Lack of flail mower development in US.

[MultiMow]

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Has anybody ever seen one of these? It's a Hustler mid-mount ZTR with a flail deck. I've only seen an Italian supplier.

Trattorino Scag Sabre Tooth Tiger 31 HP... a Montegranaro - Kijiji: Annunci di eBay

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Above, is a SCAG Turf Tiger with a Humus brand safety mulcher. I really dig this design for a rough cut deck. The blades are fixed, and the teeth are tipped in carbide. They produce less dust, finer clippings, and are able to grind away at larger woody material. The only drawback I can see, is they tend to clump in heavy/wet grass or finish mowing... but are capable of either.

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Here is a Grasshopper front mount ZTR with a Perruzzo flail deck, available through Iowa Farm Equipment. To my knowledge, it is the only ZTR flail mower available here in the states. These things are beasts in tall vegitation, and depending on choice of flail knives, can handle up to 2" diameter saplings (the cast hammer flails will handle more, but they have to cover their behinds on advertising). The shovel flails will handle most brush, AND leave a finish cut on turf.

The thing that gets me as to why the commercial market isn't buying into flail mowers, is productivity. I see video after video of these guys on YouTube, contracting lots that are overgrown and having to take three or four times as long to mow them... not including the cleanup from discharged clippings. Flail mowers are (for the most part) single pass solutions, and they process taller grass at a much faster forward speed. Flail mowers are also down discharge, which eliminates 90% of the cleanup.

I specialize in rough cut mowing. I haven't even begun to contract to municipalities for delinquent lots/etc... and I have plenty to keep me busy on the weekends.

The reason I'm posting this, is due to the diminishing support for my equipment. I run a Toro 325D 4wd, and recently added a flail mower cutting head. For those of you unfamiliar, here's a pic of a similar unit:



These decks are getting EXTREMELY hard to find... and the only mower available with one is a Grasshopper. Don't get me wrong, Grasshopper arguably makes some of the greatest ZTR mowers in the industry... but for my application, the Altoz TRX 660i fits my needs much better. The problem comes when trying to source a belt driven flail deck. You simply can't find them. The above mentioned Hustler ZTR conversion is the only one I've found.

Many property owners have also seen the light in flail mowers. A quick Google search yields an abundance of older front mounts on conventional garden tractors and riding lawn mowers, still used by their owners today.

Maybe you guys have more to contribute as to why flail mowers have all but fallen off the US market? I know they're slightly more expensive, and the market is small... but with the crowded market being what it is, and individual model market shares being so small to begin with... why haven't they returned?

A good diesel powered front flail mower with a set of tracks beneath it would be the king of farm mowers and long interval (tall growth) commercial applications.

Opinions and thoughts?

 

[TheMadOne]

Same reason reel mowers aren't really a thing here, I'd think. People settled into the blade style and that's all they really know. Kinda like how there aren't any 3 banger diesel cars in the US. They're a dime a dozen in Europe, but never came over.

 

[LD1]

Attachments don't work.

Regarding flails.....

For true rough cut, they are slower and much more maintenance intensive than a rotary cutter (aka bushhog).

For finish mowing, I don't see any real advantage over traditional blade type, but again much more expensive and maintenance intensive.

The only place a flail really shines, IMO, is stuff that's just a bit too much for a traditional zero turn, but still on the bottom end of what a bushhog is good at. IE, being a week or two late mowing your yard when you are used to doing it weekly.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

I've actually been thinking the same thing over the winter. Never looked into availability but was thinking a flail mower mounted on a Kubota F series would run circles around a 3 pt mounted mower. I also considered the possibility of converting a rear mount flail to front -- might be cheaper and easier than finding one. Many of the larger ones are convertible.

FYI, your attachment links don't work

 

[MultiMow]

Same reason reel mowers aren't really a thing here, I'd think. People settled into the blade style and that's all they really know. Kinda like how there aren't any 3 banger diesel cars in the US. They're a dime a dozen in Europe, but never came over.

I completely understand the lack of reel mowers in all but large estate and golf course markets. Have you ever had to maintain a commercial grade reel mower? Without the proper supporting equipment, manhours, and specially trained maintenance staff, they're a nightmare. Also, the occasional obstruction which would lead to a quick blade change in a rotary mower, can have HUGE consequences with a reel unit.

If it wasn't for golf courses and the most discerning estate owners, reel mowers would've disappeared long ago. Reel mowers are for one business model and one business model only... that being turf that demands supreme quality of cut, with a minimized risk of obstructions. A lot of golf courses have even abandoned reel mowers for rough mowers, converting to gang rotaries.

