Looking for input on trailer choices

[Diamondpilot]

Looks bolted on to me.

Chris

Here are a few aftermarket hitches that are more stout.

Trailer Hitch for 2012 Toyota Tundra | etrailer.com

Chris

 

[s219]

Yeah, that is simply a factory hitch on the Tundra, and not much different than any other bolt-on hitch.

 

[meburdick]

Removing the factory hitch also removes the bumper mount (the mount is welded to the hitch) and changes the integrity of the frame (hence the "Integrated" statement from Toyota).

 

[joshuabardwell]

Looks like it's time for you to take a trip to the local Toyota dealer to see it in person, then. This is NOT a bolt-on hitch. Here's pages 7 and 8 from the Toyota eBrochure for 2012 (which is just about identical to the information published for 2011, and my truck is a 2011). This is the second generation Tundra and has been in production since 2007, so the design has been around for a number of years.

View attachment 272273View attachment 272274

It says right there, "Using a dozen high-strength bolts."

That being said, it does look like the hitch has been designed in such a way as to have a relatively high tongue weight.

 

[joshuabardwell]

You could replace the receiver. My 97 Ram 2500 didn't even have a rating stamp/sticker on the factory receiver anymore when I got it, and I could not determine its rating, so I replaced it with a Curt 15K / 1500 TW. I think it cost around $200 or $250 and it did take me and a buddy most of an afternoon to install it, but mostly due to some aftermarket exhaust mounts, I had to figure out what to do.

I considered that, but I ended up buying a WD system instead. I figure that being able to even out the weight distribution front to back is its own benefit, and I'm not 100% convinced that hitches that claim to have a higher tongue weight are to be believed. Yeah, I know... the specs are what the specs are, but they're held on with the same size bolts, right? And they're bolted to the same frame members, right? So how can they have a higher rated tongue weight?!

Anyway, the one annoying thing about the WD system is that, in order to get my trailer to ride level, I have to set it low enough that the torsion bars scrape sometimes. Ugh. But I still think it's better than taking the factory hitch off my truck and putting a different one on. Maybe I'll change my mind some day.

Jack stands and zip ties. Got it. I'll remember that.

 

[meburdick]

It says right there, "Using a dozen high-strength bolts."

That being said, it does look like the hitch has been designed in such a way as to have a relatively high tongue weight.

Agreed... But look at the tubular portion that inserts THROUGH the frame rails. There's definitely some torsion control going on there, and as I stated in a different post, the mount for the rear bumper is welded to that cross member. If you unbolt the hitch, there' nothing left to mount the bumper to. I would have to buy the corresponding piece from Toyota that they install in the trucks that do not come with the factory hitch.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The bumper and hitch integration is a poor design in my opinion. Toyota is smarter than that. Just look at GM trucks, they have been doing it for years and it does not work out well. GM hitches leave a lot to be desired also and most serious about towing upgrade the hitch right away.

No brand is perfect. I broke the factory hitch that was rated at 6,000# and 600# TW/12,000# WD and 1,200# TW on my brand new F-250 diesel back in Oct 2004. I had it overload and I knew it but I never would have guessed it would have broken. I upgraded it to a Reese Titan rated at 16,000# and have overloaded it a time or two with no issues.

Chris

 

[meburdick]

I agree that the design doesn't seem optimal. However, given that they are "re-using" a portion of the frame to stiffen the hitch, and in doing so they are providing a reasonably high towing capacity, I don't generally take issue with it.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I agree that the design doesn't seem optimal. However, given that they are "re-using" a portion of the frame to stiffen the hitch, and in doing so they are providing a reasonably high towing capacity, I don't generally take issue with it.

I'd agree. I wouldn't complain about my factory hitch if it would do 10k GTW / 1k TW without a WD system. I'd just tow and be done with.

 

[meburdick]

I'd agree. I wouldn't complain about my factory hitch if it would do 10k GTW / 1k TW without a WD system. I'd just tow and be done with.

That's the part that's still in question, though. From what I understand, the problem with tongue weight is not when "at rest". Instead, it's when you're moving. Actually, when you're trying to STOP moving...

During braking, the hitch part of the trailer can "dive", placing significant additional tongue weight on the tow vehicle. This, in turn, increases weight on the rear axle and decreases weight on the front axle. Enough shift in weight distribution and the situation can get dangerous.

