Lenar tractors!

[JohnS]

I agree with Buck. All the articles discuss automotive collaberation, not tractors. If Ford has no interest in tractors, (they don't sell any tractors, anymore, do they?) they probably are not forcing any particular quality control procedures at the tractor and tractor engine facilities. Eventually, there is the potential that the Chinese would implement similar procedures, given they recognize the benefit from the automotive venture. If Ford did decree new quality control at the tractor facilities, it shouldn't be hard for them to produce some document. It would be in their best interest to promote that. In the end, the proof will be in the product, not in any marketing literature. I put allot more emphisis on what owners have to say than any quality hype, or how many ISO compliant or certifications a company has.

PS: This is not to discredit Lenar tractors in any way. I have never touched one. The word of mouth I have heard, is they are a decent chinese tractor, on par with JM and DF.

 

[Tractors4u]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I put allot more emphisis on what owners have to say than any quality hype, or how many ISO compliant or certifications a company has. )</font>

I laugh everytime I see some product advertised as ISO 9001 certified. I work for an organization that is ISO 9001 certified and it doesn't necessarily make for a better product. It means you have procedures that you are supposed to follow. Once every year or two some outside company comes in and looks at your procedures and interviews a bunch of employees who have rehearsed canned comments about quality and such. The outside company collects there check for doing the certification and then tells the company how well they are doing and that they may retain there certification. I would rather a company spend their money on R&D than ISO.

 

[JohnS]

Brent, sounds like you were at the same audit I was! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Unfortunatly, some contracts require ISO cert on all major sub-contractors. It certainly doesn't mean you are selecting the better product. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Wan4me]

ISO was started to create an international standard and it's intentions are good. I worked in the micro electronics industry for years and just so happen to have written about a dozen of our 2500 person units ISO procedures.

First of all each company is responsible for developing its own procedures and then implementing those procedures. We implemented very exactring standards like when working with mother boards, we needed to be grounded at all times, had the air kept at certain humidity, what types of materials could and could not be in the room(ESD issues), wearing smocks etc.... This was for the lab.

For HLDR(High Level Design Review) & LLDR's(Low Level Design Review) every engineer has a note book all inspectable by internal & external auditors. All emails pertinent to project are records that could be reviewed.

Action itmes are thoughrly followed through or it resulted in penizalation and our company fired people who did not take corrective action when they were notified of their errors.

Internal audits are done by company on a regular basis so that when the external audits come they are prepared and have all in order as required by their documents. This prepares engineers and gets them used to following the procedures.

I was an engineer(engineers hate ISO) who wrote documents on the processes, who did internal auditing on the group when we were small (less than a 1000 in our group) & a subject of an external audit by our auditing organization out of the Netherlands(brutal audit taking hours).

I am retired now for 1 year in Oct. but know ISO in and out and know that when it is implemented correctly then it is a great value for quality. Hey, janitors, secretaries(no offense to these careers) or any one else can be asked questions like what the company quality statement is and they have canned answers but when it gets to the design & QC of the product that is where it is relevant and important.

Not to knock any one but ISO certification for a company that makes broom handles is a little different than one who makes diesel engines, micro electronics or any other "engineered" product.

So, if your company is one that makes broom handles then your explanation is fine but if it is one that makes products that require real QC then please let me know who it is as I would rather buy from a company that does not laugh it off but takes it as the serious tool it is meant to be.

No offense intended but ISO has a definite purpose and when implemented properly it is a great value even if there are those out there trying to cheat the intended desire and implementation of the certification.

 

[Tractors4u]

Making broom handles? We are far from it. I work for NASA. When someone here was trying to convince me of the importance of ISO that used the French for an example. My response was "Oh the guys who just lost an Ariens rocket because it had the wrong software loaded?" And now look at us with the loss of a shuttle. I am not against procedures and the like, my problem is the system. Everyone thinks ISO is a panacea for all of our problems. We pay a company to come in and audit us. I'm sure there are some very stringent external auditors out there that would stick to their guns and do the audit right, but with this "customer is always right" attitude, who's is say that many companys get a free pass because they are writing the check.

 

[JohnS]

Spoken like a true process weeny! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Twenty years of engineering and following the processes you have outlined and more(long before ISO was the flavor of the month) does not garrentee a good product. I want engineers that are sharp and can come up with creative solutions, not excellent paper processors.

 

[Tractors4u]

Flavor of the Month, I thought we were the only one's who used that term. What about TQM and Continuous Improvement. Have you done those? How about Gung Ho? I need to become a snake oil salesman, I mean consultant. That is where the money is.

 

[JohnS]

Sorry, haven't Gung Ho'ed yet! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Six sigma and have a great day! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Wan4me]

Yes, a true process weenie /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and a UNIX geek /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif but that is why our company was and is very successful never missing analyst first call on earnings. I designed RAMS, ROMS, Sleep Crystals, Digital to analog converters, Oscillators, Shifters etc.......

If you have seen the phones that can take pictures on CDMA networks then email them then you have seen much of my design. As I said in this environment you need real process's and procedures as the cost can be 10's if not 100's of millions of dollars if you screw up and miss the window of opportunity.

In fact the Chinese engineers are some of the best. Our company put much time and effort into the Post & Telecom's in China so that we could recruit the best engineers the Chinese have to offer. I really feel that if the process are good and the engineers are good then you stand a better chance of getting a good or better product. I believe that ISO is great for the end user if used correctly.

I hate the procedures as it created much more work for me but it also in my opinion helped me to retire early. I hope that I have not offended but I think that ISO is a great benefit but as you guys pointed out it is also as much a marketing tool as it is a quality control.

I don't totally disagree with you but also don't discount the certifications.

Thanks

 

[lwh]

John, I agree. Ultimately quality only means something if it is found in the end product. So far a lot of bull and no facts supporting Lenar claims. I hope they are a superior product. If they are, others will compete and buyers are the winner. But as I asked earlier, if new quality control measures have been implemented, why can't they be explained?
Wan, being I too am an engineer, you sound to me like a marketing person.
By the way presumably Jinma factory meets ISO 9001 :
" Yancheng Tractor Factory lies at the seaside of the Yellow sea. It is one of the key enterprises specializing in manufacturing medium and small-sized tractors. And it is also a large enterprise of the State. In 1993, six enterprises of Yueda Group were integrated into Jiangsu Yueda Co., Ltd, a stock limited company, with the approval of the state and its stock was listed at stock market. And it has been approved by ISO 9001 quality system proof. "