Loader Bucket Breakout Force

[bdhsfz6]

I've found the FEL bucket breakout force to be somewhat lacking on every compact tractor I've used. My experience is mostly with Kubota but I've also noticed the issue on a few JD compacts. I can bury the bucket in a pile of loose soil and easily stall the curl cylinders until I back out a bit. In compacted soil, the problem is much worse. This issue has been discussed here many times in the past but I'm hoping to get some fresh opinions and ideas.

Before I buy new larger cylinders, I'd like to experiment with a pair I already have. They are 1/2 inch larger in diameter than the OEM's on my LA1055 FEL but the retracted length is 10" too long. They would fit if I used a pair of unused holes located farther up the FEL arms:



I'm not certain what these holes are used for except perhaps as a lifting point for installing / transporting the FEL frame.

I realize too much curl strength can damage the FEL frame or even the tractor front end. I'm not looking to pry a house off it's foundation. I'd be happy with just a modest 15 to 20% increase in breakout force.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[4570Man]

Your tractor isn’t a pay loader or a backhoe. A tooth bar would have the problem. And it’s possible to shorten a cylinder.

 

[gsganzer]

Have you checked what your hydraulic pressure is? On my L3800, it was on the low end of factory spec range (2280- 2410psi). I bumped it to an even 2500psi (I know, slightly higher than spec) and it's a whole lot better.

 

[teg]

Much easier to check your system's PSI pressure, and bump it up to the max (or gamble and do 10% more). Also, get a tooth bar to concentrate the breakout force onto a smaller area, the teeth.

 

[jeff9366]

Have you checked what your hydraulic pressure is? On my L3800, it was on the low end of factory spec range (2280- 2410psi). I bumped it to an even 2500psi (I know, slightly higher than spec) and it's a whole lot better.

This is the Prudent Man's solution.

Also the KISS Principle solution. (Keep it simple stupid)

 

[bdhsfz6]

Much easier to check your system's PSI pressure, and bump it up to the max (or gamble and do 10% more). Also, get a tooth bar to concentrate the breakout force onto a smaller area, the teeth.

I've increased the system pressure on a couple of my older Kubota's but I thought it was set at the factory on newer machines and not adjustable. How would I do this on a MX5800 and L6060 Kubota?

 

[pburchett]

I have noticed the same thing with my MX5200HST. Bucket and 3 point are a little weak but I think they rate it at the attachment point of the bucket and the end of the 3 point arms. So with a bucket of dirt way out front of the loader arms the power seems reduced. If I am not on level ground I will turn over using the bucket or pallet forks if I get them into a good pile of stuff. Maybe the weak setting will save my sorry hide and reduce abuse to my equipment.

 

[Creamer]

Plus your bucket is usually tipped slightly down when you are scooping and therefore it has to work against the pile because the arc of travel actually extends as it comes through the level point not to mention the wall of dirt or whatever you are trying to lift over and above what is in the bucket. If you back off half an inch even it should make a lot of difference in how your bucket works.

 

[mopardude318]

I'm also curious on how to check and change/increase the pressure on an M7060...

 

[LD1]

First, curl force and breakout are different.

Second.....yes all bets are off on possibly destroying something, or overloading front axle if you increase cylinder diameter.

The holes you picture I wouldn't use. They might just tear right out too, with no pin-boss for support.

The MX uses bar linkages for dumping. This is to increase the range of travel. And yes, curl is a bit weaker as a result.

My l3400 had cylinders directly coupled to bucket....alot stronger curl in relation.

Your cylinders that are 10" longer.....it's possible you could do away with the bar linkage and couple direct to bucket (ssqa adapter).

And also.....if the cylinders you already have and want to use are 1/2" bigger bore.....that's great.....but what's the rod diameters? Because you are retracting to curl

 

[mcfarmall]

.....that's great.....but what's the rod diameters? Because you are retracting to curl

^^What he said. Net area = cylinder bore area minus the area of the rod.

 

[bdhsfz6]

First, curl force and breakout are different.

