Logsplitter 2.0

[arrow]

Lo and behold in my email inbox this morning there was an email from HF with a Super Coupon for the 6.5 hp Predator engine for $99.99 (regularly $119.99)

Called the local store and they have the hemi version of the engine (item no. 60363) in stock, which is supposedly better than the non-hemi.

So I think the die is cast as far as the re-power goes.

Also called my steel supplier back on the pricing of the 1" x 3" bar stock - was $30 for 2' ... and $25 for 1' ... lol.

They will have 2' cut and ready tomorrow morning.

Now to go check that unloader valve ...

I had/have one of the old styles that after it hydrolocked, I tore apart just to see how it was made. It's actually not badly made at all. Of course the only thing one could not tell about is the quality of the steel by just looking at it. Steel quality in China has always been suspect but many have had some pretty good success with this engine. I bought a Robin/Subaru as a replacement. At any rate, always shut off the fuel petcock after use no matter what you end up with.

 

[rswyan]

I've split some that was more difficult and twisted, and maybe that's the norm?

No idea ... my only real experience with it is what I have now ... have read it can be difficult to split though.

It was dropped off by the tree service company the kid next door works for. Couple of huge trees they took down ... largest rounds are over 48" IIRC.

I only split it if it's down or needs to be taken down, like some of the other softer woods. Just enough to keep a good mix going.

I don't have any of it growing here on our property ... just wood that I was given that I can use for firewood. It's free, so as long as it will burn and produce heat, I'm happy to get it.

 

[rswyan]

I had/have one of the old styles that after it hydrolocked, I tore apart just to see how it was made. It's actually not badly made at all. Of course the only thing one could not tell about is the quality of the steel by just looking at it. Steel quality in China has always been suspect but many have had some pretty good success with this engine.

Good to know.

From what I've read, they appear to be pretty decent engines ... but like anything you can get a bad one here and there.

I bought a Robin/Subaru as a replacement.

I may tear the Briggs apart this winter and see if I can figure out what's going with it. Never hurts to have a spare.

At any rate, always shut off the fuel petcock after use no matter what you end up with.

Yeah ... I used to be pretty bad about that ... I've gotten a lot better about it over the last few years ... after having to work on equipment rather than just use it.

 

[rswyan]

I burn a lot of both sycamore and tulip poplar outside just to get rid of it...even though some of the logs are 18"-20" I don't split it...just burn it with the pine ... There is a noticeable difference between the two depending on how cured they are ...

In what way ?

I've always used poplar for kindling as it splits so easily and lights quick if dry...it does burn faster than sycamore if they are close to the same moisture content...

I've got quite a bit here that we took down to clear the old garden area. Might be big-tooth aspen/white poplar.

Normally, I wouldn't mess with it, because it rots so fast that anything that's fallen of it's own accord is usually so punked out that it's worthless as fuel. But I figured that since we felled these I'd go ahead and give it a try after letting them season.

I have a large amount of sycamore logs I've only spared from the fire because I may be buying an interest in a band mill...but am considering splitting a bunch of it strictly for tinder size cord wood...

Supposedly it lights pretty easily when well-seasoned.

The very few rounds I have run through a splitter was more like maple...it feels like cheating splitting poplar or (clear) red oak with a splitter...

Or ash ...

I know this thread is about a hydraulic splitter but there's something about splitting clear red oak etc. by hand...it is so much less tiresome etc...when the round absorbs all the energy of the blow (no feedback through the handle) and every blow is effective ...

Had to split a bunch of green shagbark hickory by hand a couple of years ago when the gas furnace went out ... it was like trying to split steel ... my right elbow is only now starting to recover and get to a point where I can beat on stuff with a hammer/sledge and have no pain.

This is a great thread...I am getting ready to order hoses and fittings for the splitter/lift I built last year...some may remember the issue I had trying to get a two spool valve to work off a dedicated Ditch Witch auxiliary circuit...the need for wood elapsed and I never really got around to completing the project...will resurrect or start a new thread...it is also my 2.0 version...

Post a link to it here if ya think about it ... :thumbsup:

 

[rswyan]

Added a thinner knife edge on the 4-way wedge yesterday to see if that helps getting it to piece the rounds a little better.

Used a piece of 5/16" plate about 1 1/2" wide ... which leaves an opening of just under 23 1/2" inches between the 4-way and the push block:

 

[rswyan]

Also got the attachment bracket for the base end of the hydraulic cylinder for the log lift cut out and drilled. Made it @ 45 degrees, thinking that there would more weld length to secure it to the beam.

Still need to put some bevels on it before I weld it on:

This will relocate the base end attachment point down, and in, approximately 3 1/2 inches, and will give the log lift cylinder an initial angle of better than 20 degrees.

The bracket for the rod of the cylinder is also being located a little lower and further out on the log lift.

 

[rswyan]

FYI, I have a splitter with a 5" cyl and 7hp Briggs and 13 gpm pump. It's a good match powerwise: never stalls though it does get on the governor some. Deadly slow for my taste but strong.
Jim

It took a while for this to really sink in ...

