M59 hydraulics got slow and weak.

[Hersheyfarm]

This is a time line, is it understandable? Not good at documenting well.

Kubota m59

11/20/10 Purchased from central equipment

6/17/11 on jobsite and buckets would barely lift. 146hr on the clock. took to central equipment (200 mile round trip) for issue. Came home to change fluid and filters as tech said he thought it was plugged filter. Cost about $350 for fluid/materials. No cure.

6/20 took back to central equipment (200 mile round trip). They said 2 weeks before they could even look at it.

6/21 called around looking for better dealer. Found baxla tractor. picked it up and brought it home (200 mile round trip) for baxla to send tech to look at it.

6/22 baxla showed up, need to take to shop.

6/23 took to baxla. (100 mile round trip)


7/7 147hr Picked up from baxla after they replaced both pumps (100 mile round trip) Sent me home with 6 filters. Need to change the 3 filters at 25hr, and again at 50 hr. they charged me $100 for not buying machine there.

Out of commission 22 days at this point.

Changed all filters/fluid 8-17-11 at 175hr. I decided to put udt2 in it. $235

Changed hydro filters 11/11/11 at 195hr lost 5 gallon ($94)

1/11/12 at 217hr its back at baxla(100 mile round trip) for Very weak and slow hydraulics. Couple of days before they can get to it.

At this point it's out of commission 24 days, 800 miles hauling, and roughly $779 out of pocket not including hauling. I did take on the changing of filters, and fluids just to try and speed things up. The machine is needed for me and my employees to work. This machine is responsible for 1/3 of our jobs.

Hydro x2 $44 ($88)
Tranny $64
5 gallon Fluid $94
12.5 gallon capacity ($235)

 

[rScotty]

Our lemon laws exclude equipment and is for cars/trucks basically.

Well, come to think of it.... I don't know how our lemon laws relate to equipment as opposed to car/trucks. Might be similar.

I have wondered about sharing fluid with hydraulic attachments....particularly with rental equipment, and wonder how much that dilutes the SUDT in the M59. If a person is using a lot of rental equipment it might be an argument for simply using the most popular hydraulic oil locally. Around here it seems to be mostly New Holland fluid.
Still, the M59 ought to be immune to those changes.
rScotty

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I never liked borrowing attachments. Never know what your introducing into your sump. Water.

 

[BandDcabinet]

I understand borrowing might be an issue.

If you own tractors from several mfg and they all insist on their fluid it is an unrealistic situation. As I have pointed out in several various posts. We maintain all of our machines and attachments. Do I need seperate attachments for our Masseys, Kubotas, Ford and Deere 310 on the farm???? I can't buy a different grapple for each. If this is what any mfg expects I think it is unrealistic.

We share chippers, grapples, mowers, rear blades, drags etc. between all machines. Most mfgs recommend their hydro oil.

No problems to date.

I'll try to remember to ck hours tomorrow. We service the equipment the last Sat of the month. Someone else did the last service.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Got it back. They said they found a bad relief valve. Will update after I have some time on it.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Used it pretty hard for 2 hr. after one hour it is back to being slow and weak. Started off a lot better after relief valve was replaced but soon started losing power. Called dealer and I have got kubota customer service involved on previous trip, so I called them again and they are communicating with dealer as the dealer has no clue what's wrong. They put it on a machine this last time and found it lost power quick. The relief valve seemed to help it but after it heated up it just goes to crap. I told service guy I have to have it again at the beginning of this week. He said use it. If it gets worse so be it. I wish kubota would pay them to come and get it, I know they don't cover hauling under warranty but this is extraordinary. Dealer is 100 miles round trip, but my business is very busy right now and I work an hour away in opposite direction.

 

[ManAtArms]

Is there a dealer that will rent you an M59 so you can use it and compare (and get back to making $ with it?). Up here there are 3 dealers that rent them out...maybe you could see if you can reproduce the issues?

Manatarms

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Is there a dealer that will rent you an M59 so you can use it and compare (and get back to making $ with it?). Up here there are 3 dealers that rent them out...maybe you could see if you can reproduce the issues?

Manatarms

Reproduce? Nobody here rents them. I have to use it the next 2 days. The first time the pumps went I could barely lift the front bucket empty, I don't want to reproduce that on a rental. My pumps are going again. Dealer said to use it til it won't work no more and keep calling customer service. Yup, thats were I am at. I'll be renting my buddy's cx next week.

