Manual vs Hydro Transmissions

[mjncad]

My JD 4200 HST is my first tractor and I am glad I went HST. I do a lot of loader work, and my irregular shaped lot with the HOASS mandated trees requires a lot of direction changes. I can't imagine trying to do close quarters work in reverse and fumbling for all the levers and pedals required of a manual tranny. The infinite speed range makes it easy to tailor the speed to the chore at hand, and working close to the house is not as scary as it would be with a manual.

When I bought Thumper (lawn tractor), I made sure to go with an HST for the same reasons.

Now if you are talking cars and trucks...give me a manual transmission any day over an automatic. My car and truck are both manuals.

 

[Soundguy]

I can't imagine trying to do close quarters work in reverse and fumbling for all the levers and pedals required of a manual tranny. ....Now if you are talking cars and trucks...give me a manual transmission any day over an automatic. My car and truck are both manuals.

Hmm.. how many 'levers and pedals' do you think a gear tractor has compaired to your car / truck? You think there might be 2-3 clutches 5 gear shift levers??.. Aside from a range selector.. which you would probably be leaving in low for close up work.. I'm guessing that leaves you with an accelerator .. a brake.. a gear shift, and a clutch... Sounds ominously similar to your manual car / truck... (grin)

Glad you l ike your HST.

Soundguy

 

[mjarrels]

I have both and for continous all day operation, I'll take the gear tractor over the hydro... put it in gear and ride without having to play with a petal.

mark

 

[JerryG]

About the loss of power due to having an HST...

I have written on this before but feel inclined to repeat myself. Maybe it is just Kubota's SUPERIOR engineering...
B-U-T... My tractor is rated for 39.5 HP at the PTO. Now, if I had bought the more efficient GEARED tranny on the same model tractor I would have had 40 HP at the PTO. OOOOOOH I'm being robbed of 1/2 of a HP!!!

Pat

It's not the PTO hp that is effected the most. It is the drawbar horsepower. That is the reason that manufactures seldom post drawbar hp any more. With a hydro the pull power (drawbar pull) takes a big drop. The PTO goes straight though the unit more or less, the hydro hasn't got much to do with it.

 

[Doc_Bob]

I have both and for continous all day operation, I'll take the gear tractor over the hydro... put it in gear and ride without having to play with a petal.

mark

Mark, I have a NH TN70A 8x8 with power shuttle. I play with the foot throttle all the time. Saves me fuel, wear and tear.
Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

It's not the PTO hp that is effected the most. It is the drawbar horsepower. That is the reason that manufactures seldom post drawbar hp any more. With a hydro the pull power (drawbar pull) takes a big drop. The PTO goes straight though the unit more or less, the hydro hasn't got much to do with it.

what is drawbar power???
Bob

 

[Z-Michigan]

what is drawbar power???
Bob

Drawbar power is basically how much work can be done by the tractor's physical ability to pull something heavy against a resistance. The Nebraska tractor tests (google this) post this data, in addition to PTO hp, for most tractors above compacts. This is highly relevant for plowing, discing, box blading, or other ground engaging work, but not important for mowing, FEL work, etc. Drawbar power is affected not just by engine power but also by tractor weight and traction - a heavy tractor will often provide more drawbar pull with the same engine hp compared to a lighter tractor. Similarly, a 4wd tractor will generally provide more pull than a 2wd tractor of the same weight and engine hp.

 

[_RaT_]

RaT, Doin' fine thanks. Raisin' a dozen black calves, mostly Angus (maybe a touch of Limousin or ???.) Pidling on the house projects. Surviving the ice storm. Gettin' my but kicked trying to download digital video into computer.

Still working on my interior storm shutters. (Sore back, darn things are HEAVY.)

Hope all is going well with yoiu this new year of 2007.

PAT

Glad to see you around. I stop by a few times a week. Did you ever get your box scraper and hydraulic ripper thing straightened out from years ago? Its funny to see the HST gear stuff so frequently. Same thing and mostly the same old players.