Assuming a 2500 max psi system and a 5" cylinder, you would be generating 49,087 lbs of force ... whereas with my 4" cylinder I'd only be generating 31,416 lbs of force.

Quite a difference ... your 7 hp Briggs probably doesn't have to work near as hard, given the difference in cylinder sizes.

I'm kinda kicking myself for jumping so quickly on that 6.5 HP Predator engine ... even though it was a good price, the day after I picked it up and installed it, I got 20% and 25% off coupons for Harbor Freight on my phone.

I could have gotten the 8 hp Predator for about $180 ...

Not quite double what the 6.5 cost, but still a pretty good deal ...

Would have had to change out the one half of the Lovejoy coupling ($3) and and drill a couple more holes for the engine mount (and the latter might have involved having to install a new mounting plate)

I'm sure there will be more opportunities to pick up a larger engine at a right price ... so I can still do it ... if I find that this engine won't cut it.

 

[/pine]

One thing about the Predator engines is...most high performance Honda parts will fit them...
By just changing the carb. jets and the muffler (header) you can increase the HP...other mods will increase it even more...some guys have dyno tested the hemi-6.5 model at twice and three time the stated 6.5 HP...after the modifications...

FWIW...some good info on mods of all types for the Predators can be found here:

Honda / Clone / Predator

 

[LD1]

It took a while for this to really sink in ...

Assuming a 2500 max psi system and a 5" cylinder, you would be generating 49,087 lbs of force ... whereas with my 4" cylinder I'd only be generating 31,416 lbs of force.

Quite a difference ... your 7 hp Briggs probably doesn't have to work near as hard, given the difference in cylinder sizes.

Not really true.

Diameter of the cylinder, and tonnage it generates, has little to do with the load the motor sees.

You size the motor to the pump. The motor dont care what size cylinder there is, or how much force the cylinder can generate. What puts load on the motor is PSI.

IF you have both a 4" cylinder and a 5" cylinder.....and pump set at 2500 psi, the motor is gonna see the exact same load when generating max pressure.....no more. The difference is .....for that same 25000 PSI, the 5" cylinder can generate more power....but is proportionally slower as well.

Looking forward to seeing how the revisions to the lift and wedge work out. Keep us posted

 

[Ford850]

I'm kinda kicking myself for jumping so quickly on that 6.5 HP Predator engine ... even though it was a good price, the day after I picked it up and installed it, I got 20% and 25% off coupons for Harbor Freight on my phone.

I could have gotten the 8 hp Predator for about $180 ...

Not quite double what the 6.5 cost, but still a pretty good deal ...

Don't feel too bad over it. Most of the HF coupons exclude Predator anyway.

 

[rswyan]

Not really true.

Actually, it is true ...

Let's say it takes 15 tons of force to split a particular piece of wood.

Using my rig with the 4" cylinder, it would take 2387 psi to generate that much force ... and about 4.9 hp to generate that 2387 psi @ 3 gpm.

Using jimmy's rig with the 5" cylinder (but with the same pump), it would only take 1500 psi to generate that much force ... and only about 3.0 hp to generate to the 1500 psi @ 3 gpm.

Diameter of the cylinder, and tonnage it generates, has little to do with the load the motor sees.

Actually, I'd say it has a lot to do with it ... but I'm assuming a scenario in which one isn't seeing maximum pressure.

You size the motor to the pump.

No argument there ...

The motor dont care what size cylinder there is, or how much force the cylinder can generate.

Of course not ... it's an inanimate object ... it's incapable of feeling or thought ...

What puts load on the motor is PSI.

Yup ... that exactly true ... but when it takes less psi to generate the same splitting force, there is less load on the motor.

If you have both a 4" cylinder and a 5" cylinder.....and pump set at 2500 psi, the motor is gonna see the exact same load when generating max pressure.....no more.

That's also true ... but the part highlighted in bold is your qualification.

I didn't qualify my original statement in that manner ... which is why it is potentially true ... but not always true in every case (ie. max pressure)

The difference is .....for that same 2500 PSI, the 5" cylinder can generate more power....but is proportionally slower as well.

Yup ... and generating the same force at less pressure = less load on the motor.

Looking forward to seeing how the revisions to the lift and wedge work out. Keep us posted

Will do ...

 

[rswyan]

Don't feel too bad over it. Most of the HF coupons exclude Predator anyway.

Apparently, rumor has it, that they will accept the coupons on Predator gas engines ...

 

[rswyan]

One thing about the Predator engines is...most high performance Honda parts will fit them...
By just changing the carb. jets and the muffler (header) you can increase the HP...other mods will increase it even more...some guys have dyno tested the hemi-6.5 model at twice and three time the stated 6.5 HP...after the modifications...

FWIW...some good info on mods of all types for the Predators can be found here:

Honda / Clone / Predator

Good info to know ... :thumbsup:

 

[LD1]

Typically you see a max load on the motor scenario, momentarily, #1 when retracting the cylinder and building enough pressure to kick out the detent, and #2, when shifting the pump from high flow to low flow.

Those are the biggest "load" on the motor as they are nearing in on max HP requirements.

So in that asspect.....those two functions being pressure based, there would be no difference.

