Lenar tractors!

JohnS · Nov 23, 2003

I agree with Buck. All the articles discuss automotive collaberation, not tractors. If Ford has no interest in tractors, (they don't sell any tractors, anymore, do they?) they probably are not forcing any particular quality control procedures at the tractor and tractor engine facilities. Eventually, there is the potential that the Chinese would implement similar procedures, given they recognize the benefit from the automotive venture. If Ford did decree new quality control at the tractor facilities, it shouldn't be hard for them to produce some document. It would be in their best interest to promote that. In the end, the proof will be in the product, not in any marketing literature. I put allot more emphisis on what owners have to say than any quality hype, or how many ISO compliant or certifications a company has.

PS: This is not to discredit Lenar tractors in any way. I have never touched one. The word of mouth I have heard, is they are a decent chinese tractor, on par with JM and DF.

Tractors4u · Nov 23, 2003

( I put allot more emphisis on what owners have to say than any quality hype, or how many ISO compliant or certifications a company has. )

I laugh everytime I see some product advertised as ISO 9001 certified. I work for an organization that is ISO 9001 certified and it doesn't necessarily make for a better product. It means you have procedures that you are supposed to follow. Once every year or two some outside company comes in and looks at your procedures and interviews a bunch of employees who have rehearsed canned comments about quality and such. The outside company collects there check for doing the certification and then tells the company how well they are doing and that they may retain there certification. I would rather a company spend their money on R&D than ISO.

JohnS · Nov 23, 2003

Brent, sounds like you were at the same audit I was! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Unfortunatly, some contracts require ISO cert on all major sub-contractors. It certainly doesn't mean you are selecting the better product. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Wan4me · Nov 24, 2003

ISO was started to create an international standard and it's intentions are good. I worked in the micro electronics industry for years and just so happen to have written about a dozen of our 2500 person units ISO procedures.

First of all each company is responsible for developing its own procedures and then implementing those procedures. We implemented very exactring standards like when working with mother boards, we needed to be grounded at all times, had the air kept at certain humidity, what types of materials could and could not be in the room(ESD issues), wearing smocks etc.... This was for the lab.

For HLDR(High Level Design Review) & LLDR's(Low Level Design Review) every engineer has a note book all inspectable by internal & external auditors. All emails pertinent to project are records that could be reviewed.

Action itmes are thoughrly followed through or it resulted in penizalation and our company fired people who did not take corrective action when they were notified of their errors.

Internal audits are done by company on a regular basis so that when the external audits come they are prepared and have all in order as required by their documents. This prepares engineers and gets them used to following the procedures.

I was an engineer(engineers hate ISO) who wrote documents on the processes, who did internal auditing on the group when we were small (less than a 1000 in our group) & a subject of an external audit by our auditing organization out of the Netherlands(brutal audit taking hours).

I am retired now for 1 year in Oct. but know ISO in and out and know that when it is implemented correctly then it is a great value for quality. Hey, janitors, secretaries(no offense to these careers) or any one else can be asked questions like what the company quality statement is and they have canned answers but when it gets to the design & QC of the product that is where it is relevant and important.

Not to knock any one but ISO certification for a company that makes broom handles is a little different than one who makes diesel engines, micro electronics or any other "engineered" product.

So, if your company is one that makes broom handles then your explanation is fine but if it is one that makes products that require real QC then please let me know who it is as I would rather buy from a company that does not laugh it off but takes it as the serious tool it is meant to be.

No offense intended but ISO has a definite purpose and when implemented properly it is a great value even if there are those out there trying to cheat the intended desire and implementation of the certification.

Tractors4u · Nov 24, 2003

Making broom handles? We are far from it. I work for NASA. When someone here was trying to convince me of the importance of ISO that used the French for an example. My response was "Oh the guys who just lost an Ariens rocket because it had the wrong software loaded?" And now look at us with the loss of a shuttle. I am not against procedures and the like, my problem is the system. Everyone thinks ISO is a panacea for all of our problems. We pay a company to come in and audit us. I'm sure there are some very stringent external auditors out there that would stick to their guns and do the audit right, but with this "customer is always right" attitude, who's is say that many companys get a free pass because they are writing the check.

JohnS · Nov 24, 2003

Spoken like a true process weeny! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Twenty years of engineering and following the processes you have outlined and more(long before ISO was the flavor of the month) does not garrentee a good product. I want engineers that are sharp and can come up with creative solutions, not excellent paper processors.

