Lifting via FEL vs 3 point? Maybe I've looking at it wrong thinking I NEED a FEL?

[RalphVa]

When you cut things down "like butter; you say", get yourself a Buckthorn Blaster dauber. Fill it with concentrated Roundup and apply to the stump right after cutting. Thing will not come back applied June-Feb.

Ralph

 

[MechanicalGuy]

Not gonna comment on the price range, but if you want trees to go by by forever, get a pirahna bar for the bucket and pop those roots up and gone real easy.

 

[rademamj1]

MechanicalGuy: You recommended using the Piranha Bar on the FEL bucket? Does this really work using the Piranha Bar to "pop out" stumps? Can you give short detailed description of the procedure or process.

The reason I ask, is that i usually grind all stumps 3" and bigger to below ground level. They are no longer an issue. But this leaves me with lots of small stumps 2" or smaller remaining above ground, which is a major threat to mower blades.

 

[LD1]

Yep, $5 grand is the issue.

In terms of modern stuff...last two decades.....a 30-40HP tractor with loader will probably do all you need, up to the 1000 pounds.

2500# pallets....assuming you have to unload off a truck or trailer that limits you to front loader. And thats gonna take 50-60hp machines.

But being dry.....wanting to do dirt work and lifting primarily....have you considered a skid loader?

 

[i7win7]

MechanicalGuy: You recommended using the Piranha Bar on the FEL bucket? Does this really work using the Piranha Bar to "pop out" stumps? Can you give short detailed description of the procedure or process.

The reason I ask, is that i usually grind all stumps 3" and bigger to below ground level. They are no longer an issue. But this leaves me with lots of small stumps 2" or smaller remaining above ground, which is a major threat to mower blades.

Too late for existing stumps

 

[rScotty]

For what it's worth, the following 3 implements can be used on the 3pt. Boom pole (engine hoist), dirt scoop (poor mans fel/bucket), Box Blade for land leveling. Even harder to find is used 3pt forklift (not forks, something that lifts). A FEL with forks requires one of the larger compact tractors. Or one of the "regular" tractors from the 60-80's era before they started making them lightweight. Kubota loaders use a numbering system where # is approximate lifting power at the curling pin in kilograms. ex. LA545 should be around 500k or 1100 lbs at curl pin, subtract weight of forks, distance from curl pin, around 700lbs estimate on usable lifting weight.

An 50 year old tractor should handle your needs nicely Tractor House website or magazines will help you decide what you need and approximate selling prices. Tractordata.com will allow you to research the tractor/fel specs. Good luck on your search.

Yep, I agree. For around $5000 he should be able to get a nice older Ag tractor in the 35 to 50 hp range that will do just what he needs. In the exact same situation, my choice was a JD530 (with power steering!) with a reversible cat. II 3pt dirt scoop (known as a Poor Man's FEL). The tractor still works fine half a century later. We even eventually replaced that 3pt dirt scoop with an original thousand doller FEL from the tractor junkyard that bolted up and still works fine. Total investment was well under $5000.

But there's no need to go back that far. Look at the JD 2010s through 4020s from the late 60s and early 70s. And later series all the way up to about 2004 or so. Some of the older ones are gas. Equally good tractors were made by Massey and Ford - and others too. Those worn out but usable Ag tractors are rarely advertised for sale...after all, they only cost abot 10K new. you have to go out to a small town and look around. Expect to be surprised when you find out that farm tractors from the mid 1960S and up for the next 40 years - which will do everything you want and fit your budget - will actually be less expensive than the smaller "collectible" tractors like the Ford 8N and Massey T20/35 which are even older....AND which WILL NOT do nearly as much.

Most farmers will have a trailer or know where to borrow one so you can haul it home. I expect that you are a decent mechanic. For that price you will expect to do neglected maintenance and tune up....but a oldr ag tractor should be basically sound.

Here's a picture of the 3pt dirt scoop we are calling a "poor man's FEL". The lifting capacity of the dirt scoop on the 3pt of the 33 hp JD Ag tractor is about a ton. You can also scoop in fwd or rev. Dumping is manual.