The point you make is valid, but overall....it is unlikely you would notice a difference in the two splitters in terms of how "hard" the motor is working. And besides, you have a 4" cylinder with 4-way wedge. IF you had a 5" cylinder you would probably have a 6-way or 8-way wedge....so you would just load it up more and the load on the motor would still be the same

 

[rswyan]

Typically you see a max load on the motor scenario, momentarily, #1 when retracting the cylinder and building enough pressure to kick out the detent, ...

I have a 1A and 1B on this one ... since I have detent on both retract and extend.

Also, the max pressure to kick out the detent is only 2000 psi ... which is 20% below max system pressure. Might be able to get more if the detent could be shimmed ... but I don't know how advisable that would be.

The valve will operate above 2000 psi of course, but you have to hold it.

and #2, when shifting the pump from high flow to low flow.

... assuming that one has the unloader on the pump adjusted so that it's maxing out the engine in high flow/low pressure mode ... which, from an efficiency standpoint, one should.

I'm not there yet ... as I backed the unloader adjustment out pretty far, as part of trying to figure out what was going on with that old engine. I can probably squeeze a little more out of the current setup as far as the shift point goes, without stalling the motor.

Those are the biggest "load" on the motor as they are nearing in on max HP requirements.

Except if I hold the valve in, after the detent releases, to generate maximum force on extend.

So in that aspect.....those two functions being pressure based, there would be no difference.

True.

The point you make is valid, but overall....it is unlikely you would notice a difference in the two splitters in terms of how "hard" the motor is working.

And besides, you have a 4" cylinder with 4-way wedge. IF you had a 5" cylinder you would probably have a 6-way or 8-way wedge....so you would just load it up more and the load on the motor would still be the same

Quite likely ...

 

[rswyan]

Thought I had the pin locations for the log lift sorted out ... but it turns out not.

So rather than taking one step forward only to have to take two steps back, I got all the dimensions and modeled the parts in my CAD program yesterday and spent a few hours trying to figure it out.

This thing is giving me fits ... could be it's a "you-can't-get-there-from-here" sorta deal ...

I think it's a combination of factors:

1. location chosen for the log lift hinge (arbitrary decision, and not easy to change at this point)

2. stroke length of cylinder being used (arbitrary decision, and not easy to change at this point)

3. log lift being three sections with two angles, rather than two sections with one angle (arbitrary decision, and not easy to change at this point)

The second (top) angle is creating a clearance problem with the cylinder, which prevents getting a decent initial starting angle.

Gonna spend some more time on it here in a bit and see if I can't come up with a solution.

 

[LD1]

Do you have the table back on the splitter? and the new cylinder base mount tacked on?

Perhaps post a good side shot of what you are into, maybe we can offer some advise.

 

[rswyan]

Do you have the table back on the splitter?

The output/catch table and the log lift are both back on the splitter currently.

... and the new cylinder base mount tacked on?

Nope ... decided no more tacking - or cutting metal for that matter - until I really have it figured out.

Base mount might be hanging up there with a magnet, hafta go check.

Perhaps post a good side shot of what you are into, maybe we can offer some advise.

I think I've come up with a workable solution ... at least in terms of clearances ... dunno about initial force.

A little more involved than I would have preferred, but probably the least amount of T and E in light of the various options.

I'm going to redo it as AJ suggested - cut the lift where the vertical section meets the section that is at 45 degrees ... and roll the vertical section back so it's laying at 45 degrees.

I'll have to extend the (new) 45 degree section a little ... to get it to meet the hinges. Hafta see what I have available in the way of steel to accomplish that.

Picture below shows the new design, both lowered and raised ... circles show the retracted and extended lengths of the cylinder, has about 55 degrees of swing in it's current incarnation:

The drawing is scale, major grid = 1', minor grid =1/2"

 

[rswyan]

LD,

Here's the new dimensions ... if you wouldn't mind running the numbers :

AB = 8.75"

BC = 18.25"

AC = 22.312"

AD = 46.812"

I make the initial angle to be 22.1427 degrees ... which should yield 6661 lbs of force @ 2500 psi.

Taking into consideration the leverage, or lack thereof, I get 47.66% (22.312 / 46.812) ... which means I should be to lift around 3130 lbs ...

That sound about right ?

 

[rswyan]

Just checked the odds and ends up in the shop ... should have enough 1 1/2 square tube to extend the lift out on a 45 degree angle and meet the hinge pins.

The piece of 1 x 3 bar stock that I cut and drilled for the base end attachment will work perfect with the current placement ... should still have 1/8" of retraction left after the lift hits the ground.

In comparison to the last drawing I posted, I'll be shortening the ends of the 1 1/2" tubes (that are on a 45 degree angle) at the top ... so that the log lift can be left in the "up" position as the push block travels down the beam. Should have plenty of clearance ... although there will be about a 3" gap between the lift and the beam.

Couple of new dimensions, after a little tweaking:

AB = 9"

BC = 18.125"

Initial angle: 22.8495 degrees ... ?

Cylinder force @ initial angle: 6862 lbs ... ?

Lift, taking leverage into account: 3270 lbs ... ?