Manual vs Hydro Transmissions

[jk96]

jk96 - I didn't mean anything about your skill level

I know Z - no offense taken. Just wanted to point out that type of use is as important as skill level in some situations. I use mine with forks inside my shop quite a bit as well, another situation where the HST is just more ideal for my use. Others who use their tractors differently could definatly get better use out of a gear.

 

[dirtworksequip]

One thing I do beleive is that owning both a geared tractor and hydro. The JD3520 hydro has 9 more hp than the JD870 and I beleive that if I hooked them drawbar to drawbar the geared 870 would the the hands down winner. Have not done it. If I do I'll post the results.

 

[john_bud]

Someone asked about clutch replacement costs and if $1800 was out of whack. It's probably about right for a dealer to do. Single dry clutch with pressure plate and bearings is 250-500. Dual stage dry clutch, PP and bearings is 600-1000. Depending on quality, brand and where purchased. For instance, the clutch disc for my Ford is $85 from the low cost EBAY types. The FNH Heavy Duty disc is almost $200. It is also 2x the thickness and made with a far higher quality material. You get what you pay for is sometimes true. To change the clutch, the tractor has to be split into two pieces - engine half and transmission half. Labor to do that is 8-16 hours depending on tractor model etc. So if you spend $500 on parts and supplies and 10 hours of labor you are pretty quickly up to $1500. So an estimate of $1800 is not out of line.

As far as reliability, there is no significant difference between any type of transmission when used correctly. We all know what happens with a teenager and a stick shift car, some tractors are operated by people that run them the same way. (no, not any of US!) Aggressive use of the clutch and gears can put a lot of shock load into a transmission and drive-line. That means that a gear tractor can be damaged more easily than an HST by enthusiastic or aggressive use. So while by design there is no inherent reliability issue with any type of transmission, a gear tranny can be damaged by abuse easier. (Inexperienced operators often abuse gear transmissions, especially the clutches, unknowingly)

Are gear transmissions cheap to repair? No. Repair costs are dominated by labor. The labor to fix a gear transmission is basically the same as any other. Parts may be a more or less. Dealers want ~$250 for one gear and if you have to replace one, you typically have to replace more. So, I don't see an HST being way more expensive to repair. Maybe a service tech can look up some prices and comment with data?


How long does a clutch last? Depends on what you do with it. If you are doing field work it's like a salesman's car on the highway. There might be a lot of miles or hours, but little wear on the clutch and brakes. If you are doing a lot of tight maneuvering, FEL work or moving heavy loads short distances the clutch may go out at 500-1000 hours. Maybe 1/2 that or 2x depending on the use and skill of the operator. FEL use drives you to feather the clutch to slowly power into a pile of dirt and the heavy load makes you feather it more to get going. Each time you use the clutch is scuffs off friction material. Slipping (feathering) the clutch does that for a longer time, heats it to a higher temperature and wears it faster. If field work is like highway miles, then FEL work with a gear transmission is like a taxi cab in crowded down town traffic. And yes, wet clutches last longer than dry due to heat dissipation to the fluid being much better.

When you look at the total lifetime costs, the higher initial purchase price and very slightly lower fuel economy is offset by the more frequent clutch replacements.

When people talk about "farmers" not using HST, they don't include that those tractors mostly don't have FEL's and they are probably exclusively used for field work. In those applications there is no benefit from HST, in fact the lower PTO hp and higher fuel use are a detriment. And when people talk about the benefits of HST, they don't mention that they have a FEL on it and may use it for applications like tight quarters mowing. They especially don't tell you that the typical operator has limited experience, so the ease of use provided by an HST pretty much outweighs all other factors. For example: the annual extra fuel cost is probably 10-20 bucks for an HST if 100 hours are put on and the fuel use is 5-10% higher.

Best advice is for you to try as many tractors as you can. FEL work, tight quarters operations, attach implements and anything else you can talk your sales person into letting you do. Then pick the one you LIKE the best.

Happy Hunting!

jb

 

[Glowplug]

Incredibly well said jb!! That basically summarizes it all. Really no need for any more posts!

 

[slowrev]

Was it this thread or another one where a guy with a hydro, was told by his dealer that a factory rebuilt tranny was all they could do for him, no local reapir available ?

I can repaie any gear type of tranny, I cannot make the same claim about hydro trannies.

Ben

 

[DK35vince]

I can repaie any gear type of tranny, I cannot make the same claim about hydro trannies.

Thats probably the biggest reason I went with a gear transmission.(shuttle shift).
If I do have a problem sometime down the road I can repair it myself. I can replace my own clutch/pressure plate for around $350 if the need arises.
Hydro trannys are nice and easy to use, but I wouldn't have a clue where to begin if I had a problem or failure of some sort and would be forced to spend big $$$ for the dealer to repair it for me.