 

[mike69440]

The two reasons I would not consider buying Kubota again are:

1. Part prices. Kubota is just too greedy.

2. Warrantee, Too often Kubota just does not step up in behalf of their customer.

Imagine the good faith Kubota would get just replacing the entire machine.
Kubota could then do some real failure analysis to improve their product.
Once Kubota fixes it they could donate the returned machine to a worthy organization (Like Me!).
Advertise this and self promote what a great company they are, telling the whole story truthfully, and write tit off to advertising. Everybody wins.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

The two reasons I would not consider buying Kubota again are:

1. Part prices. Kubota is just too greedy.

2. Warrantee, Too often Kubota just does not step up in behalf of their customer.

Imagine the good faith Kubota would get just replacing the entire machine.
Kubota could then do some real failure analysis to improve their product.
Once Kubota fixes it they could donate the returned machine to a worthy organization (Like Me!).
Advertise this and self promote what a great company they are, telling the whole story truthfully, and write tit off to advertising. Everybody wins.

The big problem is this machine is in a class all it's own. Much bigger than a jd110 and a lot smaller than a full size tlb. That being said I think their flow rate vs cooling for this machine is way off. I think I will have to eventually go with a full size machine again and transportation will be an issue once again. I'm thinking an f450 instead of the f250, my problem is I need to finally get my cdl.

 

[BandDcabinet]

I posted this in the wrong thread. Saw your name and responded without looking at the thread.

Hersheyfarms... I don't dig at 2700 rpms more like 1800 to 2000. Think I already posted that. I don't have 650 hours. No hydraulic problems. I run the hydraulic feed chipper at 2500 for hours at a time. Sorry to hear of your troubles. If you think oil temperature is a problem why not monitor the oil temperature. What in the oil pump is failing? I'll take a look at the pump information in the Kubota hydraulic shop manual I have. Anyone know the type of pump? gear pump? Are the 3 pt hyd control levers pushed completely into the correct position? If we step back this is a rather straight forward system. Perhaps looking at the pump(s) is not the problem but the result. What else in the system loop might cause excessive pressure on the pump? Valve elsewhere in the loop... front aux with one on the electric select buttons stuck without anything attached....

I guess my thought is to look thru the entire system. Pump or relief valve may be the result not the problem.

Have you ever had the BH off the machine? What is the pressure in the BH loops with all BH valves closed? Is there a problem in the return line back to the sump? Factory assembled or Dealer assembled? Correct quick disconnects installed? Do you have rear remotes installed? If they are not closed or properly installed you will loose power to the BH and loader.

I have not had the occasion to need to run the BH at 2700rpm. Trenching, pulling stumps, digging pits in clay.... always had plenty of power and speed.

I'll scan the hydraulic circuits from the hyd shop manual and PM them to you if you want them.

 

[curtisfarmer]

Hersheyfarm, well that really sucks. Too bad this happened to you, I work with my machines too. The M59 is a solid machine, hopefully this is just a fluke problem and they get you back in action ASAP! I have 2 L48s and they started my business and continue to be the workhorses they were meant to be. I think this is the 1st bad expereince I have heard of for a M59, and although that does you no good, have faith in Kubota products. Clearly better than a JD110 or the others. BTW, I pull mine with a 450....and love it.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Hersheyfarm, well that really sucks. Too bad this happened to you, I work with my machines too. The M59 is a solid machine, hopefully this is just a fluke problem and they get you back in action ASAP! I have 2 L48s and they started my business and continue to be the workhorses they were meant to be. I think this is the 1st bad expereince I have heard of for a M59, and although that does you no good, have faith in Kubota products. Clearly better than a JD110 or the others. BTW, I pull mine with a 450....and love it.

If I go to a f450 I will get another full size tlb. I agree this m59 is the perfect size.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I posted this in the wrong thread. Saw your name and responded without looking at the thread.

Hersheyfarms... I don't dig at 2700 rpms more like 1800 to 2000. Think I already posted that. I don't have 650 hours. No hydraulic problems. I run the hydraulic feed chipper at 2500 for hours at a time. Sorry to hear of your troubles. If you think oil temperature is a problem why not monitor the oil temperature. What in the oil pump is failing? I'll take a look at the pump information in the Kubota hydraulic shop manual I have. Anyone know the type of pump? gear pump? Are the 3 pt hyd control levers pushed completely into the correct position? If we step back this is a rather straight forward system. Perhaps looking at the pump(s) is not the problem but the result. What else in the system loop might cause excessive pressure on the pump? Valve elsewhere in the loop... front aux with one on the electric select buttons stuck without anything attached....