Luck, rScotty

 

[sandman2234]

You sometimes see 3ph forklift masts for sale. Except for having to be turned around, this is the natural choice. It's where a tractor should be carrying the weight anyways. On the heavy rear axle, and the robust driven one on a 2WD.

I bought a 1989 JD2555 (for less than his budget) and bought the carriage from a couple of forklifts, mounted 3 point pins on them and it will outlift the FEL on my Kubota M7040 as far as weight. The issue with it is being able to pick up something high enough to put it in a truck bed or get it out, but a low trailer solves that problem. Things not on pallets can be hoisted with a 3 point boom pole. I like the idea of using the whole forklift mast to get the height needed to put things in a pickup truck. A "LiL' Joe" is a pull around forklift that actually would make a great donor for a 3 point mast. It is a shame that the original poster (Bad Decisions) lives so far away, or I would make him a package deal on most of what he needs for his budget.
Seems if I can find the tractor in Florida, one should be found a little closer.
David from jax

 

[LouNY]

Many of the 50-65 HP ag tractors in 2wd will have as much traction in 2wd as most of the sub compact and compact modern tractors.
The Allis D-17 and up, the Oliver 1500 and up, the International (Farmall) 656 and up, as well as the Massy and Whites and Fords will do every thing the original poster and ones in decent shape are available for under $5000.
I would recommend the row crop versions and not the utility versions, many of the utilities you are sitting a straddle the transmission and hydraulic reservoir which will get uncomfortably hot in the summer up over 160 F some times when worked hard and long.
Also even though they are lower to the ground climbing on to them and then having to twist and turn getting set down gets more and more difficult as the years go by.

 

[MechanicalGuy]

MechanicalGuy: You recommended using the Piranha Bar on the FEL bucket? Does this really work using the Piranha Bar to "pop out" stumps? Can you give short detailed description of the procedure or process.

The reason I ask, is that i usually grind all stumps 3" and bigger to below ground level. They are no longer an issue. But this leaves me with lots of small stumps 2" or smaller remaining above ground, which is a major threat to mower blades.

All I do for small stumps 3" or less, mostly I've done a bunch of 2" stumps, just put the corner of the pirahna bar right at the base of the stump at a sharp angle, under the ground about 2" or so, and drive the tractor forward, curl the bucket upward or lift straight up. "Pop" out comes the root ball. Done it dozens of times on privet, pine, and other root balls. Works way better than my grapple.

The bar is sharp and the v-sections funnel the root into them and the sharp bar won't let go of the root.

 

[rademamj1]

Thanks so much for that short but detailed summary on small stump removal. I also found some videos on Utube which documents exactly your procedure.

I have an estimated 45 stumps, about 3" or less that need removal. I just flag them with a pole to avoid mower damage and really need to remove them. I just found the "wicked bar" online from Everything Attachments, and will order one for my bucket.
Much Appreciated!

 

[MechanicalGuy]

Thanks so much for that short but detailed summary on small stump removal. I also found some videos on Utube which documents exactly your procedure.

I have an estimated 45 stumps, about 3" or less that need removal. I just flag them with a pole to avoid mower damage and really need to remove them. I just found the "wicked bar" online from Everything Attachments, and will order one for my bucket.
Much Appreciated!

The wicked bar looks very well designed to do the same thing. I doubt it digs as well as the pirahna bar though.

 

[BlueKnife]

Thanks so much for that short but detailed summary on small stump removal. I also found some videos on Utube which documents exactly your procedure.

I have an estimated 45 stumps, about 3" or less that need removal. I just flag them with a pole to avoid mower damage and really need to remove them. I just found the "wicked bar" online from Everything Attachments, and will order one for my bucket.
Much Appreciated!

Have you had a tree service out to give you a quote to grind those? 45 stumps that small would only take an hour or so with a decent grinder if they're not spread out too far.