Tractors4u · Nov 24, 2003

Flavor of the Month, I thought we were the only one's who used that term. What about TQM and Continuous Improvement. Have you done those? How about Gung Ho? I need to become a snake oil salesman, I mean consultant. That is where the money is.

JohnS · Nov 24, 2003

Sorry, haven't Gung Ho'ed yet! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Six sigma and have a great day! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wan4me · Nov 24, 2003

Yes, a true process weenie /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and a UNIX geek /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif but that is why our company was and is very successful never missing analyst first call on earnings. I designed RAMS, ROMS, Sleep Crystals, Digital to analog converters, Oscillators, Shifters etc.......

If you have seen the phones that can take pictures on CDMA networks then email them then you have seen much of my design. As I said in this environment you need real process's and procedures as the cost can be 10's if not 100's of millions of dollars if you screw up and miss the window of opportunity.

In fact the Chinese engineers are some of the best. Our company put much time and effort into the Post & Telecom's in China so that we could recruit the best engineers the Chinese have to offer. I really feel that if the process are good and the engineers are good then you stand a better chance of getting a good or better product. I believe that ISO is great for the end user if used correctly.

I hate the procedures as it created much more work for me but it also in my opinion helped me to retire early. I hope that I have not offended but I think that ISO is a great benefit but as you guys pointed out it is also as much a marketing tool as it is a quality control.

I don't totally disagree with you but also don't discount the certifications.

Thanks

lwh · Nov 24, 2003

John, I agree. Ultimately quality only means something if it is found in the end product. So far a lot of bull and no facts supporting Lenar claims. I hope they are a superior product. If they are, others will compete and buyers are the winner. But as I asked earlier, if new quality control measures have been implemented, why can't they be explained?
Wan, being I too am an engineer, you sound to me like a marketing person.
By the way presumably Jinma factory meets ISO 9001 :
" Yancheng Tractor Factory lies at the seaside of the Yellow sea. It is one of the key enterprises specializing in manufacturing medium and small-sized tractors. And it is also a large enterprise of the State. In 1993, six enterprises of Yueda Group were integrated into Jiangsu Yueda Co., Ltd, a stock limited company, with the approval of the state and its stock was listed at stock market. And it has been approved by ISO 9001 quality system proof. "

Wan4me · Nov 25, 2003

No, as an engineer we could not stand marketing. They go out and promise the world to the customers with no technical knowledge and then come back and ask us if it can be done.

If we say yes, they say can you get it done in 3 months for a 9 month job. No, not marketing at all. I stayed in an office(not cubical, I was senior) and work. They golf, stay at nice hotels & eat $200.00 meals. I ate chocolate drank coffe & listened to my cd's while doing my designs and sim's.

Off topic, what type of engineer are you? Just curious as I still enjoy talking to other engineers.

Thanks

JohnS · Nov 25, 2003

and I don't totally disagree with you. You are just the first engineer I've heard of waving the ISO flag! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif From many lessons learned, from many projects, following process is not an indicator of why one project was a success. Not following process is used many times, for blame, on projects that were not as successful.

SPIKER · Nov 26, 2003

OK I say the send JOHNS a FEEE test tractor, let him use it and post his results!!!

NO JOHN DIDN'T PUT ME UP TO THIS! lol. HE does the CHINA tractor community a great service for maintaining his web site with updated info links ect. I think he would be a great person to convince and he's familair with JM and can easy get lots of people the info he felt was good, ok and if JOHN can't get time to try one out and post the results then I'll step up to the plate and pit one aginst my 284 just well, i can and I'll remain unbiased too! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ok I had my fun...

Mark M

MarkNHow · Nov 26, 2003

I thought this was a Chinese tractor forum not a brag about yourself forum.

The complaints seem to be about the attitude and the advertising more than the product itself. I visited the Lenar home page and some dealer sites. The home site says assets of 7 billion but they fail to mention that it is Yuan not US dollars. 100 US dollars = 830 Yuan. I was assuming this was an American site which seems misleading to me.

This is from 1 of Bens' post.
And the main objective seems to be exporting as many models as possible each year into the USA with little concern about improving quality or support, but that is my opinion from experience.
Jinma came out with an LE model which did come with improvements over the previous model.

This is from 1 of Bens' post.
Typical Chinese Tractor (Jinma, Shenniu, Taishan, etc.):
Your typical Chinese tractor is made in a 40 to 50 year old factory.
Jinma also has a new factory.

A Lenar site I visited said you won't find junk here that's why we don't carry Jinma. That's not the kind of advertising I'm going to buy from.

If it is true and they have Ford quality control that doesn't overly impress me. All you need to do is look in Consumer Reports.