 

[radman1]

I have a 1994 JD 5300, replaced clutch at about 3500 hours. Cost by dealer was about $1900. Mostly used as utility tractor some loader work. Was used by landscaper when I bought it at 900 hours. I think loaders are the hardest thing on a clutch. Constantly shifting and clutching with loader and gets tiresome. I also have Case-IH DX29 and JD 3720 both are hydro. For loader work or mowing, hydro wins hands down. For just minor work around the house/farm, again hydro. Hydros can do the grunt work of tilling/pulling but for me that is relatively infrequent purpose for those tractors. I'll take the ease of hydro whenever possible. Used to have Kubota 3710gst. Gst is good if you can't make up your mind and want a little of both worlds.

My preference in the hydro is the twin pedal JD over the tredle style DX29. I use to believe the tredle was just fine, but once you try the twin pedal of the JD, it is better. Less effort, easier to control over rougher ground and I feel has better control for finesse work. JD's motion match and the new Kubota equivalent make hydro's even better.

 

[john_bud]

Was it this thread or another one where a guy with a hydro, was told by his dealer that a factory rebuilt tranny was all they could do for him, no local reapir available ?

I can repaie any gear type of tranny, I cannot make the same claim about hydro trannies.

Ben

Ben,

I do agree --> nothing is cheaper than repairing it yourself. And many of us old time gear heads have torn into enough stuff to not be afraid of spinning gears. However, from the Kubota workshop manual there are 15 pages on the disassembly and servicing of the HST. The gear transmission has 20 pages. It does look like it is simpler to repair the HST. After all it is just a pump hooked to a motor. Ok, it's a little more complex than that, but not much. I would bet that if you have the manual, you could easily rebuild a hydro.

I truely think that any transmission is going to be swapped for a factory rebuilt one if you go thru the dealer. Shop labor rates and the ability to get competent service techs are going to make that the most cost effective solution. Could be wrong....

jb

 

[slowrev]

Ben,

I do agree --> nothing is cheaper than repairing it yourself. And many of us old time gear heads have torn into enough stuff to not be afraid of spinning gears. However, from the Kubota workshop manual there are 15 pages on the disassembly and servicing of the HST. The gear transmission has 20 pages. It does look like it is simpler to repair the HST. After all it is just a pump hooked to a motor. Ok, it's a little more complex than that, but not much. I would bet that if you have the manual, you could easily rebuild a hydro.

I truely think that any transmission is going to be swapped for a factory rebuilt one if you go thru the dealer. Shop labor rates and the ability to get competent service techs are going to make that the most cost effective solution. Could be wrong....

jb

JB, first off don't get me wrong, hydros are nice especially for loader work.
And are a good choice for those who will be trading in their tractor on a new one in a few years. Myself, I have trouble letting go of tractors and just keep them
My concern is mainly the aluminium hydro cases that many/most of them are made of. How do you repair a worn out housing ?
Also rubber seals wear, get hard/shrink and require replacement eventually in any hydro. a gear tranny oinly has seals to keep the oil in
I may wind up with a hydro someday, but my main idea with tractors is to keep them simple. No computers and as little Aluminum and plastic as possible.
Ben

 

[Oleozz]

When I was discussing transmissions with the local JD dealer he claimed that just about all the compacts he was selling had hydros in them. I asked him about ground engaging equipment and he said they had no problems with the hydros no matter what they were used for. I ended up getting a tractor with a shuttle shift and a dry single plate clutch but if the hydro option would have been available in the Kiotis at that time it would have been my choice.

 

[john_bud]

JB, first off don't get me wrong, hydros are nice especially for loader work.
And are a good choice for those who will be trading in their tractor on a new one in a few years. Myself, I have trouble letting go of tractors and just keep them
My concern is mainly the aluminium hydro cases that many/most of them are made of. How do you repair a worn out housing ?
Also rubber seals wear, get hard/shrink and require replacement eventually in any hydro. a gear tranny oinly has seals to keep the oil in
I may wind up with a hydro someday, but my main idea with tractors is to keep them simple. No computers and as little Aluminum and plastic as possible.
Ben

Ben,

I have a hst trans equipped tractor and love it. I also have a straight gear tractor with no syncro's. I love it too. Different machines with different purposes.

But on repairing the hydro, the housing isn't part of the pump. It just, well houses the working parts. There isn't any wear surface on the aluminum housing, so your worry isn't well founded (at least for the Kubota HST's shown in my book). If you are familiar with hydraulic piston pumps, you know what that looks like. That is the main variable displacement pump and motor that is the heart of the HST. (See attachments 1333 and 1335 from the Kubota WSM)

There is a charge pump that supplies the variable displacement pump. (attachment 1334) It uses a gear/rotor like an oil pump for an engine. Very reliable. The steel gerotor assembly can be replaced or the housing it is in. (I don't know if that is iron or aluminum. It is probably steel as the torque spec is 75-90 ft-lb. I do know that an aluminum housing oil pump in a car or truck engine can last 2-300,000 miles, so that's not a big concern if it is Al).

The seals are o-rings, a couple of press in seals and flat gaskets. They are not part of the pump / motor at all. The seals in a HST are only to keep the fluid in -> just like a gear transmission.

