L4610 with a wounded paw.

   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #1  

patrickg

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2001
Messages
1,388
Location
South Central Oklahoma
Tractor
Kubota Grand L4610HSTC
My Firestone Industrials are so new (how new are they?) They are so new that the little rubber thingies that bristle on new tires are still there, even on the tread (57 hrs). The left rear is punctured near the center of the tread pattern but not through a lug, between lugs. It could have been a beer bottle (ought to be open season on literers) or a cut off sapling stob. I try to cut them high enough off the ground so they can be driven over but the uneven ground makes it pretty hard at times. Due to uneven terrain I didn't notice immediately. Anyway, I walked to the shop and got a truck and tools and went back and jacked her up and pulled the wheel. Heavy sucker, whew, not fun in mid 90 degree High humidity hot sun situation. Couldn't pick it up and put it in truck. Tried a block and tackle but broke a defective rope also used as multi part wasn't long enough. Went back for trailer (with ramps) and used trucks winch to pull wheel and tire up ramp. Of course this is a holiday and NO ONE is open for a repair. (Narrative romance story mode off)

Is there anything to do to make tires less vulnerable? Are there more puncture resistant tires? I would rather buy yet another set of new tires or anti puncture tire accessory if it would confer puncture free performance. I need to be able to go for the gusto with a bit more impunity.

TIA for any leads.

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #2  
Take a look at: http://www.arnconet.com/products/flatindex.html.

Their product is pretty expensive. I was quoted $150 each for my front tires and they gave me a guestimate of $500 for each of the rear tires. Add dismounting/mounting, tax and transportation and the total would be close to $1500. Of course, you're getting ballast, too.

Matthew
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #3  
$150 per front tire sounds about right to me. I had the front tires on a Ford Jubilee (Ag Ribs) filled with foam for $135 about two years ago. I don't have any hazards on my place, but several years ago I took my tractor to my Dad's place in Denton, TX and he has a lot of mesquite brush which has thorns from 1" to 2" long. While I was mowing for him, I got my tires full of thorns. No punture seal was good enough to permanently repair the leaks and filling the tires with air became a weekly chore. I went with the foam fill, and quit worrying about flats on my front tires. For the rear tires, the foam is just too expensive in my estimation; however, I think if I was having a constant problem, I might give it serious consideration. After taking my tractor back to my property, I got new rears installed and I haven't punctured them yet. I also have a TC45 NH and I'd hate to think replacing a rear tire on it. I don't have ballast, so I should be able to lift my front tires, but I don't think I would want to roll the rear tires empty without help. I'm pretty sure your L4610 has similar sized tires, but I'm guessing they are loaded. After replacing 3 of 4 rusted-out rims on my Ford Jubilee, I just could not bring myself to load my TC45's R4s. The foam would add some weight, but probably only half as much as liquid ballast or even less. Oh well...I'm rambling again./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

JimI
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #4  
Patrick,

You might want to take at look at the tire guards available at http://www.gempler.com/. Click Tires, then under preventive maintenance, Tire Guards. These are heavy rubber liners that are installed inside of your tire along with tubes to help prevent flats. They also have both tire reliners and tire spot reliners, used to repair and salvage damaged tires.

DFB

18-30366-dfbsig.gif
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#5  
One of the repair shops that I didn't employ due to their having several employees missing (actually one was closed en mass for vacation and three others had two or more workers missing so I went for a short drive 25 mi and the recommendation of a trusted source) Anyway, the one shop mentioned that they could F I X the problem but I wouldn't like the price (foam fill). I didn't ask. I casually worked the foam fill advantages into a conversation with my budget analyst but when I mentioned the price I was advised to go for the repair. No change of heart after getting $50 repair ticket.


Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Yeah, pretty good site Gempler's. Didn't know about them. They have an insert just 0.1 inch smaller than my tire size. I sent in email to find out if that would be "good enough. I think my budget analyst could see the cost/benefit ratio of this method vice the foam fill. I suppose putting tubes in such a slow speed tire shouldn't cause overheating problems (I hope). Any experts out there wana comment on putting tubes in tubeless tractor tires?