Second.....yes all bets are off on possibly destroying something, or overloading front axle if you increase cylinder diameter.

The holes you picture I wouldn't use. They might just tear right out too, with no pin-boss for support.

The MX uses bar linkages for dumping. This is to increase the range of travel. And yes, curl is a bit weaker as a result.

My l3400 had cylinders directly coupled to bucket....alot stronger curl in relation.

Your cylinders that are 10" longer.....it's possible you could do away with the bar linkage and couple direct to bucket (ssqa adapter).

And also.....if the cylinders you already have and want to use are 1/2" bigger bore.....that's great.....but what's the rod diameters? Because you are retracting to curl

Yes, you are correct. Technically, breakout force is the total lift generated by both curl and lift cylinders. Adding curl force does however increase total breakout force.

The cylinder rod diameters are the same and I planned to weld pin bosses to the FEL arms.

I'll have to look at removing the bar linkage. Thanks for the information.

 

[LD1]

Still not technically correct about breakout. But doesn't matter.

Step one should be verifying pressure. A mild 200-300 psi difference is gonna make things noticably stronger. And a whole lot less work

 

[bdhsfz6]

Still not technically correct about breakout. But doesn't matter.

Step one should be verifying pressure. A mild 200-300 psi difference is gonna make things noticably stronger. And a whole lot less work

It's easy enough to check the pressure but how do you adjust it on newer tractors. My older Kubotas had an adjustable spring loaded bypass on the FEL valve. Newer models appear to have fixed non adjustable bypass valves. I suppose you could dismantle the valve body and shim the spring with a washer. Anyone know of a trick on how to do this?

 

[teg]

...I suppose you could dismantle the valve body and shim the spring with a washer. Anyone know of a trick on how to do this?

It looks like my Standard L... sure not in the same location. You can look up parts for your tractor here:Kubota Tractor Corporation - Illustrated Parts List You can even buy shims from your dealer. Only thing I had to do was tighten mine. Check that first... Definitely get a gauge to see before and after readings.

First is the parts diagram for your tractor... next is my L2800 location.

View attachment 536315

(Need to find my photo, be right back....)

 

[bdhsfz6]

It looks like my Standard L... sure not in the same location. You can look up parts for your tractor here:Kubota Tractor Corporation - Illustrated Parts List You can even buy shims from your dealer. Only thing I had to do was tighten mine. Check that first... Definitely get a gauge to see before and after readings.

First is the parts diagram for your tractor... next is my L2800 location.

View attachment 536315

(Need to find my photo, be right back....)

Your pic is similar to both the L6060 HST and MX5800 HST. I'll have to pull the protective cover off the L6060 to get a pic but the Hyd block on the MX5800 looks like this:

Side view Bottom view

I'm primarily concerned with the MX since it's the tractor I use to do most of my earthwork. The bolt shown looks to be the adjustment point. I'll play with it a bit and see if I can boost the breakout enough do without the cylinder swap.

Thanks for the information!

 

[Leejohn]

The other holes will not work, your cyls well hit the boom. No matter what you do you can't lift the hole pile. I was told that along time ago and also was told when the bucket is full get out of there, time is money.

 

[TSO]

That upper hole is likely for a self-leveling linkage... Possibly available in other markets (other countries). Some manufactures build one loader for numerous markets in such a way.

Also, once you check and verify proper pressure... If you need a stronger loader, buy a bigger tractor.

 

[teg]

...Bottom view View attachment 536424...

Looks like that is itView attachment 536429

Warning, just increasing this without knowing the pressure, you can blow a hose and your load will drop.

 

[MRCONCDID]

First check the pressure, 10% is the golden rule, it will make a huge difference. seriously

I am not familiar with your loader, but can you swap end to end the factory cylinders? therefore the rating would be the same but the curl back would be the stronger circuit and the curl down would be the weaker, instead of the way it is now? you could test by switching the hoses at the quick connect but then the controls would be backwards. if you like it then switch the cylinders around. dont leave the controls backwards, that could be dangerous to other drivers.

Just a thought.
MrC.