Kubota Tier 4 Engines

[Kubotafan]

What are the pro and cons on the tier 4 engines? I understand they are more expensive but are there any practical benefits besides supposedly cleaner air? Do they use more or less fuel? Etc.... I am sure someone could give some information that many of us would find informative. Thanks in advance.

 

[Texas Fella]

It really depend. Speaking for Kubota engines, the fuel consumption is basically a wash. It takes more fuel to burn the DPF, however, the addition of electronic engine control and tighter tolerances create a more fuel efficient engine. Again, in the end, basically even. On most models, the addition of the electric components (engine ECU) for the common rail engine allow the unit to improve its torque curve and make some adjustments to itself based on varying conditions like load and engine temperature. It also allows for more accurate monitoring of the engine parameters like temperature, rpm, etc. I am not saying any of this in necessary worth the cost, but it is a benefit, not matter how small.

The major con is the price. Some people site the additional electronics on board (as a con), but we (the entire industry) have had electronics on tractors for decades and have had very little problems with them holding up in the "real world". In fact, most "electronic" issues have been caused by poor planning on the part of the manufacturer, not an issue with the electronics themselves. Or at least that has been my experience.

I hope this helps give you a little bit more info. Enjoy!

 

[houstonscott]

High pressure direct injection will have some very good effects. They make more power, use less fuel, start easer, run smother, are quieter, don't smoke, and are much cleaner. While EGR might require some added maintenance and AGblue some top off now and then those systems are not complicated or hard to maintain. In the end those parts might be significantly cheaper then mechanical fuel injectors or a main governor. HS

 

[The Fred]

AGblue some top off now and then those systems are not complicated or hard to maintain. In the end those parts might be significantly cheaper then mechanical fuel injectors or a main governor. HS

I will disagree here. Particulate filter is around $1,400, CAT is another $1,200 (it was covered in another thread). Adblue system will add significant costs over earlier machines that have NO exhaust emissions, the electric pump that adds urea into the exhaust is almost $1,000 on a new VW. About $4,000 dollars has been added to these new machines in BS and in 30 years WHO is going to support these subsystems when Kubota turns these parts into obsolescence? Yup most likely nobody.

Your Ford 8N has parts available over the counter at many parts places, so does Deere, Case, IH many others. It's called planned obsolescence in this new world.

Cleaner air is a nice benefit, start these new machines cold in your living room if you choose and they run nicely and don't smoke...at what cost? Cold starting will also be a benefit, new TDIs start just fine down to -20f with no heaters.

I see VW TDIs with exhaust issues and it's easy to dump 4 grand into a new exhaust. I'm not sold on it yet and neither should you but if you voted for clean air then be prepared to pay for it.

Fred

 

[Kubotafan]

I know some new diesel trucks (GM and maybe others) have a tank for a fuel additive which is burned with the fuel (or somewhere in the system). Is this needed with these new engines? You can see I am not a mechanic but have lots of questions!

 

[The Fred]

As far as I know the smaller tractors do not have urea (Adblue) yet. They have a catalytic converter and a Diesel particulate filter.

Plumber friend of mine has a 2010 Mercedes Sprinter van and within 1 month of the purchase the complete urea tank and subsystem had to be replaced as everything inside corroded badly. A year later the EGR valve went and the dealer told him that repair alone was $1,000 dollars. Both were covered by warranty of course.

I think for 10-15 years these tier 4 machines will be fine but what about down the road 30-50 years? I still run a 1958 machine and can buy parts to repair it.

Fred



Fred

 

[art]

With the diversifications of manufacturers we sell it is interesting as to what has had to be done to clean up the exhaust on the different designs of engines.

Most all direct injection engines have gone for def fluid to have a gain in the clean air as well as they were able to advance the timing after tier 3 where they retarded it to clean so fuel economy has been improved. On the indirect injection they have gone with the converters and was able to meet requirements.

 

[BeezFun]

What's next? An electric powered tractor, ...?

That's actually a good idea. I don't drive my tractor very far from an electrical outlet, it would be easy to keep it charged. No preheating, no fuel system, no expensive emissions devices, weight is a benefit so the heavier the battery the better.