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #7  
Tubes in tubeless tractor tires? I had tubes put in the fronts to help control leaks (1/2 inch 3 corner tears aren't leaks). I might not have gotten the flat if there had been no tube in the tire.

If you were getting your tires loaded with calcium chloride the first step would be to put tubes in the tires. The rims would last about 10 days without. Of course it would take a lot of high speed mowing to heat up all that calcium.

I doubt that tubes would cause a heat problem, but they aren't a panacea.

Matthew
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #8  
Well Patrick this must be the month for wounded paws. Put a stump through my right front tire. I just went over a 100 hours. Took it to get repaired and they patched the tire and put in a new tube. I'll proberly replace the tire this fall before snow season since the FEL get's alot more work in the winter. I'll also buy a higher rated ply tire. Being new at this I never thought to check the ply rating. I can get a new tire with a 6 ply rating for 87.00 and I'm going to check on a tire liner too!!! Another thing I had never heard of. Thanks to everyone who replied. My tractor education continues!!!/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Take care,
Al
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Matthew, My Kubota came with tubeless tires (in the rear, I never actually checked the front). The Kubota manual gives the directions for mixing and putting calcium chloride solution in the rear tires and I don't recall any thing about tubes being mentioned. I will be going to my dealer in a little while as he just called to say my set of quick disconnects just came in (so I can make my own implements to replace the FEL bucket or palet blades. I will ask about this issue. I sure don't want to ruin the wheels.

I think the specific heat of water and the ratio of water to CaCl is such that the water would be the big heat absorber, not the CaCl. I agree, it isn't likely I would have to warn any but the nearest neighbors regarding the danger of a steam explosion from me overheating the tires.

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #10  
A few years ago my father was working deep in his woodlot with his 8N when one of the rear wheels decided to part company with its rim. The tube in his loaded tire had decided that it didn't want to play anymore and had leaked Calcium Chloride solution into the cavity between the tube and the rim. Corrosion ensued. It cost him plenty to have a new, loaded wheel bushwacked in to get his tractor out.

I've also seen rims with patches welded here and there (typically involving relocating the valve stem. CaCl + H2O is very corrosive. I wouldn't consider using it without tubes

Matthew
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#11  
I forgot to mention: My neighbor (the really good one not the jerk) had two tractors go down on the 4th. I couldn't get any sympathy from him. He too got a flat while brush hogging and on tractor two a failed tie rod end. Of his three, the newest is over 30 yrs old.

It must be something about working on a holiday. WE GOT TO QUIT THAT!!!

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Thanks for the additional comments, Matthew. I was aware of the nature of CaCl but assumed (and you know what that does) that there must be a coating inside the wheel for that. I will be leaving in 5 min to go to dealer. we will discuss this, you betcha. This is the first and only tractor I have ever driven. They treat me like I knew something, they shouldn't. Every little bit I learn is a big percentage of the total 'cause the total is so small.

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #13  
It's not like you have much of a choice when you have a "real" job. I swear that I'd die if I didn't have a "real" job to go to so I can rest up from the weekends/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

So that would be four tractors down on the Fourth: his two, yours and mine.

Matthew
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #14  
FWIW, I've discussed loading the tires on my tractor with my service dealer. His attitude has been to give everything a try before loading the tires. He says that if I can do everything I need to do without loading, then I'm ahead of the game. I've been following his advice and haven't found reason to doubt him.

He says the same thing about chains in the snow. He figures that my oversized turf tires, snowblower and MFWD should be able to handle everything but ice. My experience is that _nothing_ handles ice.

Matthew
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Matthew, et al, We just got back from the Kubota dealer where we discovered the parts that came in are the wrong thing. Seems two Kubota guys didn't really understand what I wanted but ordered what Kubota had, so it was the tractor side of the quick disconnect coupler for the FEL rather than the bucket/fork lift blade side (which is apparently not sold by Kubota).

