Leveling Modern Ag Batwing

[matthew.maxwell2]

Matt,
A question that should have been asked is did this mower used to work and now suddenly doesn’t? If yes what changed? Hose break, cylinder leaking and repaired, etc.

I am wondering if the wheel lift cylinders are a master - slave system where the main lift cylinder rod end is connected to the wing lift cylinders blind or cap end. These require “phasing” and fixed cylinder sizes so the rod end volume of main lift is the same as the two wing lift cap end volume. Not a common type design but in theory if forces all three cylinders to move together.

You don’t need to connect the tractor to trace those lines.

Just picked it up at an auction, so I don't know much history on it. I did have to replace one of the gearboxes. I'll get some pictures of the house routing in a few minutes

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

Matt,
A question that should have been asked is did this mower used to work and now suddenly doesn’t? If yes what changed? Hose break, cylinder leaking and repaired, etc.

I am wondering if the wheel lift cylinders are a master - slave system where the main lift cylinder rod end is connected to the wing lift cylinders blind or cap end. These require “phasing” and fixed cylinder sizes so the rod end volume of main lift is the same as the two wing lift cap end volume. Not a common type design but in theory if forces all three cylinders to move together.

You don’t need to connect the tractor to trace those lines.

Not sure how much you can see from the pictures. The cylinders to list the wings are as simple as can be. One line from the tractor to lift each wing (retract the cylinder). No return, gravity down (extend the cylinder). Each on their own remote.
The lift/phasing cylinders are a bit more complicated. They make a loop around the the cylinders. I'm the from the tractor to the center cylinder, out the center cylinder to the right cylinder, out the right cylinder to left cylinder, and out of left cylinder back to the tractor on the other side of the same remote.

 

[leonz]

Just picked it up at an auction, so I don't know much history on it. I did have to replace one of the gearboxes. I'll get some pictures of the house routing in a few minutes

Good evening Mr. Maxwell,

The new ratchet jack is set at 11 threads the original ratchet jack is set at 7 threads.

 

[oldnslo]

Not sure how much you can see from the pictures. The cylinders to list the wings are as simple as can be. One line from the tractor to lift each wing (retract the cylinder). No return, gravity down (extend the cylinder). Each on their own remote.
The lift/phasing cylinders are a bit more complicated. They make a loop around the the cylinders. I'm the from the tractor to the center cylinder, out the center cylinder to the right cylinder, out the right cylinder to left cylinder, and out of left cylinder back to the tractor on the other side of the same remote.

Matt,
Pictures and your hose routing provides the required detail on how this lift system is designed to work based on the assumption plumbing and cylinders are as left the factory.


To raise mower:
Oil from tractor feeds blind end of center lift cylinder. As this cylinder extends the rod end oil is forced into the blind end of the right wing cylinder causing it to extend and lift. Oil from rod end of right wing cylinder is fed into blind end of the left wing cylinder causing it to extend and lift. Rod end of left cylinder goes back to tractor. Theory of this system is that all of the lift cylinder raise and lower the same amount keeping the deck level.

Problem with this type of master slave cylinder system is they can get out of phase for multiple reasons so the cylinders do not extend and retract fully. Typically there is a "rephasing" feature that allows you to get all of the cylinders fully extend or fully retracted. I do not know how the "rephase" is on this mower works but would suggest try raising and just hold the lever in raise to see if all the lift cylinders slowly fully extend.

If extending doesn't work try retracting or lowering and keep lever or valve in power down (lower) position to see if all the cylinders fully retract.

If neither raise nor lower rephase then you may have to contact dealer or factory to find out how to rephase those cylinders.


At present I suspect main lift hardly moves since both wing cylinders are partially extended.


Note: If any cylinders have been changed to different size from stock the system will not work properly. Reason being is that rod end volume of center lift must match blind end volume of right wing left. Right wing lift rod end volume must match left wing blind end volume.


Hope this makes sense and is a simple procedure to rephase the cylinders and get you back to cutting.

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

Matt,
Pictures and your hose routing provides the required detail on how this lift system is designed to work based on the assumption plumbing and cylinders are as left the factory.


To raise mower:
Oil from tractor feeds blind end of center lift cylinder. As this cylinder extends the rod end oil is forced into the blind end of the right wing cylinder causing it to extend and lift. Oil from rod end of right wing cylinder is fed into blind end of the left wing cylinder causing it to extend and lift. Rod end of left cylinder goes back to tractor. Theory of this system is that all of the lift cylinder raise and lower the same amount keeping the deck level.

