[SpringHollow]

I use 2 different mini hoes (they are not Power Trac models) quite a bit. They definitely put a huge amount of stress on things the way I use them when digging through our hard clay and shale. The swinging one can put some sideways stress especially when using it to pull logs sideways out of the woods. I would not recommend doing that a lot. The other can dig I believe 6' down and has a 12" bucket. That is definitely a lot of weight and leverage.

Just a note about using skid steer attachments. I welded a plate to a skid steer adapter so I could use skid steer equipment on my 1850. I am guessing that must weigh 150 lbs. The attachments I have are fairly large and weigh between 800 and 1250 lbs. I doubt the 425 could handle these. They are pushing/exceeding the limits of the 1850.

 

[bel422]

Welcome bel422! A past member “fourteen” was a big fan of reversing many things PT related, the stump grinder being one. He turned the blade around and reversed the hoses so the chips flung forward. I’m not saying to do it! He swore by it.
Kris

I've learned to keep the mounting plate between the bottom of the blade and my face. The plate blocks most of the flying debris. Also, go at the stump not from the top of it, but at, or slightly below, ground level into the side of the stump. Drive slowly forward and oscillate left and right.That keeps most of the debris on the ground. If on a slight hill, point downhill to let gravity pull you into the stump. If on a steeper hill, I find pointing uphill gives me better control, although you use the engine more.

 

[m5040]

There is a lot of strain digging with a backhoe bucket, especially when rocks and tree roots are involved. PT mini hoe design appears to reply on turning the PT to dump material to the side. There are no outriggers on the mini hoe to distribute the force of digging to the ground.

One reason I dont own a 3pt backhoe is I was warned tractor rear ends have been known to break due to the forces involved.

On the PT "mini-hoe", I call excavator (because mine is not mini nor a backhoe) you dig with it by putting the bucket down where you want the hole, adjust the cutting angle and then back up the tractor to cut into the earth. The curl function (uncurl/dump) does not have enough power to pull the bucket through the dirt like normal one-use engineered machines (backhoe or hyd excavator).
No need for stabilizers/outriggers, there is no more stress then any other job where the tires loose traction .
It is a big compromise and hard to get used to. But better then a shovel. And think about how a standard front bucket is designed to push/cut it's way through a pile and how wide is it? 48" 60" ++ ETC. The mini-hoe is from 6-10" wide with teeth so all the same force that is available that pushes the full width bucket into the dirt but now concentrated to a few inches. They dig great, just cumbersome to work the controls cause they operate unlike any other machine I have used. The amount of weight of material in the mini-hoe bucket is insignificant for concern on sideways stresses, it might be 1 cubic foot or less compared to a heaping full loader bucket driving to load a dump truck/trailer.
I see the real problem is with the thumb allowing pic and carry work. The weight will easily be max for the machine and since you are moving about the dynamic forces can spike to extremes.
Other backhoe manufactures (and many other types of machines) have dealt with this for years by adding circuit reliefs. The closed loop with the spike loads now has an escape hatch - exit.
By memory from years ago, for example the system relief would have a relief setting of 2100 psi. The circuit relief was 3000 psi.
The valve themselves are currently $100 or so and you would only need 2 short -4 hoses and 4 fittings (for each circuit you want to protect). Cheap insurance. I intend to do it, maybe this winter. Here is an example Pardon Our Interruption...

Disregard the motor application, The cylinder diagram shown is what is needed.

 

[Tchamp]

Nice list!
Just a note about the stump grinder. Very useful to grind stumps to ground level or lower. Can also dig holes. Quite messy, however, and it fills the front of the 422 with debris. I wear a full clear face mask as you can hurl stones inward. I've also hung a piece of an old tarp from hooks band clamped to the ROPS for more protection.

this is what I did to my stump grinder some old conveyer belt did the trick

 

[bel422]

Whatever works!

 

[Cycledude]

Power Trac is a very interesting machine but seems like almost everyday I’m reading about one that’s broke down somewhere and no parts available

 

[ponytug]

Power Trac is a very interesting machine but seems like almost everyday I’m reading about one that’s broke down somewhere and no parts available

Yes, I would agree with you that they are interesting machines, but the "...almost everyday I'm reading about one that's broke down..." I get an alert every time there is a post here. So, that seems a bit exaggerated to me. I think one downside to forums in general is that happy, satisfied, customers don't regularly login to say "Yup, still working..." I think that one great thing about TBN is the depth of expertise across the forum, and the incredible helpfulness of most folks here, for I am personally very thankful. So, it makes it easy to ask TBN when an issue comes up, because there isn't a "Bob's Power-Tracs" down the road in Wausau that one could phone up to ask. With PTs, one either asks the factory, or TBN, and in my experience both are excellent.

As an owner, I can say that yes, like any tractor, Power-Tracs do have parts break. More or less compared to others that I've operated? Not obviously so compared to the others, at least to me. But that's an N=1 personal opinion, and I've only worked with 8-10 tractors.

I would also say that in my personal experience, the factory has always had parts for me, and has even recommended 3rd party replacements for less. I've never been down for more than ten days. (Once) More frequently, I call the service department with a question or issue, and a replacement part is here before I can clear time to fix it, and we are on the opposite side of the country.

I've owned or operated a selection of tractors over the years (greens, blues, oranges, grey). I liked many of them for what I was doing, e.g. mowing, haying, drilling, plowing, and spraying. Some were exceptional; a Deutz comes to mind.

I will say that I know of no other brand or model of tractor in the world could have done what my PT-1445 has done here. Performance on slopes is phenomenal and the ability to switch up attachments makes it very very versatile.

I'm personally very focused on tractor safety, followed by utility. I've had three friends killed in rollover accidents, all on conventional style tractors, all trying to use them on slopes. One of them in your neck of the woods, and it was the end of the family farm. Kinda made an impression on me.

Horses for courses.

All the best,

Peter

 

[bel422]

All tractors, and all machines of any kind, will eventually break something. This is my personal experience. As my pt422 is my first experience with power-trac, some problems I've recently had were hydraulic leaks from 2 loose ports underneath the variable volume pump. Both just needed to be tightened with an Allen wrench, with some Permatex Green applied after tightening. But the secondary problem was the amount of fluid that leaked everywhere. Can't be good environmentally. I now park the machine on pieces of cardboard that will soak up any leaked oil, or put pieces of cardboard next to the rear wheels where remaining oil from the body flows out.
Other than that, I love that the machine has a low center of gravity, making it somewhat safer on hills. I do use the seatbelt, and you do need to take extra care always when you're sitting on any powerful machine.

 

[muncybob311]

I wish my tub was THAT clean!! The only time I have fluid mess is when changing filters other than when both front wheel motors broke.