Anyway, we discussed the most experienced guys knowledge of brush hogging, tire punctures, liquid in tires, tire weights, 3pt weights, etc. Seems that Kevin of Chaprell Dodge/Kubota in Ada, OK financed a good part of his college education by contract brush hogging ( with a 21 ft brush hog with 3 blades) He got paid by the acre + client paid for tire repair. He's been there done that.

He says that with good paint intact inside the wheels that corrosion is not a problem. Putting liquid in tubes is not a problem. If you want to be super careful you can coat the inside of the wheels with the DIY Rhino Lining stuff. You can get into trouble with anti-freeze (enviro hazzard), local tire shop has been forbidden to handle tires with liquid fill inside the city limits, and it is expensive and a hassle if you get a puncture. He says wheel weights do the same thing with no enviro hazzard and a 3ph counter weight is a fine thing as well, maybe a couple, one near your 3ph weight limit and one 1/2 to 2/3 of that if you want something lighter for less demanding jobs. He cautions that you should not extend the 3ph points of the weight to the rear but have the CG of the weight as close to the back of the tractor as is practical.

He mentioned the reason tires began to be filled in the first place was 2 wd farm tractors pulling plows. They needed more traction not a counter weight. Wheel weights are more for traction than a counter weight but give fair counter weight action. 3ph weight is a counter weight with a bit better leverage than wheel weights or liquid fill and can be a DIY project much cheaper than buying wheel weights. He sells wheel weights but just told me the info that indicated that they were not a good choice for my application. I like it when I find good honest folk.

He said that in agricultural applications he has seen tires in use down to 2 ply and that if he himself were upgrading from 6 ply it wouldn't be to 8 ply but 10 or 12. He concurs that the inserts with tubes (no problem adding tubes to tubeless tires) will stop tread punctures but that in brush hogging ahout 10% or so of punctures are in the side wall and not prevented by inserts. Foam fill doesn't care where the tire is punctured. In discussing the economics he pointed out that his dad's 100+ hp PTO tractor has over 3000 hours on the original tires which have about 25% of tread left but that it rarely sees pavement mostly just dirt, sand, and gravel.

Given the likely life of my tires, perhaps I need to readdress this issue with my budget analyst. Even $1500 over 3000 hours is only $0.50 per hour for essentially complete flat protection. AAA roadside service were it available for tractors would still entail delays, inconvenience, and being stranded a good walk from civilization in the heat and bugs. Gotta give this some thought.

About traction on ice. You can put ice studs, not the passenger car tungsten studs but the ice pick looking studs used in ice racing on your tires and get better traction than you would get on dry pavement. Probably would require tubes and the inserts to protect tubes from back side of studs.

And finally, whew... Encouraging recycling versus litering. I get a lot of no deposit no return beer bottles
A N D a lot of paper and styrofoam containers, thanks to the convenience stores about a mile to a mile and a quarter away. I wish I could positively ID the source, I'd give them back. Considering roadside video surveillance coupled with phone calls from a cooperative sherrifs deputy. One of my least favorite things in these parts is litter and it isn't just beverage containers but includes couches, refrigerators, and on and on. So far not along my hwy frontage but nearby in several locations. Still think a bounty on literrers is a viable approach.

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #16  
Wow, thanks for the extensive treatise. I didn't know about the studs for tires, but I would imagine that getting them would put me into having a winter set of tires as well as the turfs. Chains would be cheaper, but ...

There is one more point on the foam filled tires. They can't be removed with tire irons. When the time comes to get new tread, you can either have them retreaded on the rims (if retreading is affordable in your area and the carcass is safe) or you have to have the old tire cut off the rims, which adds to the expense. Retreading isn't really an issue for me as I expect that dry rot will claim the tires before tread wear does. That's what happened on my Cub Cadet 147. After 28 years the factory tires turned into air filters. They still had about 60% tread.