As for the 3 banger diesels, I have to agree... but the American love affair with power and throttle response has never been conducive to diesels. Now, with the tree huggers all-out war on diesels, there's virtually no hope.

I've said for a long time... if VW would turbo a 3cyl diesel to around 40hp and put it in something similar to the Ford city vans, they'd likely have the best chance. Honestly, you just can't get people to buy diesels here. Ask the average person about a diesel Camry, diesel VW Rabbit pickup, or Nissan diesel pickup... and they're lost.

Sadly, the unwarranted war on diesels in this country isn't helping our case either.

 

[Industrial Toys]

When I was looking for my first flail mower in the 80s, my Dad told me that equipment with a horizontal axis is more expensive. So why pay more, when all you want to do is knock down grass? Highways and municipalities used flails, I'm guessing mostly for safety reasons.

As for the post on VW. Thinking about it, I can't understand why their Diesels never made it into machinery. Then the "People" could have had not just their car, but a tractor too. They would have had to get rid of that STUPID timing belt though.

 

[LD1]

Flails for highway use is about the only time I see them used. Safety is a big factor as well as time not being of concern. They get paid by the hour not by the acre, so what's the rush. And why worry about expense. It's our tax dollars at work.

As a person who runs a small mowing biz, rough mowing 500-600 acres annually, flails just aren't feesable. I'd have to double my rates to account for how slow they mow (slower ground speed and smaller mower because they require more HP per ft to run) as well as maintenance costs.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Many municipal roadside jobs are done by tender, so time is important to the contractor, but I guess the equipment is written into the specs, so everyone is playing by the same rules.

Here they use Disk mowers quite a bit for roadside work.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

As a person who runs a small mowing biz, rough mowing 500-600 acres annually, flails just aren't feesable. I'd have to double my rates to account for how slow they mow (slower ground speed and smaller mower because they require more HP per ft to run) as well as maintenance costs.

I hadn't thought about it like that before. The part that had me thinking about it was that they are more compact. I can't see pushing a 6' rotary cutter on a F series where I could see it pushing a 6' flail

 

[MultiMow]

State cuts here have been increasingly contracted off. Aside from a handful of image conscious municipalities, cut quality isn't an issue, and neither is turf damage or the windrowing of rotary mowers... so I can see why rotaries win there.

Commercial mowers that handle more than just regularly maintained property, THAT is the niche that could really use flails... but there's only one supplier for the ZTR market, and they're not compatible with mid-mount power units.

Another great market is tree farms and vineyards. Ventrac has proven this. Their units are crazy expensive. So why are tree farms buying them? Simple. Packaging and maneuverability. The average tree farm can increase their yield by 20-50% by switching to a Ventrac, simply by reducing row spacing. Now, with the introduction of the Altoz TRX 660i with tracks and a rough cut deck, there's significant competition with decreased maintenance costs, lower fuel consumption, better maneuverability, easier serviceability, lower price point, and substantially higher productivity (about 300% over a comparable Ventrac with a field/rough mower)... all in a more compact package that is nearly 800lbs lighter.

I like the way the market is headed... but it seems so slow. For Pete's sake, Italy has outpaced us 100:1 on flail development... ITALY.

I'm not saying there's a huge market for flails. I do believe, however, that there is a substantial market to support development of units smaller than 3-point mounted implements. TriMax alone is proof of this. Their supremely overpriced FlailDeck series for front mowers sells enough to justify their $8,000 price point.

Perruzzo is importing through Iowa Farm Equipment, and seeing great results... but still, there's no mid-mount.

The Altoz track mower's rough cut deck is a solid unit... but in grassy or dead/dry growth over 2ft tall, you still have the same problem as all rotary decks... that being uncut material that requires you to go back over your work twice, killing productivity and efficiency.

I wouldn't dare argue the place for rotary mowers... it's just that they fall short in some areas that flails could solve for many viable applications.

Rotaries are great. They're simple, easily field servicable, and knock down grass/brush. Most rough cutting applications aren't sensitive to cut quality, windrowed clippings, damage and disease to the grass itself, etc... but there's several applications that are.

 

[MultiMow]

Deleted

 

[MultiMow]

I've actually been thinking the same thing over the winter. Never looked into availability but was thinking a flail mower mounted on a Kubota F series would run circles around a 3 pt mounted mower. I also considered the possibility of converting a rear mount flail to front -- might be cheaper and easier than finding one. Many of the larger ones are convertible.

FYI, your attachment links don't work

Indeed. That's why I run a Toro Groundsmaster with a front flail deck. I won't even begin to mention all the benefits. I'll never go back to tractor mounted attachments for mowing.

A couple Perruzzo units are bi-directional. I plan on buying an 8ft unit for my larger properties with less obstructions, and adapting it to my Toro 455D.

