Kioti CK3510 3rd Function Issue

[Kioti_Cole]

I have a 2021 Kioti CK3510HST with factory rear remote hydraulics installed to run a backhoe. I decided to add a third function kit to the front end loader to run a grapple. I went with a third function kit from Summit Hydraulics. The kit runs the grapple just fine but the problem is that I lost the majority of my hydraulics to the backhoe after installing the kit. The backhoe operates extremely slowly and lacks power (the outriggers won’t even lift the tractor anymore).

I have attached a diagram that I drew showing how I plumbed the kit in. What I did is remove the factory hard line going from the port labeled “T” on the loader valve that goes into one of the top ports of the rear remote valve, basically putting the third function valve in series. I explained to the service guy at my local dealer how I installed it and he assured me that that I had it plumbed correctly and suggested an issue with the third function valve not allowing enough fluid to flow through. To test this theory I put quick couplings on the two hoses going to the third function so that I could couple them together and create a loop taking the third function out of the equation. By doing this the backhoe picked a little bit of speed (not much) but it still lacks power. I suspect that the distance of hose is not able to carry the volume of hydraulic fluid that the short hardline can.

If the way I have everything plumbed is actually correct, why would I be having is issue? Is there another way of hooking the third function or maybe a different set of ports that I could hook into that would separate the third function from the fluid supply to the rear remote (leaving the factory hard line intact)? I know I can’t be the only one that has come across this issue.

Thanks in advance!

 

[oldnslo]

The valves need to be connected in series on machines with a fixed displacement pump.

On most tractors the flow goes from pump to the front loader valve. Then power beyond from loader valve supplies next valve which in your drawing was the rear remotes. Typically power beyond from rear remotes supplies flow to the 3 point hitch.
You need a power beyond option the 3rd function so that it can be in series.

Typical plumbing would be power beyond from loader valve to pressure port of 3rd function, power beyond of 3rd function to pressure port of rear remotes. The tank line of loader valve must go directly to tank. Depending on style of 3rd function it may also require a tank line going directly to the tank. This can be teed into the tank line from loader valve.

Hope this all makes sense.

 

[Kioti_Cole]

Thanks for the reply. I believe that I have it plumbed as you describe it. After taking a closer look at some of the pictures I took when I had it apart, I think that the "T" stamping is referring to the port below where I am tied into that returns to the tank. I think I do have the third function connected to the power beyond port of the loader valve as the grapple functions fine. I attached another picture that might help to show how I have it hooked up. If I am understanding correctly you are saying that I may need a different third function kit that has a power beyond port to be able to have an in series installation?

If this is the case when I added couplings to bypass the third function like I mentioned in my original post why would I still have a lack of hydraulic function at the backhoe?

Not sure if anyone has any experience with the Kit from Summit Hydraulics. When I talked to them on the phone they seemed to think the way I had it plumbed was correct but didn't really have any insight as to why I am having issues.

 

[oldnslo]

Looking at picture is that a steel line and banjo fitting on top right corner of valve?

Where is pressure line located on the loader valve?

I am trying to figure out how loader valve is plumbed since I believe problem started when 3rd function was added.

Do you have pictures or literature of the 3rd function valve?

 

[Kioti_Cole]

Looking at picture is that a steel line and banjo fitting on top right corner of valve?

Where is pressure line located on the loader valve?

I am trying to figure out how loader valve is plumbed since I believe problem started when 3rd function was added.

Do you have pictures or literature of the 3rd function valve?

The steel line at the top right coming from the pump. I found some literature online confirming that I am connected to the power beyond port (upper port on the left hand side). Here is a diagram from the 3rd function valve instructions.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

So the loader works fine, and the grapple works fine, but the backhoe is starving for hydraulic flow? What size are the hoses? #6 or #8 which is 3/8" or 1/2"? The hose will flow plenty, however are there and adapter fittings or something like that in use? The hoses were brand new? I ask because the one in the photo you show doesn't look pristine. It looks like I'm seeing an adapter between the hose end and the valve body but I can't be sure. Just trying to figure out what has changed on the system with the addition of the extra valve. You eliminated the valve so it's a plumbing issue. There aren't any orifices or flow controls are there that are now in the wrong part of the circuit? They do things like that to control speed on things that rapid movement could be a bad thing. Like the stabilizers coming down unrestrained.

 

[oldnslo]

Sounds like you have confirmed plumbing so next step is installing a pressure gauge in the system to see where you are losing pressure. Simple place to start would be putting a tee in the power beyond line from loader valve. See what the pressure is with all the valve in neutral. Operate the 3rd function till cylinder hits end of stroke, note what the pressure is. Move the gauge to inlet of rear remotes. Is pressure similar with all the valves in neutral as it was at loader valve? Operate rear remote, what is pressure when a cylinder hits end of stroke? Should be similar to 3rd function.