I think they have the definitions of "confidence" and "arrogance" mixed up.

Anyway just my 2 cents worth.

Mark H

JCooper · Nov 26, 2003

It's amazing at all the different opinions people have about different things. I LOVE it....it's what makes this world go 'round.

I tend to adhere to the facts. The only fact that I know to be certain is that JMC (Jiangling Motors) is owned by Ford AND Isuzu. I also know that JMC makes our tractors. The best part is that JMC makes their own engines as well. I'm not sure what all other parts are interchanged between the tractors and cars such as alternators, staters, switches, etc. Bottom line, they are excellent machines. So as far as them being on "par" with JM.......I definitely don't think that's the case. These tractors don't leak, they start when you turn the key, and we just haven't had any problems with them.

I haven't owned the JM but I have seen them upclose. Side by side there's a world of difference in not only fit and finish but every part on the tractor. I'm not pushing one tractor over another........I'd recommend buying whatever tractor fits your pocketbook. Make smart buying decisions.

I'll try to post some pictures that give a little info on the auto plant and Jiangling (JMC) itself. Never posted a pic but I'm gonna try.

Durbob · Nov 26, 2003

I think when Buck called Bens bluff and asked him to produce some kind of documentation to show Fords involvement with the Lenar tractor and Ben hasn't shown any...well..to me that says it all. Also when Tractor Ernie tried to buy tractors from Ben, but he didn't have any and Buck had them in stock and was within a 100.00 dollars or so of Bens price. And Buck sells retail ...yet Ben claims to sell to dealers. That doesn't add up ,does it?

lwh · Nov 26, 2003

JCooper,
Just to clarify ownership, Ford has made an investment by purchasing around 30% of the Jiangling stock. Ford did a similar thing in this country and at one time owned a significant (but I believe less significant on % basis) part of Cummins Engines. For about 10 years I heard "Ford owns Cummins and blah, blah, blah". Of course, none of the versions of blah, blah, blah ever happened. So that's part of where I come from.
The other part: I tried not to be too blunt in my original post, but that didn't work. Over time I've read posts from Ben on other boards and have read the web pages from his organization. Not the way to win friends in my opinion.
And finally, my Jinma is a nice tractor. If Lenar is superior, I imagine it is frustrating for the folks who earn a living from them, to see Jinma outsell and be more talked about. But, most likely, venting doesn't actually sell tractors. And just to clarify, most of this rant is not directed at Cooper.

Wan, answer to your question is: mechanical

CooperTractors · Nov 27, 2003

I don't claim to know anything about tractors as I am here to learn. So....I can't be accused of confidence or arrogance by any stretch of the imagination.

However, I do trust the opinions and business practices of Cooper Tractors on all levels. It is the product itself that interests me, not the marketing strategies or personal nature of individuals.

I have read several posts requesting Fords involvement with JMC. Other than Fords own 2003 Plant Guide (located on their website), I am not sure what other "proof" is necessary.

If you'd like to review this guide, please go to:

http://www.ford.com/en/company/about/corporateCitizenship/principlesProgressPerformance/our-perspective/company-plant-locations.htm

Hopefully, this will end any controversy on the subject.

Have a happy Thanksgiving!!
Jacki
PS...I like Jacks Ribs...wet or dry...hot or mild.....they are the BEST!!

Tractors4u · Nov 27, 2003

Jiangling Motors Corp., Ltd.
Nanchang, Jianxi (People's Republic of China)
Products: Ford Transit, light trucks and TFR pickup trucks, Isuzu, and various components
Year Opened: 1997
Plant Size (sq. ft.): 103,000
Note: Ford has 30% equity



Does various components mean tractors?

JCooper · Nov 27, 2003

( Jiangling Motors Corp., Ltd.
Nanchang, Jianxi (People's Republic of China)
Products: Ford Transit, light trucks and TFR pickup trucks, Isuzu, and various components
Year Opened: 1997
Plant Size (sq. ft.): 103,000
Note: Ford has 30% equity



Does various components mean tractors? )

Yes, evidently it does. They purchased 30% of Jiangling. That means 30% of every move Jiangling makes.

This is like trying to defend my Wal-Mart stock....that would be one difficult task trying to prove to someone that, yes I own some of Wal-Mart but I don't own the pharmacy.........wait, I don't think my stock is even valid in the garden center. I sure hope I receive some of the dividends from the pet center. If I buy stock in the name "wal-mart" then it's wal-mart stock. I didn't just choose just the underwear department. LOL ;-)