 

[BadDecisions]

After over a year of thinking, looking, hemming and hawing, I found a 8N on CL yesterday with what I think is a Wagner loader (jungle gym, hydraulic curl bucket, not trip), that came home with me with $2700. Probably a way high price for many of you, but cheap tractors don't come along often here in the desert southwest, and when they do, they seem to sell before they even finish posting online. For those of us with regular jobs, it's rare to get the timing down to snatch them up.

It's not a perfect solution, front bucket is a bit narrow, Armstrong steering will be fun, needs tires, a couple hydraulic cylinder seals replaced and some other maintenance things, but at half the price of anything else suitable that I've seen, I can deal with it. Even running around unloaded, I completely understand why some people view power steering as an absolute requirement, lol.

Ran a few passes with the FEL bucket over one of my well overgrown areas, and the bucket scraped it clean just like I imagined it would, leaving a nice pile of weeds and brush at the end. Did more clearing in 15 mins last night than I was able to pull off in months by hand. This will do Though I found some videos on YouTube of using a landscape rake, and that seemed like it would do a much cleaner/more even job. I'll watch the various marketplaces for a used one, along with hunting for a 6ft box blade.

 

[LouNY]

If you do a search for add on power steering for a ford 8N you will find many options if you decide it's needed.

 

[rScotty]

Congratulations. Yes, that's the very definition of a budget tractor....but a decent one for the money and they can be fixed up indefinitely for little cash outlay and parts are surprisingly available. Plus there are a lot of active 8N owners to share with. They are even 8N collectors and used to be 8N tractor groups...maybe still are. You've probably already found the vintage Ford group on TBN:
https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/ford-vintage-tractors/

Around here, and in really good condition, that 8N plus jungle gym Wagner Loader combo would probably bring $4500. Whether it is worth that much is questionable, but they bring it.
In the condition you describe & needing tires, the price you paid is about right. Old tires do last quite well even when split and ugly. As you already know, the biggie is power steering. Add that and life becomes much easier. The need for PS is increased because that Wagner was heavy and in all the wrong places. The trick without power steering is to put the bucket down, turn the steering wheel to aim, pick up the bucket, and proceed.... Sounds worse than it is. And it still beats doing by hand. Power steering and accessory hydraulics are actually easy to add to the 8N, but few people do. And it is the lack of power steering more than anything else that makes people who start with older tractors decide eventually to get a more modern one. Well, PS and the overall balance. The 8N is much heavier on the front end even before the Wagner FEL was added. Modern tractors have more weight over the rear to start, and a lighter weight loader mounted to a subframe to distribute the stress. All those things worth thinking about so you don't overload the 8N.

Just take it easy on the 8N and it will work for you forever. Especially on flat sandy ground. The narrow bucket is about all it should be allowed to handle. They are too front heavy already. Don't want to break things.

BTW, most 8Ns can use a rebuild of the steering components all the way through - from tires to steering wheel. Easy, inexpensive and will help a lot. Some people add an accessory hydraulic pump to speed things up. I like the ones that run off the front of the engine pulley. And it is surprising how many 8ns need the electrics cleaned up. Such a simple job but rarely done.. Like the brakes - simple but rarely done.

Anyway, enjoy your tractor. Massey, and JD from the same era are even more capable....but nothing is as cute as a Ford 8N.

Oh,.... Implements are cheap and old ones easily borrowed to try out. Box blades especially; $100 will generally buy one. You want about a 5 or 6 footer depending on weight..... and you do need some weight on the back. Imlements last forever in the dry Western air. Every old tractor guy has a yard full.

It took me way too many years to finally find the right implement to complement our old JD tractor.
I wish I'd known then what I know now....about implements anyway....
You'll learn about them too.

rScotty

 

[clarky711]

The wicked bar looks very well designed to do the same thing. I doubt it digs as well as the pirahna bar though.

I’m curious why you don’t think the wicked bar will dig as well as the piranha bar? I’m debating on the two and was leaning towards the wicked one, however digging is the primary reason for the purchase. Thanks!

