Linear Actuator for ct120 grapple

[ticolawnllc]

I placed an order yesterday for a repair workbook for the tractor. I'm somewhat mechanically inclined but not the greatest. I'm going to wait and see what's up with the leak from rear left wheel

 

[Xfaxman]

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There was a thread about a mechanical closing bucket and grapple that was done by clever use of linkages that the bucket closed against the grapple as it curled back. I can't find it now.

I saved the drawings, with his member name, in my "Project Ideas" file, so did a search on his "Started Threads" and found it: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/353078-heavy-duty-mechanical-grapple-little.html

 

[IslandTractor]

I saved the drawings, with his member name, in my "Projects" file, so did a search on his "Started Threads" and found it: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/353078-heavy-duty-mechanical-grapple-little.html

View attachment 496865

If I recall correctly you lose the normal curl function if you rig such a grapple closing device. Given the complexity and limitation I don't see it as a particularly viable option. Not that big a deal to rig up some rear remotes and just use those to control a grapple.

 

[roadhunter]

1) I never said YOU didn't know what ballast was about. You had however raised ballast in a discussion that was focused on lifting power. I tried to clarify for the OP.
2) One plans ballast needs ahead of time. Not rocket science. If you find during a lift that you misjudged and need more ballast then stop what you are doing and fit some different 3PT implement to raise ballast. As is clearly documented in any tractor owner's manual, ballast must be added when using the FEL. On my CK20 I had beet juice in the rear tires and I never lifted anything significant without either a bush hog (about 500lbs) or a backhoe (about 700-800lbs) extending from the rear of the tractor. On rare occasion I have extended the BH boom with a bucket full of dirt to maximize ballast leverage. I wouldn't travel more than a short distance slowly with such a set up.
3) I could raise the rear wheels even with the bush hog and rimguard if I stuck the grapple under a fresh stump and curled/lifted. No biggie. Just set the tractor back down and work to loosen up the stump more by ripping side roots before trying again. I removed dozens of stumps that way. Perfectly safe. The loads on the front axle in such a situation are smooth and progressive not jerky or dynamic and the engineers built the front axles to manage whatever the loader could deliver.
4) I have a tractor almost identical to your CT450, the Kioti DK40se. I assure you it can lift more than 1000lbs and move it safely. Photo below shows a granite boulder that by volume weighed between 2000-2500lbs. I didn't try to lift it higher than seen in the photo and I lowered it almost to the ground before moving it. I used a BH for ballast. The rear felt light but as I was only moving 100 feet or so to the side of the field I just moved slowly and finished the job. I didn't see whether I could lift it higher as I had no reason to but I'm pretty sure I was about maxed out on lift and recognized it would be stupid to raise the tractor center of gravity unnecessarily when lifting such a load.
5) DK40 also lifted a 7ft section of Jersey barrier at about 400lbs per foot =about 2800lbs. I didn't try to lift it higher than I needed to to move it several hundred yards across a field. I recall I only had a flail mower as ballast.
6) To get back to the OP's situation, he has a CT120 which I believe has just about the same lift capacity as a CK20: a bit over 1000lbs to full height at pivot pins. A 48" bucket holds about 1/4 yard so if loaded with sand would weigh about 600-700lbs. I have lifted that much sand to near full height with a CK20 when loading a pickup truck with sand.

Bottom line: The CT120 can certainly lift more than the 400lbs in the bucket estimated by the OP. Just ballast it properly and pay attention to dynamic forces when moving (slowly!).

I can assure you that you did not pick up a 2,500 pound boulder that far away from yoru pins or a 2,800 pound chunk of barrier with your Kioti but if want to believe so knock yourself out. Whatever that boulder weighted and the weight of the tractor, bucket, QA, and rear attachment was likely almost all on your front axle. Not a safe working load for what the op is doing running around in people's yards

It's simply not practical to screw around swapping out impediments to find one which will work for what you are picking up for most people and certainly not an option for the OP doing tree work as carrying around other attachments is not practical.

IMO tractors need to have a safe working load and tipping load given like skid steers are as going off the rated capacity is not realistic from my experience as QA's, bucket, and loads beyond the rating at the pins or at 24" decreases capacity as does working on uneven terrain.

Your tractor will likely pick up about 1,500 pounds 24" from the pins on your FEL by the time you back out the QA nd bucket/forks/grapple and that is on flat ground with a good counterweight. Safe working load is likely about 1,000 pounds.

OPs tractor will probably lift 700-800 pounds at 24" with a counterweight on flat ground but a safe load is probably more like 400-500 to keep some weight on the rears and not tear up the yards where he is working or sik tipping if the terrain is uneven.