 

[JerryG]

Z-Michigan,
That was a pretty good definition, except that I do have one exception to it. The front end loader part. The more power available at the drawbar the more power that is available to push with the front end loader. Basically, drawbar pull the way it works out is a usable number for anything that is pushed or pulled by the tractor. When drawbar pull first came into use there wasn't any loaders. If there had been, I don't know what word they would have came up with for that type of measurement.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Z-Michigan,
That was a pretty good definition, except that I do have one exception to it. The front end loader part. The more power available at the drawbar the more power that is available to push with the front end loader. Basically, drawbar pull the way it works out is a usable number for anything that is pushed or pulled by the tractor. When drawbar pull first came into use there wasn't any loaders. If there had been, I don't know what word they would have came up with for that type of measurement.

Thanks, and good point. I agree to the extent you're digging with the FEL or pushing into something with resistance. If you're pushing into fluffy snow or dry mulch then I think the difference is small, though more drawbar hp is always better.

 

[patrick_g]

Set and forget geared tranny vs the FOOL_WITH_THE_PEDAL_ALL_THE_TIME HST...

My HST has a hold mechanism (poor man's cruise control) that locks the HST postition wherever you want it until you press the brake or the HST pedal and then it releases automatically and if the brake was what caused it to disengage then the tractor stops pronto whether or not you continue to apply the brake.

I fail to see how a geared tranny is superior to that. It seems to me the automatic stop when the HST-"HOLD" is disengaged is a safety feature beyond the geared tranny.

Pat

 

[mjncad]

Hmm.. how many 'levers and pedals' do you think a gear tractor has compaired to your car / truck? You think there might be 2-3 clutches 5 gear shift levers??.. Aside from a range selector.. which you would probably be leaving in low for close up work.. I'm guessing that leaves you with an accelerator .. a brake.. a gear shift, and a clutch... Sounds ominously similar to your manual car / truck... (grin)

Glad you l ike your HST.

Soundguy

The big difference between the tractor and my road vehicles is that the road vehicles are used daily and I avoid reverse unless absolutely necessary. I'm one of those people who park far enough out in the lot that I can leave a parking space by going forward instead of using reverse. Now my tractor has about 420 hours over 5-1/2 years of ownership, so it doesn't get the daily use. I like being able to hop on Bambi and go without regaining the hand-eye coordination because of the infrequent use.

The only time I use the brakes is when I'm setting the parking brake, or if I use the individual wheel brakes to cut a tighter turn, or if I'm building a berm and have a load in the bucket that I'm dumping and I don't want to roll backwards. Otherwise, I like the ability to slow down and come to a stop by just letting up on the pedals.

Now with my road vehicles I like the manual as I feel I have superior control of the car or truck that I don't get with an automatic; especially engine braking control descending steep hills. Automatics drive me nuts in that they always seem to gather speed because engine braking isn't as efficient on an automatic.

The only time I use the cruise control on Bambi is when I'm driving to a neighbor's house; otherwise I find it pretty worthless for most chores on my particular lot. As for cruise control on my cars...I never use it, and I have no idea if they even work on my 11-1/2 year old Accord and 8 year old F-250. I tried cruise control on a rental car one time and I didn't like it.

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm.. I'm not sure I'd -always- want rapid deceleration when tapping a brake. I sometimes.. well.. many times like to use the brakes to help steering. I'm not sure I'd like to fumble with a foot pedal, a brake pedal, and then try to keep the cruise engaged.

Perhaps the other user was refering to a gear setup with a hand and foot throttle.. where you like to.. say.. mow at a set speed. You select your range and gear, and then throttle to pto rpm.. and you are at that set speed. As long as you always use that rpm, and gear combination.. you are always back to that set speed. With a hand throttle set.. yo are free to use steering brakes. If ya need to emergency stop.. the fastest way to do it is by dumping the throttle while in gear and under load.. brakes help too.. but not as much as dumping the throttle. I think that is what the other poster was getting at.

