Load balancing

Avpowerstn · Jun 6, 2016

Hello everyone

Just purchased a 1980 Miller Tilt bed for my Ford 545A any advice on how to adjust the load...
I was told by a Trailer manufacturer that a hydraulic cylinder requires the axles to be placed too far forward, and that a scissor jack is best.
But at 13K I went with the Old Miller.

How good are Miller Trailers...?
Best way to balance...?

Thanks

F350 and tilt bed trailer 003 good pic lic blocked -sm.jpg

bdog · Jun 6, 2016

Looks heavy duty. What is the GVWR of the trailer?

Best way to balance it is get 10-15% of the gross weight of the trailer on the tongue. It might be a lot of weight for your truck. From the looks of it the tractor is going to have to about as far forward as it can go. What does your tractor weigh? The specs say that model ranges from 5k to over 12k. That trailer probably weighs at least 5k. Hope you have a heavy duty hitch.

tcartwri · Jun 6, 2016

Think you're going to be in trouble with tongue weight. That trailer probably weighs over a thousand pounds on the tongue empty. It appears to be at least a 15t rated trailer.

bdog · Jun 6, 2016

That is what I was going to guess. It is for sure a stout trailer. Looks like it was designed to be pulled with a dump truck or something similar. I have a ten ton pintle hitch trailer I originally bought to pull with my dump truck but I pull it sometimes with my dually. My dually has a flatbed with a 5/8" gusseted pintle plate and a 50 ton pintle hook though. OP will have issues if he tries to pull that trailer with a conventional receiver hitch setup. They are not designed for that much weight.

buickanddeere · Jun 7, 2016

As previously stated . Having more trailer than truck will cause problems. I have yet to hear anything about trailer brake operation.

Avpowerstn · Jun 9, 2016

buickanddeere said:
As previously stated . Having more trailer than truck will cause problems. I have yet to hear anything about trailer brake operation.

Thank You for the info.
The gentleman I bought the trailer from pulled his Deere 310E backhoe (13K lbs) with his F-250 (standard hitch).
He said his truck would drop about 6-8" when he cranked the leg up.
I dropped about 2" (trailer was empty) with my F-350.
I figured I needed a dump truck, the person I purchased my Ford 545A said it weighs 12K lbs (6 tons).
I was also told that the cylinder tilts, require the axles to be mounted closer to the front to make the tilt action work.
He said he uses a scissor lift now instead of a cylinder..axles go farther back ride is way smoother.
I was told to try to balance the load by backing up on the trailer possibly.
I was also told if I can get a good balance I would be able to load more than one would think... but that scares me.
Previous owner stated it did start to sway at about 35-40 MPH I knew that going into the purchase.
My last job was 7.5 miles away, and although I do enjoy the road respect I get driving the 545A I would prefer using the trailer.
It's a 1979 Miller Tilt Trailer, will post more info soon.
I would rather be safe than sorry
Oh yeah...Pintle is adjustable at the tongue (set at lowest setting right now)

bdog · Jun 9, 2016

What are you using for a pintle hook on your truck? If it is something going in a factory 2" receiver it isn't rated for that kind of weight.

I am guessing it is around a 97 model? Excellent trucks and engine but they were only rated to tow around 10,000lb. The weight of your tractor and trailer might be close to double that.

LD1 · Jun 9, 2016

I am not really sure what what you are looking to have answered here?

There is only two ways to load the tractor. Pull it on, or back it on. Try both, use what works best. But in either case, the trailer + load is NOT a good match for that truck IMO.

Do you know how much the trailer weighs empty? I am gonna venture a guess, just based on how its built, its north of 7000# empty.

And your machine, with loader, wheel weights, box scraper....I'd put it at ~13k.

So you are wanting to tow 20k bumper pull, from a hitch probably only rated at 10k, and no W/D hitch with pintle, with a 2-decade old truck, that is lifted and oversized tires to boot.....

I'd re-think your plans. Get a truck to match the trailer and load. Or at the very least, if you insist on towing that 545 with THAT truck, get a GN plate, and a lighter ~16k GN trailer. Still gonna work the snot out of the truck, but with an adequate hitch, and good trailer brakes I dont see it as being unsafe.

tcartwri · Jun 9, 2016

LD1 said:
I am not really sure what what you are looking to have answered here?

There is only two ways to load the tractor. Pull it on, or back it on. Try both, use what works best. But in either case, the trailer + load is NOT a good match for that truck IMO.

Do you know how much the trailer weighs empty? I am gonna venture a guess, just based on how its built, its north of 7000# empty.

And your machine, with loader, wheel weights, box scraper....I'd put it at ~13k.

So you are wanting to tow 20k bumper pull, from a hitch probably only rated at 10k, and no W/D hitch with pintle, with a 2-decade old truck, that is lifted and oversized tires to boot.....

I'd re-think your plans. Get a truck to match the trailer and load. Or at the very least, if you insist on towing that 545 with THAT truck, get a GN plate, and a lighter ~16k GN trailer. Still gonna work the snot out of the truck, but with an adequate hitch, and good trailer brakes I dont see it as being unsafe.

I agree, it is a very poor idea. And when that trailer starts to sway it will be unrecoverable.

Gary Fowler · Jun 9, 2016

Classic example of buying more than one needs for the job. Now you need a dump truck or a used semi-tractor to pull the trailer with. Semi-tractors might be cheaper than a dump truck unless you need the dump truck for hauling material that you dig up with the backhoe.

Avpowerstn · Jun 9, 2016

LD1 said:
I am not really sure what what you are looking to have answered here?