I guess my thought is to look thru the entire system. Pump or relief valve may be the result not the problem.

Have you ever had the BH off the machine? What is the pressure in the BH loops with all BH valves closed? Is there a problem in the return line back to the sump? Factory assembled or Dealer assembled? Correct quick disconnects installed? Do you have rear remotes installed? If they are not closed or properly installed you will loose power to the BH and loader.

I have not had the occasion to need to run the BH at 2700rpm. Trenching, pulling stumps, digging pits in clay.... always had plenty of power and speed.

I'll scan the hydraulic circuits from the hyd shop manual and PM them to you if you want them.

Today I only dug a little but looked at everything. Basically I have narrowed down to the swing booms cylinders.They are low in power and if I quickly go left or right the boom will move in slow motion with the lever fully depressed. I can let off a little then go full on lever and goes fast. It's like something sticks open and it only goes half speed/power. My problems happen when running machine for a good length of time and hydraulic are hot, then all power goes out. It's like digging in slow motion.

 

[ManAtArms]

Reproduce? Nobody here rents them. I have to use it the next 2 days. The first time the pumps went I could barely lift the front bucket empty, I don't want to reproduce that on a rental. My pumps are going again. Dealer said to use it til it won't work no more and keep calling customer service. Yup, thats were I am at. I'll be renting my buddy's cx next week.

I'm not saying you WANT to reproduce the issue, I'm just saying IF you're somehow pushing the machine to the limits and you can get that to happen with another M59 then it will validate your theory that the cooling system may be undersized for the flow.

It sounds to me like the dealer isn't handling your problem aggressively enough. It's not an innexpensive tractor and they should be calling Kubota to go to bat for you and fix it.

 

[rScotty]

Today I only dug a little but looked at everything. Basically I have narrowed down to the swing booms cylinders.They are low in power and if I quickly go left or right the boom will move in slow motion with the lever fully depressed. I can let off a little then go full on lever and goes fast. It's like something sticks open and it only goes half speed/power. My problems happen when running machine for a good length of time and hydraulic are hot, then all power goes out. It's like digging in slow motion.

I consider my dealer to be friend and try to relate to them that way. But friends sometimes need a jump start in getting things done. By now we have pretty good evidence that other M59s don't have the same problem. You've done more than your part, documented it all, and it puzzles me why the hydraulic problem should be on your shoulders and not the manufacturer's. Frankly, it doesn't sound like it should be all that hard to diagnose and fix. Dealers have resources; sometimes they need motivation.

If it were mine I'd give the dealer a deadline and tell him that on that date I was going to switch over to "mad dog" mode. MD mode involves lawyers, business bureaus, claims courts, newspapers, and whatever local politicians might be willing to listen. Maybe offer to swap them some backhoe work.
rScotty

 

[Mac in PA]

Hersheyfarm,

WOW, you have quite a large thread going here! It took some time to read through it but from what I gathered the problem occurs at operating temperature and affects all the hydraulics.

If this is the case, I would be looking at the main relief valve, probably sticking open when the valve parts warm up.

Remove the spool from the main relief valve and polish it with 600 grit paper. This could take some time since most hydraulic systems (at least the ones I've worked on) use hard chrome on valve spools. The spool bore should be polished also.

After polishing, clean the spool and valve body real good. Don't want any contamination in there.

Reassemble and check relief pressure and set to specs.

Mac

 

[Hersheyfarm]

I talked to a closer dealer, and will be giving them a shot. I told them everything so I didn't blindside them. This will be last chance and then will demand a replacement.

 

[Chuck K.]

I talked to a closer dealer, and will be giving them a shot. I told them everything so I didn't blindside them. This will be last chance and then will demand a replacement.

Any updates?

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Any updates?

Yes. Sorry to the thread.

I used same dealer. They changed more releif valves, put gauges on and adjusted adjustable releif valves to maximum pressure. Bottom line, it runs and works good but this little machine suffers from heat. I have not used it much for my business because I have gotten very busy and started sub contracting the digging. So no long digs with it since last dealer trip. I just use it for mixing feed/mineral in front bucket for cows. It's perfect for that. I think I will go back to full size backhoe for work.