From conversations I've had with the trailer dealer (who also trailers his Deere 4xxx around), I'm not likely to have any significant issue for a number of reasons:

- I'm going to be trailering about 4500 pounds of cargo on a 2700 pound trailer. I won't be at or even near the max rating for the trailer or the truck.
- I have the ability to take some of the tongue weight off simply by backing the tractor up a little on the trailer and shifting the weight a little more toward / over the rear axle of the trailer.
- I will not be towing far or traveling at any significant rates of speed.

Being smart about how I load, tie down, and drive, I should never have any issue with tongue weight for my vehicle. Additionally, I've had 2+ yard of mulch in my bed, fully compressing the rear springs (meaning about 1200-1300 pounds in the bed), and the truck never felt like it was "squatting" in the rear. I realize that having more weight applied *behind* the axle is worse than what I had *over* the axle, but I don't believe I will find myself in that situation.

He told me that I could certainly add a WDH at any time if I felt like I needed it there. And, he said I should consider one if I will ever need to trailer for any significant distance.

 

[joshuabardwell]

That's the part that's still in question, though. From what I understand, the problem with tongue weight is not when "at rest". Instead, it's when you're moving. Actually, when you're trying to STOP moving...

I'm familiar with that argument. I'd be kind of surprised if Toyota went to such trouble to advertise its 10k tow rating only to put an asterisk on it and say "with a WD system." And if the truck is rated to tow 10k without a WD, then it should be good to go, you would think, trailer dive or not.

- I have the ability to take some of the tongue weight off simply by backing the tractor up a little on the trailer and shifting the weight a little more toward / over the rear axle of the trailer.

You sound like you know what you're doing, but I would be very careful about that one. Once you get lower than about 10% tongue weight, things can get wobbly. Be careful.

my bed, fully compressing the rear springs (meaning about 1200-1300 pounds in the bed), and the truck never felt like it was "squatting" in the rear. I realize that having more weight applied *behind* the axle is worse than what I had *over* the axle, but I don't believe I will find myself in that situation.

Right. Bear in mind that weight in the bed applies partially to the front axle. Weight on the hitch applies entirely to the rear axle. If you're really curious, you can just get a tape measure out and measure from the ground to the top of the wheel arch with the truck unloaded, and then in various loaded conditions, to quantify the amount of squat you've got.

 

[meburdick]

I'm familiar with that argument. I'd be kind of surprised if Toyota went to such trouble to advertise its 10k tow rating only to put an asterisk on it and say "with a WD system." And if the truck is rated to tow 10k without a WD, then it should be good to go, you would think, trailer dive or not.

I believe Ford is one vendor that does exactly this. I would not be surprised if Toyota did the same. I'm still looking for a documented maximum tongue weight rating... That will give me a much better idea as to whether their ratings were based on using a WDH or not.

You sound like you know what you're doing, but I would be very careful about that one. Once you get lower than about 10% tongue weight, things can get wobbly. Be careful.

I'm new to trailering heavy loads / long trailers. But, I'm fairly mechanically inclined, I do a lot of reading about what others are doing, and I ask a lot of questions when something doesn't make sense to me. I know that too little tongue weight is just as bad as too much, although for different reasons. I'm planning to load up and short haul around the neighborhood to set up the brake controller as well as get a feel for towing that much weight.

Right. Bear in mind that weight in the bed applies partially to the front axle. Weight on the hitch applies entirely to the rear axle. If you're really curious, you can just get a tape measure out and measure from the ground to the top of the wheel arch with the truck unloaded, and then in various loaded conditions, to quantify the amount of squat you've got.

I've been thinking about the measuring part. Using known quantities of weight at the back of the bed and measuring will give me a pretty good idea of "how much tongue weight makes it squat a certain amount". It isn't perfect because the length of the moment arms (the amount of leverage) for the weight will not be exactly the same as on the tongue, so I'll have to do some math to get the numbers that would be associated with having weight on the tongue. I'd pile it onto the tailgate, but Toyota specifically tells you the gate isn't rated to handle over a few hundred pounds.

 

[Diamondpilot]

All manufactures use the it can tow this when properly equipped approach. For example my F-350 is rated at about 18,000# but thats GN/5th wheel. For bumper pull its rated at 12,000# towing or 15,000# WD.

Chris