 

[MHarryE]

Different companies have different methods of getting there. Under 37 HP there is almost no change. 37 - 75 HP Kubota reached Tier 4 interim with EGR like my L5740. Over 75 Tier 4 interim and 37 - 75 Tier 4 final Kubota has hone to a DPF along with the cooled EGR. Testing shows the DPF will go at least 3,000 hours before cleaning and there are shops all over that now clean DPFs. I haven't seen the charts on the Tier 4 final Kubota tractor engines but they are direct injected vs indirect injected and comparing their Tier4 interim engines the direct injected (not used in their tractors) got about 20% better fuel economy based on pounds per HP-HR. The M135 GX is the only Kubota for which I have seen a Nebraska test that could be compared with the previous version M135 and the economy numbers were so close they were within measuring error. The tractors do cost more but most come with more features than just the new engine. For instance the M135GX has a 24 speed transmission vs an 18 on the M135, plus it has a much roomier cab. As for filter and other parts costs - companies are required to warrant all emissions components for 5 years or 3,000 hours on tractors over 50 HP regardless of the basic warranty. Will the parts be available in the future? Time will tell but John Deere advertises it sells parts for tractors built in 1927. AGCO bought several companies (white tractor including Minneapolis-Moline and Oliver plus the entire Massey-Ferguson/Massey Harris lines because in service parts there is money).

 

[ericher69]

As far as I know the smaller tractors do not have urea (Adblue) yet. They have a catalytic converter and a Diesel particulate filter. Plumber friend of mine has a 2010 Mercedes Sprinter van and within 1 month of the purchase the complete urea tank and subsystem had to be replaced as everything inside corroded badly. A year later the EGR valve went and the dealer told him that repair alone was $1,000 dollars. Both were covered by warranty of course. I think for 10-15 years these tier 4 machines will be fine but what about down the road 30-50 years? I still run a 1958 machine and can buy parts to repair it. Fred Fred

Oh Fred,

Don't you know anything made these days is NOT meant to last more than 10yrs. Forget 30-50yrs

 

[dstig1]

It really depend. Speaking for Kubota engines, the fuel consumption is basically a wash. It takes more fuel to burn the DPF, however, the addition of electronic engine control and tighter tolerances create a more fuel efficient engine. Again, in the end, basically even. On most models, the addition of the electric components (engine ECU) for the common rail engine allow the unit to improve its torque curve and make some adjustments to itself based on varying conditions like load and engine temperature. It also allows for more accurate monitoring of the engine parameters like temperature, rpm, etc. I am not saying any of this in necessary worth the cost, but it is a benefit, not matter how small.

The major con is the price. Some people site the additional electronics on board (as a con), but we (the entire industry) have had electronics on tractors for decades and have had very little problems with them holding up in the "real world". In fact, most "electronic" issues have been caused by poor planning on the part of the manufacturer, not an issue with the electronics themselves. Or at least that has been my experience.

I hope this helps give you a little bit more info. Enjoy!

I'm going to disagree there. My cousin was an engineer at Cummins for many years. He was griping about the emissions regs a few years back. He said - with gas engines, emissions and fuel economy move hand in hand to some degree (until you get too crazy), but on diesels they run counter. You raise emissions standards and it hurts diesel fuel economy. No way around it. His words not mine. There is lots of expensive add-on equipment that was noted in the rest of this thread that does NOTHING for the engine but clean the exhaust. Nothing wrong with cleaning the exhaust, but you pay dearly for it. It does sound like they have improved the fuel usage for regens over the years, but it still uses fuel for "non productive" uses - it doesn't help power the tractor, just burns off the particulate filter. Like another poster noted - if you want cleaner and cleaner air, this is what you have to do, but it is not free, either in equipment or usage costs.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Does reducing emissions create cost. On the one hand it does but only if one is going to overlook the cost of emitting. To put it into graphic terms, does it cost money to dispose of my household garbage properly? Yes, it costs money. Is tossing my garbage onto my neighbor's land a reasonable alternative. Don't think so....

One point regarding Tier 4 that has not been mentioned is that the electronic systems require the specified amount of clean air and fuel. If you allow your filters to become clogged, the electronic systems will compensate by reducing power output of the engine. One more good reason to do maintenance on your unit.

 

[The Fred]

Testing shows the DPF will go at least 3,000 hours before cleaning and there are shops all over that now clean DPFs.

Mharry Your posts are always very informative thank-you. So when these DPFs get cleaned where does the soot from them end up? In the landfill maybe? So we transferred the particulates from the air to the ground?

Curious Fred

 

[Recoveryhill]

They just shut down out last coal fired generating plant in Ontario. STUPID, STUPID politicians!