 

[4570Man]

There is a difference in what the hydraulics will actually lift and a safe working load. Almost any piece of industrial equipment ( tractors aren't industrial equipment) has far more hydraulic capacity than they can safely use. A skid steers operating capacity is usually half of tipped load. A skid steer still has strong enough hydraulics to lift the back end off the ground. My forklift is rated to lift 6500 pounds at 24". I lifted 2.3 pallets of concrete blocks at the same time and it didn't tip. I've never found anything this forklift couldn't lift but I'd say it would tip long before the hydraulics give up. It lifts with a 4" cylinder at unknown pressure. The cylinder pushes straight up so there's no loss of force to leverage. I tipped my other forklift trying to lift the back end of a 25,000 pound machine at the tip of the forks. Had the back end been chained down the forks would have probably bent before the hydraulics gave up. This one uses a 6" cylinder at unknown pressure. It did lift the load once I moved it closer to the front axel. The tilt cylinders do suffer a drastic loss to leverage so I'd guess the operating pressure of both forklifts is fairly high.

 

[IslandTractor]

I can assure you that you did not pick up a 2,500 pound boulder that far away from yoru pins or a 2,800 pound chunk of barrier with your Kioti but if want to believe so knock yourself out. Whatever that boulder weighted and the weight of the tractor, bucket, QA, and rear attachment was likely almost all on your front axle. Not a safe working load for what the op is doing running around in people's yards

It's simply not practical to screw around swapping out impediments to find one which will work for what you are picking up for most people and certainly not an option for the OP doing tree work as carrying around other attachments is not practical.

IMO tractors need to have a safe working load and tipping load given like skid steers are as going off the rated capacity is not realistic from my experience as QA's, bucket, and loads beyond the rating at the pins or at 24" decreases capacity as does working on uneven terrain.

Your tractor will likely pick up about 1,500 pounds 24" from the pins on your FEL by the time you back out the QA nd bucket/forks/grapple and that is on flat ground with a good counterweight. Safe working load is likely about 1,000 pounds.

OPs tractor will probably lift 700-800 pounds at 24" with a counterweight on flat ground but a safe load is probably more like 400-500 to keep some weight on the rears and not tear up the yards where he is working or sik tipping if the terrain is uneven.

Do you think I photoshopped the boulder? :laughing: Do the math on the boulder and concrete barrier. Pretty easy to estimate dimensions and calculate cubic feet of granite or concrete. Look up pounds per cubit foot if you don't believe me.

You also seem to forget that lifting capacity is measured by the manufacturer to full height. I stated clearly that I lifted the objects in the photos to only the height necessary to travel as photographed. If my loader is rated at 2760lbs to full height, it can lift considerably more than that figure to three feet off the ground at pivot pins. The boulder was lifted out of the ground at roughly pivot pin level and then curled. 48" light duty grapple weighs about 300lbs. Boulder wouldn't fit in grapple jaw lengthwise and grapple jaw opening is 43" wide. Go figure. I measured it once upon a time to estimate volume and did the calculation. It was between 2000-2500lbs.

We are in agreement that balance, especially when moving with a big load is a significant safety concern. I always keep heavy loads low and always keep my hand on the FEL when traveling. I also, as noted, don't travel long distances with loads as big as I can lift. CUTs are not equipped to lift more than can be safely moved if one observes reasonable precautions. It goes without saying that one doesn't carry a heavy load in rough terrain where unseen bumps and dips can upset dynamic balance. That said, if someone is planning to move bags of cement from a trailer to a work site on level ground, there is no reason to limit the size of the load to 50% of capacity. Keep the load low, centered and travel slowly.

 

[IslandTractor]

There is a difference in what the hydraulics will actually lift and a safe working load. Almost any piece of industrial equipment ( tractors aren't industrial equipment) has far more hydraulic capacity than they can safely use. A skid steers operating capacity is usually half of tipped load. A skid steer still has strong enough hydraulics to lift the back end off the ground. My forklift is rated to lift 6500 pounds at 24". I lifted 2.3 pallets of concrete blocks at the same time and it didn't tip. I've never found anything this forklift couldn't lift but I'd say it would tip long before the hydraulics give up. It lifts with a 4" cylinder at unknown pressure. The cylinder pushes straight up so there's no loss of force to leverage. I tipped my other forklift trying to lift the back end of a 25,000 pound machine at the tip of the forks. Had the back end been chained down the forks would have probably bent before the hydraulics gave up. This one uses a 6" cylinder at unknown pressure. It did lift the load once I moved it closer to the front axel. The tilt cylinders do suffer a drastic loss to leverage so I'd guess the operating pressure of both forklifts is fairly high.