Problem with this type of master slave cylinder system is they can get out of phase for multiple reasons so the cylinders do not extend and retract fully. Typically there is a "rephasing" feature that allows you to get all of the cylinders fully extend or fully retracted. I do not know how the "rephase" is on this mower works but would suggest try raising and just hold the lever in raise to see if all the lift cylinders slowly fully extend.

If extending doesn't work try retracting or lowering and keep lever or valve in power down (lower) position to see if all the cylinders fully retract.

If neither raise nor lower rephase then you may have to contact dealer or factory to find out how to rephase those cylinders.


At present I suspect main lift hardly moves since both wing cylinders are partially extended.


Note: If any cylinders have been changed to different size from stock the system will not work properly. Reason being is that rod end volume of center lift must match blind end volume of right wing left. Right wing lift rod end volume must match left wing blind end volume.


Hope this makes sense and is a simple procedure to rephase the cylinders and get you back to cutting.

Makes a ton of sense. I've been looking up rephrasing, and I have a few things to try. Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[leonz]

Good morning Mr. Maxwell,

If you look closely at picture 836 you can see where the right ratchet jack
is causing the rear wheel carrier to bind on the right side.

I neglected to mention this last evening and I apologize for not doing so.

The tie rod type of hydraulic cylinders on your mower allowed the designer/fabricator
to use a less expensive hydraulic cylinder for their intended use making for a more
cost effective design of mower.

The cylinder rod eye has internal female threads allowing for a greater flexibility
in the range of linear movement/extension to allow the cylinder and cylinder rod
eye to operate. The adjustable rod eye is held in place with a set screw that is
tightened against a nylon ball that is squeezed into the rod threads if my memory
of the design is correct to hold the rod in place

 

[dieselscout80]

I’ve got no input.

However, what are the pipe plugs on the trailering arms for the tires used for?

 

[leonz]

The weldments and pipe caps hold the compression springs tight against spring locators
that hold the springs in place for the double spindle legs to maintain ground pressure on
the wheel sets.

The raptor and the predator-omni were designed to have to have single acting cylinders not
double acting hydraulic cylinders.

Page 82 of the raptor and page 82 the predator owners manual illustrates how this is done with identical schematics.


The previous owner of this mower only made it worse for you :^((.

 

[oldnslo]

The weldments and pipe caps hold the compression springs tight against spring locators
that hold the springs in place for the double spindle legs to maintain ground pressure on
the wheel sets.

The raptor and the predator-omni were designed to have to have single acting cylinders not
double acting hydraulic cylinders.

For wing fold the cylinders are single acting not for wheel lift

Page 82 of the raptor and page 82 the predator owners manual illustrates how this is done with identical schematics.

If you study the parts schematic on page 82 they show cylinder 2, 3 & 4 as double acting plumbed in series.

Note: they do not state which cylinder is main lift, right nor do they state rod diameter so doing a little math I believe the cylinders are:
#2 main lift 3.5 bore x 1.3 rod
#4 right wing 3.25 bore x 1.25 rod
#3 left wing 3 bore x ?? Rod

The previous owner of this mower only made it worse for you :^((.

If previous owner changed cylinder sizes then yes the circuit will not work properly.

 

[oldnslo]

Makes a ton of sense. I've been looking up rephrasing, and I have a few things to try. Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it goes.

I think extend is phasing but again would not bet the farm on that. May have to hold in extend or raise for 30 seconds or more but you should be able to watch cylinders move. You can do this with tractor at idle or just above idle.

Rephase cylinders have a small passage that bypasses the piston when fully extended or retracted with more being extended.

 

[leonz]

If you follow the hose run on page 82 you see that part
number/hose 8/1 is connected with the tractor with one port.

The wing cylinders have 2 breather plugs in the base of the cylinder barrel which are part number 16/2

The wing cylinders have restrictor fittings on the rod side of the cylinders, they used an oil metering orifice
fitting in them it apparently.

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

Good evening Mr. Maxwell,

The new ratchet jack is set at 11 threads the original ratchet jack is set at 7 threads.

You are correct. I will make the exactly even before if do any mowing. I think I've pinpointed the bigger issue to phasing the lift cylinders.

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

I think extend is phasing but again would not bet the farm on that. May have to hold in extend or raise for 30 seconds or more but you should be able to watch cylinders move. You can do this with tractor at idle or just above idle.

Rephase cylinders have a small passage that bypasses the piston when fully extended or retracted with more being extended.

Found in the manual that rephrasing is done by fully extending by up to a minute. Tries that and still no difference. Starting to wonder if a passage is plugged or something

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

I think extend is phasing but again would not bet the farm on that. May have to hold in extend or raise for 30 seconds or more but you should be able to watch cylinders move. You can do this with tractor at idle or just above idle.