Somewhere you are losing flow which limits pressure so just need to find that point.

 

[LouNY]

The steel line at the top right coming from the pump. I found some literature online confirming that I am connected to the power beyond port (upper port on the left hand side). Here is a diagram from the 3rd function valve instructions.

That diagram puzzles me, Were is the pressure from the pump feeding that?
Normally the pump would supply the loader valve (P), from the loader valve POWER BEYOND to your 3rd function P, from the 3rd function tank to the rear remote P.
Then the T from the loader valve and the rear remote T both go to the T (return).
Also all the flow for the rear remote has to pass through the porting of the 3rd function. I don't like 3rd functions so I have not paid much attention to them, I prefer diverter valves, but that's me.

 

[oldnslo]

A really off the wall thought but… is there a chance the 3 point lever was moved to full raise while you were doing the install and it is now affecting the back hoe. This would have little to no affect on the loader but could have some affect on 3rd function and back hoe.

 

[Kioti_Cole]

So the loader works fine, and the grapple works fine, but the backhoe is starving for hydraulic flow? What size are the hoses? #6 or #8 which is 3/8" or 1/2"? The hose will flow plenty, however are there and adapter fittings or something like that in use? The hoses were brand new? I ask because the one in the photo you show doesn't look pristine. It looks like I'm seeing an adapter between the hose end and the valve body but I can't be sure. Just trying to figure out what has changed on the system with the addition of the extra valve. You eliminated the valve so it's a plumbing issue. There aren't any orifices or flow controls are there that are now in the wrong part of the circuit? They do things like that to control speed on things that rapid movement could be a bad thing. Like the stabilizers coming down unrestrained.

The hoses that came with the kit are brand new 3/8” hoses. The kit also came with the adapters that you see in the picture to go from SAE to JIC. I guess that would make sense that maybe the orifice is too small in the adapters leading to slow hydraulics to the backhoe. I wonder if I upsized the hose and adapters if that would open the orifice up enough to help the hydraulic function?

 

[dfkrug]

Here is a diagram from the 3rd function valve instructions.

There is no PB port on your Summit H06 valve. You can't use the 'T' line to power the next valve in your series (the tractor AUX valve). That line is limited to 500psi, usually.

On my Kioti, I run a single diverter to the FEL to run my 4in1 bucket, and I run a long pair of hoses from the tractor AUX valve to run the 2-way front-mounted hydraulic mixer. In the latter case, I use only 1/4" hoses, but I run only at idle, and I still get some warm hoses.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

3/8" should be large enough unless one of the adapters is an orifice fitting. I'm with LouNY that the schematic gives some confusion in the plumbing. Except that you bypassed the new valve and it didn't change the issue. The hoses are new so the "shouldn't" be an issue. Hydraulic hoses don't suffer a great deal of loss unless you are running long distances. Not enough that you would see it in your situation at least. The only thing that I'm struggling with is why the extra valve is added between the loader valve and the rear remote instead of after it. Although the loader valve may have a power beyond already in it so then it would make sense. I tried to find a schematic for your tractor but didn't have any success.

I would inspect your hoses closely. It would be less likely but still possible for someone who was careless to over crimp a hose end and restrict flow. I've saw it happen in #4 or 1/4" hydraulic hoses to the point oil flow was blocked. So it wouldn't hurt to take a good look at the crimps on the hoses. Big hoses aren't an issue because it takes a lot more pressure to crimp a 1" or #16 hose. Just something else to look at.

 

[oldnslo]

There is no PB port on your Summit H06 valve. You can't use the 'T' line to power the next valve in your series (the tractor AUX valve). That line is limited to 500psi, usually.

I believe the Summit valve is industrial style D03 subplate mounted valve so tank port is potentially rated to 3000 PSI.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

So I was reading the documentation on the Summit site. Then looking at the photo you posted of your valve setup. I'm going to copy and paste what they have on their website. I count 7 lines on your valve. If that is correct you have it plumbed wrong according to what they have on their website. Here is their verbiage about it. It appears you are connected at the tank fitting and if you actually have a "PB" port then you are not getting the pressure and flow needed for the backhoe and 3rd valve. I may be seeing it completely wrong and if so tell me. It's early yet and I have only made a few mistakes so far today so I haven't hit my quota yet.


How do I find my power beyond on my loader valve?

"Typically, there are seven hoses or steel tubes connected to the loader valve. If only six hoses or tubes; there is no Power Beyond Port on your loader valve. The 1st four are connected to your loader for the up, down, dump, and curl functions. The fifth line comes from your pump to feed your loader valve. The sixth line goes directly to your reservoir so that when the pressure relief valve opens the fluid is dumped directly to the reservoir. The seventh line is connected to the “Power Beyond Port” on your loader valve, which is used to power other valves beyond the loader valve. On some loader valves there is a “PB” stamped on the valve next to the power beyond port. Some loaders indicate their power beyond port with green tape or a green mark on the hose or valve. Some loader valves have a power beyond sleeve inserted in the power beyond port. This sleeve looks like a nut; however, it is 3 to 4 times longer than a normal sized nut. On some loader valves there are no clues to help determine which connection is the power beyond port. Your owner’s manual may not even indicate the location."