I was on Pictou Island in the Northumberland Straights (Nova Scotia) a couple of years ago. Many of the Spruce trees were dead, a problem I saw elsewhere in the Maritimes. I asked if it was an insect problem and a knowledgable local said no, "It's acid rain from coal plants in the Mid-West. You can't have your cake, and eat it too.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Testing shows the DPF will go at least 3,000 hours before cleaning and there are shops all over that now clean DPFs.

Mharry Your posts are always very informative thank-you. So when these DPFs get cleaned where does the soot from them end up? In the landfill maybe? So we transferred the particulates from the air to the ground?

Curious Fred

Neither I nor anyone else breathes landfill dirt, a reasonable depository for carbon particles. How about I burn a pile of Poison Ivy brush upwind of your house? It's the same concept when you involve hundreds of thousands of engines emitting fine carbon particles that become trapped in your lungs, and the lungs of your children. We haven't even discussed NOx which is emitted along with carbon particles and have proven to be a cause of cancer.

"Oh, it's just a tractor." 25% of NOx and carbon is created by off-road vehicles and a poorly maintained diesel engine with no controls can emit up to 8 tons of it annually.

It's not a conspiracy, it's simply an effort to measure the true cost of pollution and take steps to prevent it. This effort will always come with cost to the unit creating the pollution. It just transfers that cost to the machine, from the Oncologist.

 

[The Fred]

It just transfers that cost to the machine, from the Oncologist.


Good point, I should stop smoking my one cigar a month

Fred

 

[Recoveryhill]

Good point, I should stop smoking my one cigar a month

Fred

I wouldn't go that far Fred!!

 

[ishiboo]

As far as I know the smaller tractors do not have urea (Adblue) yet. They have a catalytic converter and a Diesel particulate filter.

Plumber friend of mine has a 2010 Mercedes Sprinter van and within 1 month of the purchase the complete urea tank and subsystem had to be replaced as everything inside corroded badly. A year later the EGR valve went and the dealer told him that repair alone was $1,000 dollars. Both were covered by warranty of course.

I think for 10-15 years these tier 4 machines will be fine but what about down the road 30-50 years? I still run a 1958 machine and can buy parts to repair it.

Fred



Fred

I don't see how this is quite related. The Ford N-series have excellent parts availability because they were cheap, a ton were produced (and there was far less competition!), and it was at a time when steel was cheap and lots of people used them for actual farming.

These systems are the only production option now to meet emissions. If you really plan on keeping your tractor 30-50 years and you think by 2064 you'll have problems finding parts, you're right that'll apply to EVERY tractor made in this decade or the previous. The one really nice thing about the emissions components is your tractor will still run and drive without 99% of them, compared to the fact that gears, axles, transmission parts, etc. will all be NLA.

 

[ishiboo]

I'm going to disagree there. My cousin was an engineer at Cummins for many years. He was griping about the emissions regs a few years back. He said - with gas engines, emissions and fuel economy move hand in hand to some degree (until you get too crazy), but on diesels they run counter. You raise emissions standards and it hurts diesel fuel economy. No way around it. His words not mine. There is lots of expensive add-on equipment that was noted in the rest of this thread that does NOTHING for the engine but clean the exhaust. Nothing wrong with cleaning the exhaust, but you pay dearly for it. It does sound like they have improved the fuel usage for regens over the years, but it still uses fuel for "non productive" uses - it doesn't help power the tractor, just burns off the particulate filter. Like another poster noted - if you want cleaner and cleaner air, this is what you have to do, but it is not free, either in equipment or usage costs.

Yes, but only kind of applicable to tractors.

Truck engines are really made for mileage and power (which are VERY related!). Computer controls, high pressure ignition systems and all the bells and whistles came earlier, and then emissions changes got piled on. Power has increased, efficiency has increased, but the emissions controls have definitely set some of those advantages back. The same truck without DPF/urea/etc. will get better mileage than one without it, but at what cost to the environment?

On the other hand, tractor engines prior to the new emissions requirements have for the most part been fairly basic in smaller tractors like our Kubotas. So, when the emissions regulations were piled on, computer controls, high pressure common rail injection, etc. all became a necessity. I think Fred's pretty accurate in saying that it's likely a wash between the two. And they definitely are easier to start/run smoother/etc. There is also a parts cost advantage offset to NOT having complex mechanical injection pumps and things.