Rephase cylinders have a small passage that bypasses the piston when fully extended or retracted with more being extended.

Found in the manual the rephrasing procedure. Your are correct it is extending, but doesn't seem to make a difference. I think it's definitely the issue though because I can't get wing cylinders to fully retract. It's making me wonder if there is a blocked passage or something.

 

[Sportsman762]

Found in the manual that rephrasing is done by fully extending by up to a minute. Tries that and still no difference. Starting to wonder if a passage is plugged or something

The bore diameter of the second and third cylinder should be smaller than the bore diameter of the first cylinder in the circuit of rephasing cylinders. Can you measure the cylinder diameter and see if they are all the same. If they are all the same bore OD then someone has replaced the rephasing cylinders with standard ones as rephasing cylinders get smaller as you go down the line.

I had a friend who did that with a planter and we had to plumb the cylinders in parallel to get the planter to lift. Occasionally it would lift unevenly, but there was nothing we could do since we did not have the original cylinders.

Here is a photo showing how rephasing cylinders work. If they cylinders are the same size then the ones down the line will not extend / retract all the way as the butt end of the cylinder has less displacement than the rod end.

 

[oldnslo]

Found in the manual the rephrasing procedure. Your are correct it is extending, but doesn't seem to make a difference. I think it's definitely the issue though because I can't get wing cylinders to fully retract. It's making me wonder if there is a blocked passage or something.

Will the center lift cylinder fully extend or lift?

If not previous owner may have swapped out a cylinder for some unknown reason and like sportsman states it will not work properly then.

It can be made to lift lower by connecting all of wheel lift cylinders in parallel. I.e. connect all three blind ends together and to one of the lines going to the tractor. Connect all three rod ends together and to other line going to the tractor. Now they will all extend and retract but possibly at same speed and distance.

Again same as sportsman stated.

 

[Sportsman762]

Here is the two ways to hook up the cylinders. I think @oldnslo identified the OEM setup as rephasing. However if the cylinders have been replaced I would try plumbing them in parallel. The issue is that they might not lift/lower evenly as I had mentioned about my experience with a planter.

Below is a diagram I made. Please excuse my poor graphic skills.

The last resort option is to replace the wing cylinders with ratchet jacks and not be able to adjust wing height.

AgSmart Rachet Jack

Pin Hole - 1" pin size Min length 20" Max 28". 10,000 LB. push and 15000 LB. Pull. Replaces Woods 1005020.

www.qualityfarmsupply.com

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

The bore diameter of the second and third cylinder should be smaller than the bore diameter of the first cylinder in the circuit of rephasing cylinders. Can you measure the cylinder diameter and see if they are all the same. If they are all the same bore OD then someone has replaced the rephasing cylinders with standard ones as rephasing cylinders get smaller as you go down the line.

I had a friend who did that with a planter and we had to plumb the cylinders in parallel to get the planter to lift. Occasionally it would lift unevenly, but there was nothing we could do since we did not have the original cylinders.

Here is a photo showing how rephasing cylinders work. If they cylinders are the same size then the ones down the line will not extend / retract all the way as the butt end of the cylinder has less displacement than the rod end.
View attachment 3682133

The wing cylinders are smaller diameter than the center cylinder, but appear to be the same size. The first two cylinders in series (center and right wing) seem to phased correctly now, just the last cylinder (left wing) is still off.

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

Will the center lift cylinder fully extend or lift?

If not previous owner may have swapped out a cylinder for some unknown reason and like sportsman states it will not work properly then.

It can be made to lift lower by connecting all of wheel lift cylinders in parallel. I.e. connect all three blind ends together and to one of the lines going to the tractor. Connect all three rod ends together and to other line going to the tractor. Now they will all extend and retract but possibly at same speed and distance.

Again same as sportsman stated.

The center cylinder seems to extend and retract the entire way. I will plumb them in parallel if I have to.

 

[matthew.maxwell2]

Here is the two ways to hook up the cylinders. I think @oldnslo identified the OEM setup as rephasing. However if the cylinders have been replaced I would try plumbing them in parallel. The issue is that they might not lift/lower evenly as I had mentioned about my experience with a planter.

Below is a diagram I made. Please excuse my poor graphic skills.
View attachment 3682136

The last resort option is to replace the wing cylinders with ratchet jacks and not be able to adjust wing height.
View attachment 3682138

AgSmart Rachet Jack

Pin Hole - 1" pin size Min length 20" Max 28". 10,000 LB. push and 15000 LB. Pull. Replaces Woods 1005020.

www.qualityfarmsupply.com

I think your graphics are good! I think I'm going to plumb them in parallel before I try ratchet jacks. We'll see.