 

[Kioti_Cole]

So I was reading the documentation on the Summit site. Then looking at the photo you posted of your valve setup. I'm going to copy and paste what they have on their website. I count 7 lines on your valve. If that is correct you have it plumbed wrong according to what they have on their website. Here is their verbiage about it. It appears you are connected at the tank fitting and if you actually have a "PB" port then you are not getting the pressure and flow needed for the backhoe and 3rd valve. I may be seeing it completely wrong and if so tell me. It's early yet and I have only made a few mistakes so far today so I haven't hit my quota yet.


How do I find my power beyond on my loader valve?

"Typically, there are seven hoses or steel tubes connected to the loader valve. If only six hoses or tubes; there is no Power Beyond Port on your loader valve. The 1st four are connected to your loader for the up, down, dump, and curl functions. The fifth line comes from your pump to feed your loader valve. The sixth line goes directly to your reservoir so that when the pressure relief valve opens the fluid is dumped directly to the reservoir. The seventh line is connected to the “Power Beyond Port” on your loader valve, which is used to power other valves beyond the loader valve. On some loader valves there is a “PB” stamped on the valve next to the power beyond port. Some loaders indicate their power beyond port with green tape or a green mark on the hose or valve. Some loader valves have a power beyond sleeve inserted in the power beyond port. This sleeve looks like a nut; however, it is 3 to 4 times longer than a normal sized nut. On some loader valves there are no clues to help determine which connection is the power beyond port. Your owner’s manual may not even indicate the location."

This is a picture from there installation instructions showing which port is the power beyond port. Based on this I think I have it plumbed as they have it shown in their installation diagram. I think it the location of the "T" stamp is a little misleading because it is closer to the upper port than it is the lower (tank) port.

 

[Kioti_Cole]

That diagram puzzles me, Were is the pressure from the pump feeding that?
Normally the pump would supply the loader valve (P), from the loader valve POWER BEYOND to your 3rd function P, from the 3rd function tank to the rear remote P.
Then the T from the loader valve and the rear remote T both go to the T (return).
Also all the flow for the rear remote has to pass through the porting of the 3rd function. I don't like 3rd functions so I have not paid much attention to them, I prefer diverter valves, but that's me.

It is definitely not the greatest diagram the they provide. I'm assuming that the port they have labeled "P" is actually the power beyond port and they just aren't showing the pressure line from the pump. If that is the case then the routing they show aligns with how you described it.

 

[Kioti_Cole]

I had a chance to look at the adapter fittings that the kit came with. The orifice in the adapter fittings (~1/4" ID) id significantly smaller than the factory steel line connection. That seems to me like it would be a significant restriction on the system. I am temped to upsize the JIC fitting from a #6 to a #10 to see if that would allow enough fluid flow to fix my issue. I'm just not sure if upsizing a couple of sizes would be enough to make a difference. I'm also not sure if I would have to upsize my hose size to be able to get a fitting with a larger thread like that.

 

[oldnslo]

What is the hydraulic flow for implement functions on your tractor. Doubtful that the 1/4” hole would cause the backhoe to not operate but anything is possible.

 

[oldnslo]

This is my attempt to recap what was done when installing the 3rd function valve.
1) The line from power beyond on loader valve feeding rear valve was removed.
2) A line was connected to power beyond port on loader valve and connected to P port of 3rd function.
3) Power beyond ( in this case T port) of 3rd function was connected to inlet port of rear valve where loader power beyond was connected originally.

NO other factory lines were changed.

The loader and 3rd function operate correctly but backhoe does not.

Stupid question but have you checked to confirm the quick disconnects to the lines to back hoe are fully connected?

 

[Kioti_Cole]

This is my attempt to recap what was done when installing the 3rd function valve.
1) The line from power beyond on loader valve feeding rear valve was removed.
2) A line was connected to power beyond port on loader valve and connected to P port of 3rd function.
3) Power beyond ( in this case T port) of 3rd function was connected to inlet port of rear valve where loader power beyond was connected originally.

NO other factory lines were changed.

The loader and 3rd function operate correctly but backhoe does not.

Stupid question but have you checked to confirm the quick disconnects to the lines to back hoe are fully connected?

That is correct. Yes, the lines to the backhoe are fully engaged/connected. The backhoe moves its is extremely slow and lacks power regardless of engine rpm. When bypassing the third function with the quick coupling I added, the backhoe picks up a bit of power and speed by not much.