There is only two ways to load the tractor. Pull it on, or back it on. Try both, use what works best. But in either case, the trailer + load is NOT a good match for that truck IMO.

Do you know how much the trailer weighs empty? I am gonna venture a guess, just based on how its built, its north of 7000# empty.

And your machine, with loader, wheel weights, box scraper....I'd put it at ~13k.

So you are wanting to tow 20k bumper pull, from a hitch probably only rated at 10k, and no W/D hitch with pintle, with a 2-decade old truck, that is lifted and oversized tires to boot.....

I'd re-think your plans. Get a truck to match the trailer and load. Or at the very least, if you insist on towing that 545 with THAT truck, get a GN plate, and a lighter ~16k GN trailer. Still gonna work the snot out of the truck, but with an adequate hitch, and good trailer brakes I dont see it as being unsafe.

Well said, and your numbers are extremely close.
I might run an add in Craigslist for a equipment hauling service till I can get a dump truck.
I was also told to go with a gooseneck, and airbags. But I hate to cut up the Ford F-350 after all she is a classic (although with 100K miles and is just broken in).
I will re-think my plans.
What truck (dually) or dump truck would you gentlemen recommend for a first timer with a limited start up budget (affordable old stuff is fine as you can see)
I have no problem with "over kill" safety is #1

Thank You for the advice.

LD1 · Jun 9, 2016

the problem with overkill is when it comes to trailering, it dont always mean safer.

Overkill on the hitch....okay.
Overkill on the trailer...not okay if it puts you way over your tow capacity.

A 16k GN trailer having 4 tires on the ground, with a reasonable tongue weight, should handle the 13k load no problem. But would be at the upper limits. Assuming the trailer is in the ~4500# range, but put 2500# on the pin, you would be limited to 14k on the trailer deck safely.

But even a 24k trailer, with 8 tires, is about 6500# for a 25' trailer. add your 13k load, and you are towing 20k.

It really wasnt until about the last 5 years that truck MFG's actually gave out tow ratings that high on the DRW trucks. But MFG ratings are just that, and isnt what makes a load legal vs illegal.

bdog · Jun 9, 2016

Do you have a class A CDL?

buickanddeere · Jun 9, 2016

Tow the trailer with the tractor and place the truck on the trailer.
Was anything mentioned about brakes? I can't seem to find info?

Avpowerstn · Jun 12, 2016

bdog said:
Do you have a class A CDL?

No That was an option I was thinking about. Class C and M that's it.
We are on the same page

Avpowerstn · Jun 12, 2016

LD1 said:
the problem with overkill is when it comes to trailering, it dont always mean safer.

Overkill on the hitch....okay.
Overkill on the trailer...not okay if it puts you way over your tow capacity.

A 16k GN trailer having 4 tires on the ground, with a reasonable tongue weight, should handle the 13k load no problem. But would be at the upper limits. Assuming the trailer is in the ~4500# range, but put 2500# on the pin, you would be limited to 14k on the trailer deck safely.

But even a 24k trailer, with 8 tires, is about 6500# for a 25' trailer. add your 13k load, and you are towing 20k.

It really wasnt until about the last 5 years that truck MFG's actually gave out tow ratings that high on the DRW trucks. But MFG ratings are just that, and isnt what makes a load legal vs illegal.

Excellent info safety is my #1 priority

Avpowerstn · Jun 12, 2016

bdog said:
What are you using for a pintle hook on your truck? If it is something going in a factory 2" receiver it isn't rated for that kind of weight.

I am guessing it is around a 97 model? Excellent trucks and engine but they were only rated to tow around 10,000lb. The weight of your tractor and trailer might be close to double that.

Spot on on the year 1997

bdog · Jun 12, 2016

You never did answer what you are using for a hitch?

I have pulled my 13,000lb skid steer on a 10 ton triple axle pintle hitch trailer that weighs around 6k behind my dually before and it did ok but I have a custom built hitch designed for the load and GMC rates my truck for 19k conventional towing.

I have a class A CDL and it is definitely required when towing the setup described above.

You have one heck of a load there that would be much better on a gooseneck and preferably a dually. That being said I know many people get by with what they have. Until we hear more about your hitch I think that is the weakest link in this setup and depending on what it is may be flat out unsafe. I would never recommend going over a manufacturers rating on anything but all that type of stuff has some safety margin built in. You can usually overload things a little with no adverse effects but when you start going double the ratings which you may be doing here bad things are going to happen. Not a matter of if but a matter of when.

Btown · Jun 12, 2016

This combo of trailer and loader is way, way too heavy for your very nice truck. Can the truck pull it, Yes. Cans the truck stop it, yes. But can you stop it fast, nope. That load is too much. You need a new one ton dually or 450/4500 to move this. Your hitch is not rated for it.

Avpowerstn · Jun 13, 2016

bdog said:
You never did answer what you are using for a hitch?

I have pulled my 13,000lb skid steer on a 10 ton triple axle pintle hitch trailer that weighs around 6k behind my dually before and it did ok but I have a custom built hitch designed for the load and GMC rates my truck for 19k conventional towing.

I have a class A CDL and it is definitely required when towing the setup described above.

You have one heck of a load there that would be much better on a gooseneck and preferably a dually. That being said I know many people get by with what they have. Until we hear more about your hitch I think that is the weakest link in this setup and depending on what it is may be flat out unsafe. I would never recommend going over a manufacturers rating on anything but all that type of stuff has some safety margin built in. You can usually overload things a little with no adverse effects but when you start going double the ratings which you may be doing here bad things are going to happen. Not a matter of if but a matter of when.