I've used both my backhoe and box blade as counterweights for the FEL. On my steep slopes, the backhoe is too much as the tractor tends to want to get the front wheels off the ground when starting upslope with an empty bucket. The boxblade isn't enough when trying to dump a full load downslope. The tractor stays safe, but the bouncing is disconcerting, at best. Adding weight to the front tires is appealing as I've had things hanging from the backhoe that have lifted the fronts off the ground (see attachment). That's the granit billet that caused me to get the flat. The front tires are just touching as the backhoe had relaxed enough to touch the ground as well. The door I placed it in front of is the one in the photo.

One of the reasons I was looking at filling my tires was for side to side stability on my slopes. CaCL+H2O fill lowers the CG of the whole system because the tops of the tires are filled with air. What I've been finding is that my pucker factor tolerance is far more sensitive than a tiltmeter/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. I've been really unhappy in situations in which the tractor was quite stable.

AS far as littering goes, I live in a very small town (2300) which has no convenience store, grocery store, pizza shop etc, but my parcel is within two house lots (450 feet) of the town transfer station (use to be a dump). For the last two years the bridge on the other side of the transfer station has been out so all of the traffic headed there went by my house. You can imagine what I've found on the side of the road. The bridge is open now and most of the traffic uses that approach so things have gotten better for me and worse for my further neighbors.

Matthew
 

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   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#17  
Matthew,

We have had the "rot off before wearing out" problem on many wheeled vehicles incl Mercedes sedans, dune bugies, motorhomes etc. I have regroovable 19.5 Michelins on my Ram 3500. 50,000 on them and if wear were linear (it isn't) they'd go well over 250,000. I unfortunately expect them to rot off before being regrooved for additional miles. At least with foam, sidewall crazing from age-ozone near the rim won't leak air.

Dry rot: Forget Armorall and 303 protectant. Check with Camping World. They sold (I bought) sun guard stuff for tires. Comes in can like brush on paint. Really protects against UV and ozone. Don't know if they still sell it. Wasn't cheap but seems to be working. Worth it if your tires are expensive but rot before they wear out.

The heaviest and longest implement I have is a super HD 6 ft brush hog. It barely kept me from taking a nose dive on level ground unloading 200 6 ft T posts. I SHALL make a 3ph counterweight like the guy posted pix of in the projects section.

3ph counterweight has better leverage so is better counterweight for FEL even with less pounds and the CG can be even lower than a 75% or even less fill.

Patrick
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw. #18  
<font color=blue> you can coat the inside of the wheels with the DIY Rhino Lining stuff.</font color=blue>

I'll have to call my local Rhino Lining dealer. I had no idea they had a DIY product. I've been thinking of taking my snowblower chute down and having the inside sprayed. Can they put down a smooth finish? (or more importantly, can I?).

Matthew
 
   / L4610 with a wounded paw.
  • Thread Starter
#19  
W H O A, Easy there big fella, I'm sorry, I meant "rhino lining" as in facial tissue NOT "Rhino Lining" as in Kleenex. I meant some generic Rhino Lining like product. The diy product isn't Rhino Lining brand as far as I know. Don't know about using this stuff in an appliaction where you want Teflon (there I go again) like smoothness. I've never seen a bed liner that was intended (or wanted to be smooth). The makers/applicators brag on the non skid traction their products provide.

I suppose you want the snow to slide off easily and not stick. You need something else I think. Powder coat can be quite smooth and durable. Powder coating is also available as diy equipment and supplies but you need an oven or other means of baking it on and your part might not fit in a regular oven. Some guys buy a used range or oven for little to nothing just to bake powder coatings.

Maybe a good epoxy paint job carefully applied would be the most cost effective diy SLICK coating. After it is well cured and between uses, wax the surface.

Anybody? What is a cheap, durable, and really slick coating to use with snow?

Patrick
 
 

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