Soundguy

Set and forget geared tranny vs the FOOL_WITH_THE_PEDAL_ALL_THE_TIME HST...

My HST has a hold mechanism (poor man's cruise control) that locks the HST postition wherever you want it until you press the brake or the HST pedal and then it releases automatically and if the brake was what caused it to disengage then the tractor stops pronto whether or not you continue to apply the brake.

I fail to see how a geared tranny is superior to that. It seems to me the automatic stop when the HST-"HOLD" is disengaged is a safety feature beyond the geared tranny.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

Hmm.. sounds strangly familiar to how I use my geared tractors. 'Bout the only time I use the brakes is for turning.. or if I'm roading her and come to a stop light / sign, and I still use the throttle to slow down.. but use the brakes to provide a complete stop, if there's traffic.. or a uh.. california roll if none, to save some wear on the clutch... If I'm in the pasture i use the throttle to slow down, and then clutch... she pretty much stops at that point.. no brakes needed.

Soundguy

The only time I use the brakes is when I'm setting the parking brake, or if I use the individual wheel brakes to cut a tighter turn, or if I'm building a berm and have a load in the bucket that I'm dumping and I don't want to roll backwards. Otherwise, I like the ability to slow down and come to a stop by just letting up on the pedals.

.

 

[_RaT_]

If ya need to emergency stop.. the fastest way to do it is by dumping the throttle while in gear and under load.. brakes help too.. but not as much as dumping the throttle. I think that is what the other poster was getting at.

Soundguy

Hmmm, I have yet to experience that, perhaps your brakes are shot. My brakes will lock up all four tires.

 

[BBB]

I have both. A 2N standard, and a MF-1020 HST. They are both about 20 HP. The 2N will outpull and out power the MF, but if you come to my house your going to find me on the MF. If your going to use it around the house go HST. If your going to farm, go gears.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Perhaps the other user was refering to a gear setup with a hand and foot throttle..

My NH TN70A is a "combo" unit with hand and foot throttle. It is all I have ever used, except for HST. The foot throttle is great for everything except set and forget, like bush hog and plowing.
Bob

 

[Soundguy]

Hmmm, I have yet to experience that, perhaps your brakes are shot. My brakes will lock up all four tires.

I'm not fond of locking up tires, breaking traction and sliding.. chews up the grass something awfull.. plus if on a hard surface.. you now have less control when sliding.

Dumping the throttle pulls you down fast, and the wheels are still turning to help prevent breaking traction. If I need extra stopping power, right as the engine pulls it down, I clutch then break at the point twher ethe forward speed is about to match dumped engine speed.

It makes a diffference when you have 10-12 thousand pounds moving.. I deffinately don't want to slide and break traction!!!

( My brakes are fine... perhaps you are only thinking of a certain size tractor.. and not taking into account larger tractors... )

Soundguy

 

[JerryG]

I guess I don't understand the deal with the brakes, but as far as compact tractors go I have only owned two and they were Masseys. I can and have parked them both on unreal steep places without any concern about the brakes holding or not. They always hold. It looks like there are many compacts out there from the way posters talk, that don't have brakes worth calling brakes. If this isn't right I am sure some one will speak up.

 

[scott_vt]

I guess I don't understand the deal with the brakes, but as far as compact tractors go I have only owned two and they were Masseys. I can and have parked them both on unreal steep places without any concern about the brakes holding or not. They always hold. It looks like there are many compacts out there from the way posters talk, that don't have brakes worth calling brakes. If this isn't right I am sure some one will speak up.

Afternoon Jerry,
My twenty year old Massey 1040 still has the original brakes. They work like a champ. Probablly because I hardly ever use them.

Im in Soundguys camp, when he states that if he needs to stop, he dumps the throttle. I do the same thing especially when I am mowing and never worry about sliding on a steep bank that may be slick caused by wetness. It surely beats sliding IMHO. At times I do use the parking brake, and as extra insurance on hills I lower the FEL. I guess the original ownwer must have done the same thing because there seems to be little wear on those brakes !