I just wish the U.S. has a decent mid-mount ZTR flail mower... preferably with tracks instead of tires, like the Altoz TRX. Wright mowers has a flail deck... but it's about the worst example I could ever find, so I hate to mention them. It has a rotor and flails, which is the only reason you could ever call it a flail mower. The capacity and finish is horrible,

I like the TriMax units, but if your power unit isn't an F-series Kubota, John Deere, or some other recently manufactured model that will cost you $40k, they won't drop their nose enough to even consider your business (or at least my area rep won't be bothered with such... "prude" is an understatement).

 

[LD1]

You are nuts and wrong.

I have yet to encounter anything I cannot bushhog or will choke a bushhog. So do idea what you are talking about there.

Less maintenance.....Get off your high horse and stop preaching. Bushhoggings are way less maintenance intensive. Just what maintenance do you think a bushhog requires. PTO shaft and slip clutch maintenance would be the same. (But you'd have to do it twice as often on a flail since it mows half as fast). Check gearbox oil once a year, sharpen blades every 100 or so acres. Which is a 15 min job not a all day job.

Flails have belts, extra bearings, knives and hangers, etc etc.

I understand the advantages of a flail. Cut quality, better clipping dispersion, safety, etc. But you ain't fooling anyone with BS claims like they are less maintenance than bushhogs.

And companies are all about profit. If this "market" were there and flails in demand as you so claim, companies would be taking advantage.

All these great ideas you have that you think there is this huge market base for, why arent you going into mass production.

Let's stick to the facts. Flails cost more ( more complex to manufacture, more moving parts, less demand). Flails are slower than a rotary given like conditions and equal HP. Flails are more costly and time consuming to maintain. Flails are safer. Flails leave a better cut quality. Flails mulch up the clippings smaller and allows them to break down quicker resulting in a healthier and better looking end result. That's pretty much it.

I'll make you a deal. You buy me a flail mower of your choice for my mx5100. Probably a 6'. And I'll give all my customers the option of getting cut with my rotary for my formal rate, or I can charge double to do it with the flail and in turn for them spending 2x as much, they will get better cut quality, no windrows, and less likely for be to sling a rock at their house (which I'm insured for anyway).

And at the end of the year, if I have more customers request the flail over by woods ds96, then I'll buy the cutter off of you for 200% of what you paid. But if more request the woods ds96, i get to sell it for whatever I can get.

 

[MultiMow]

Deleted

 

[MultiMow]

This is the Hustler ZTR with flail deck:

 

[MultiMow]

This is the fixed blade mulcher by Humus:

 

[MultiMow]

This is the Humus Safety Mulcher for SCAG Turf Tiger ZTRs:

 

[MultiMow]

Sorry for taking so long to get those up. It wouldn't let me edit the original post, as it said "Attachments have been disable for this section. You can post photos in the comments section below as normal attachments" ...or something to that effect.

 

[MultiMow]

I hadn't thought about it like that before. The part that had me thinking about it was that they are more compact. I can't see pushing a 6' rotary cutter on a F series where I could see it pushing a 6' flail

You're right. You wouldn't want 6-8ft of rotary deck out front of a commercial mower frame. That's why they make flail decks for them. They're effective, lighter, more compact, more maneuverable, and have a high degree of success in the European market.

To my knowledge, the following suppliers are all that's available to us here in the states, and aside from the Perruzzo offering for the Grasshopper front mount ZTR, they're light duty units are all geared toward the front mount tractors you speak of (Kubota and John Deere F series, etc.). They are:

-Vrisimo (I think that's how you spell it)

-Perruzzo

-Trimax

There is another manufacturer who makes one for Wright brand ZTRs, but again... 'til they present a better product, I won't even consider them.

Trimax is biased more toward equal quality finish mowing as well as rough. They're premium quality, have exclusive options and adjustments, and also command a PREMIUM price tag.

Perruzzo has nearly the same finish capability with the right flail selection, but doesn't have all the fancy hardware that most flail users wouldn't require... at about 10-25% less cost (depending on options). They also seem to process the really tough stuff (5-7ft tall vegetation) much better than the Trimax.

Vrisimo is the more rugged purpose built rough mower of the three, at about the same cost as the Perruzzo.

Basically, if you're focused on finish cutting with some added rough cut capability, buy the Trimax. If you want a machine with the broadest application range, go with the Perruzzo. If you want a tank of a unit and are only brush mowing... try the Vrisimo.

 

[moriboy]

I have a Landpride 4188. The reason I bought it was for maneuverability and the mulching it does when cutting in heavily forested areas. It works great for my application and I'll probably never use my 8FT rotary again.