No doubt we have all seen videos on Youtube of skidsteers flipping or tipping over with heavy loads lifted high. It is generally dynamic forces rather than simply static lifting that causes such accidents. What is also notable however is the rarity of such accidents being reported here on TBN. I don't think CUTs generally have nearly the lift capacity of similar sized (foot print or horsepower) skidsteers. Almost impossible to tip a well ballasted CUT over forwards or backwards with a "too heavy" load in the bucket/grapple. Our CUTs loaders are wimpy by comparison to skidsteers of the same basic size and horsepower. Tipping over sideways is a different issue but that is clearly related to dynamic forces and uneven ground when traveling.

 

[4570Man]

No doubt we have all seen videos on Youtube of skidsteers flipping or tipping over with heavy loads lifted high. It is generally dynamic forces rather than simply static lifting that causes such accidents. What is also notable however is the rarity of such accidents being reported here on TBN. I don't think CUTs generally have nearly the lift capacity of similar sized (foot print or horsepower) skidsteers. Almost impossible to tip a well ballasted CUT over forwards or backwards with a "too heavy" load in the bucket/grapple. Our CUTs loaders are wimpy by comparison to skidsteers of the same basic size and horsepower. Tipping over sideways is a different issue but that is clearly related to dynamic forces and uneven ground when traveling.

Dynamic forces are what causes accidents, but a SS does have the hydraulic ability to tip it's self over. A skid steer is also very precisely balanced. I watched my buddy attempt to load one on a trailer without the bucket. It wouldn't do it and he ended up putting the bucket on to load it.

 

[roadhunter]

Do you think I photoshopped the boulder? :laughing: Do the math on the boulder and concrete barrier. Pretty easy to estimate dimensions and calculate cubic feet of granite or concrete. Look up pounds per cubit foot if you don't believe me.

You also seem to forget that lifting capacity is measured by the manufacturer to full height. I stated clearly that I lifted the objects in the photos to only the height necessary to travel as photographed. If my loader is rated at 2760lbs to full height, it can lift considerably more than that figure to three feet off the ground at pivot pins. The boulder was lifted out of the ground at roughly pivot pin level and then curled. 48" light duty grapple weighs about 300lbs. Boulder wouldn't fit in grapple jaw lengthwise and grapple jaw opening is 43" wide. Go figure. I measured it once upon a time to estimate volume and did the calculation. It was between 2000-2500lbs.

We are in agreement that balance, especially when moving with a big load is a significant safety concern. I always keep heavy loads low and always keep my hand on the FEL when traveling. I also, as noted, don't travel long distances with loads as big as I can lift. CUTs are not equipped to lift more than can be safely moved if one observes reasonable precautions. It goes without saying that one doesn't carry a heavy load in rough terrain where unseen bumps and dips can upset dynamic balance. That said, if someone is planning to move bags of cement from a trailer to a work site on level ground, there is no reason to limit the size of the load to 50% of capacity. Keep the load low, centered and travel slowly.

I am going form experience with similar sized tractors and looking at how far the boulder is from the pins and how small the boulder is. I'd guess it to be about 1,500 pounds at the most considering how far it is from the pins.

If you want to believe your tractor will lift 2500+ pounds 24" from the pins so be it. I had a similar sized tractor and was always disappointed with what I could lift while keeping at least a little bit of pressure on the rear axle.

And you are also incorrect about the loader capacity at full height versus just off the ground a few feet. Lift capacity is least when the load is furthest from the tractor at about 3 ft of height. Once the load starts getting closer as you raise up the loader more weight will shift the rear of the tractor.

A skid steer working load is approximately 1/2 of tipping capacity. tractor safe working load is probably about 1/2 rated capacity as well.

 

[4570Man]

What were the dimensions of the bolder? Google says granite and limestone weigh approximately 175 pounds per cubic foot with sandstone being less at approximately 150 pounds per cubic foot. I'd be inclined to agree it's not a 2500 pounds bolder.

 

[IslandTractor]

It isn't a true rectangle so was a bit hard to measure. I know the long dimension was over 43" as I couldn't fit it in the grapple maw that way. It was about 24" on the wider side. I don't recall the third dimension but think it was somewhere around 20" based on how far the grapple is closed on it. I figured it was between ten and twelve cubic feet. Some reference had granite at 175lbs/sqft so that would make it just over 2000lbs if the long dimension was just barely over 43".

I'm going down to the property this week so I'll try to remember to measure it. I'm pretty sure nobody has moved it from the side of the field where I left it ten years ago!

 

[ticolawnllc]

This is the most I can hope to pick up with his tractor. I don't have the most ballast in the back and put it in there is a weighted three point hitch trailer hitch.

 

[ticolawnllc]

In some cases if more balance is needed what I do is I could've blogs and I attach them to the three point hitch that way I don't to carry around a big implement on the trailer where space is at a premium

 

[ticolawnllc]

This I'm picking up enough to drag out to the street. But the tractor at this point is having a hard time even lifting it enough to tip the machine

 

[ticolawnllc]

The kit came in