 

[i7win7]

Ripping out tree stump - YouTube
Pulling Stumps with a Subsoiler - Yes You Can! - YouTube

Videos of using subsoiler to pull stumps

 

[lennyzx11]

Congratulations on the tractor.
Carry something on that 3 point for counterweight to offset the weight of the loader and load.
I used one of the 3 point scoops and would scoop dirt or pile concrete blocks in it. Also made a good carry all. Bonus was got to carry more dirt per trip!
You want to get the weight off that front axle and tires back on that big ol rear axle and tires.

Air the front tires up to the max pressure.

Grease the steering system up good.

 

[JJZ 109]

Though it's very likely out of your price range you may be better off with a skid steer. You can do some grading work. Add pallet forks and you have a much more capable lifting machine than most any tractor loader.
I have a Bobcat S185 that handles one ton pallets of wood pellets every fall when I buy them. And with a skid steer the bucket edge is right there for you to see when doing loader work.

Edit: Didn't scroll through the entire 4 pages and see about the 8N. Over time you'll make the improvements and find implements that you need or want. The loader will never lift pallets of salt for you but you'll still be better off pulling several bags at a time off the pallet and putting them into the loader to move than hand loading/unloading & moving every bag.

 

[BadDecisions]

Though it's very likely out of your price range you may be better off with a skid steer. You can do some grading work. Add pallet forks and you have a much more capable lifting machine than most any tractor loader.
I have a Bobcat S185 that handles one ton pallets of wood pellets every fall when I buy them. And with a skid steer the bucket edge is right there for you to see when doing loader work.

Edit: Didn't scroll through the entire 4 pages and see about the 8N. Over time you'll make the improvements and find implements that you need or want. The loader will never lift pallets of salt for you but you'll still be better off pulling several bags at a time off the pallet and putting them into the loader to move than hand loading/unloading & moving every bag.

I had actually thought about the Bobcat route too, but also had concerns that using it for lifting may be crippled more as the bucket doesn't extend much past the front of the machine. Thus, it would be fine for moving loose materials, and perhaps not so much for lifting something heavy out of the truck bed.

This all just illustrates the typical first timer conundrum - we don't know what we don't know. In this case, realizing that there likely isn't a "jack of all trades" solution for my needs, yet not really knowing what would represent the best value, and difficulty for many of the experienced people to relate. A large part of the budget constraints come from wanting to limit my mistake exposure, in that I can make ten $2,000 "learning experiences/mistakes" in the same space as one $20,000 tractor, skid steer, etc lol. It would be far less of an issue if I knew a $25K...something, would work perfect and be a one time deal. But that's a lot of money for me to take a WAG on.

With the salt, or other things like it, it was more about saving money by buying in bulk along with making it more convenient to get home as opposed to slinging a bunch of individual bags in/out of the trunk of the car, and then cleaning out the salt residue so the trunk doesn't rot out,lol. I figured I could easily break it up onto two or three pallets worth as needed to get it off the truck bed. Same thing if I were to buy another pallet of cinder blocks, or something else. Splitting pallets on the flatbed is a heck of a lot easier than unloading 90 blocks off a bed that sits several feet off the ground.

I've already tested the loader on what's left of one of my parts trucks, and found it had zero problem lifting up one end of it, which will make getting it on the trailer when I'm ready to haul it away to the scrap yard MUCH easier. Picking up the rear end of my 2.5 ton International truck though...not so much, lol. I'd imagine that it would have been at least several thousand pounds of lift weight.

I did recently pick up a 3 point landscape rake, which incidentally has done a stellar job of pulling the weeds and brush out as I wanted, and also noticed that the steering has gotten a bit easier when it was up in the air. I can see where a box blade would be handy for final leveling and removing the lines left behind by the tines, though the rake has already made the property MUCH better looking just on it's own. I may be able to get by with the bucket as a sort of back blade for smoothing once I replace the trashed bushing on the hydraulic cylinder, as it now allows the bucket to bounce around too much creating a wash board effect.

I've been thinking about picking up a 55 gallon drum, fill it about 3/4 up with scrap steel bits & sand/dirt/rocks from the back 40, and welding some pins to it for the 3 point to use as a ballast box too. Would be a total cost of about $20...