I'm not saying that gear transmissions are bad, no not at all. Just pointing out that HST's are not any more difficult to repair than anything else. In fact, they are probably easier. Honestly, it looks like it would take 1/3 the time to rebuild that a gear trans would and it doesn't take a press to get the gears off the shafts.

On your comment on computers and plastic. I agree to a point. Todays automotive computers have more computing power than a 1970's mainframe. By far. They are also more reliable by several orders of magnitude. The engines they control produce 2-4 times the power across a broader range while emitting less than 1% of the noxious gasses all while using 1/2 the fuel. So what point do I agree on? I don't like plastic fenders or hoods!!

jb

 

[Soundguy]

In a previous post you said that a gear tranny and an HST are probably similar in price to repair.

My thinking was more in 'replaced' than repaired. As many of us know.. the labor is what eats you up.. and in some cases it is cheaper to buy a used/working, or remanned trans 'assembly' than to go thru one that has been 'shelled'. In that case.. I think a 'crate' gear trans would be cheaper than a HYDRO... just my opinion..

I'm in agreement with the others.. I can slide gears around on rails and braze up shifter balls and play with forks.. though i'm afraid I might be lost peering under the top cover of a hydro unit.. etc..

Soundguy

Ben,

I do agree --> nothing is cheaper than repairing it yourself. And many of us old time gear heads have torn into enough stuff to not be afraid of spinning gears. However, from the Kubota workshop manual there are 15 pages on the disassembly and servicing of the HST. The gear transmission has 20 pages. It does look like it is simpler to repair the HST. After all it is just a pump hooked to a motor. Ok, it's a little more complex than that, but not much. I would bet that if you have the manual, you could easily rebuild a hydro.

I truely think that any transmission is going to be swapped for a factory rebuilt one if you go thru the dealer. Shop labor rates and the ability to get competent service techs are going to make that the most cost effective solution. Could be wrong....

jb

 

[SOS]

Wow... this is a lot to take in and all great information.

What I will be doing:

• A little mowing with no obstical (about 5 acres)
• A lot of bruch and downed tree moving (about 8 acres) I'm planning on a grapple too
• Clearing some area for building a small barn & dog kennel
• Path maintenance -- wide dirt paths with no sharp turns
• Post hole drilling -- for a large dog kennel (great danes)
• A lot of little jobs moving dirt and gravel
• a lot of ditch work.

 

[johnk]

SOS,

Sit on them and drive em. Buy what feels good. You'll probably enjoy it so much you'll be spending way too much time on it....

 

[Z-Michigan]

To me your proposed work is crying out for HST - basically everything except the mowing of 5 acres with no obstacles. I've been told that drilling post holes is much easier with HST because you can creep a few inches to keep the hole vertical as the auger goes lower.

 

[shvl73]

A lot of hydros have cruise control, so mowing open areas is real easy. As it would be with a gear tranny.

 

[john_bud]

In a previous post you said that a gear tranny and an HST are probably similar in price to repair.

My thinking was more in 'replaced' than repaired. As many of us know.. the labor is what eats you up.. and in some cases it is cheaper to buy a used/working, or remanned trans 'assembly' than to go thru one that has been 'shelled'. In that case.. I think a 'crate' gear trans would be cheaper than a HYDRO... just my opinion..

I'm in agreement with the others.. I can slide gears around on rails and braze up shifter balls and play with forks.. though i'm afraid I might be lost peering under the top cover of a hydro unit.. etc..

Soundguy

Yeah, It would be great if a service person could get on and tell us what the reman gear, GST and HST units cost.

I have done a bit of looking for parts and transmissions for the old fords 601, 801, early 2000 and early 4000. From Alexander's web site these are the remain prices for;

4 speed $1595 +750 core
5 speed $2195 + 750 core (single clutch)
5 speed $ 2495 + 750 core (Double clutch)

I'm sure the transmissions are great, but at those prices (plus shipping), I chose to do my own! That and my core was worth about $1.12....

jb

 

[Limecuda]

I have driven/borrowed my dad's and granddad's geared tractors and never really had much of a problem. You condition yourself to clutch, shift, etc. I purchased a 8.5 acres tract in June and instantly began reading up on the different brands etc. I was extremely interested in a hst but I also wondered about the different possible hst issues and whether it was worth the extra price. When I bought my first tractor in November I test drove the hst versus the geared. It is a very easy tractor to drive. My wife who has never driven a tractor was instantly able to "play". Hst is easy to manuver and does great around trees etc and doing box blade and fel work.

 

[SOS]

Well, this was very interesting and informative and a little fun. I also consulted with my dad (a manual trans tractor owner for 30 plus years) and my financial advisor (wife) and I'm going with the manual trans. primarily for price. In 20 years when I'm real old, I'll upgrade to a Hydro or whatever they have then.

THANKS ALL.

 

[john_bud]

I'm going with the manual trans. primarily for price. In 20 years when I'm real old, I'll upgrade to a Hydro or whatever they have then.

Ouch! That one really zinged me!!

jb