JD4520 and tilt hydraulics - have questions

[eepete]

I'm trying to locate a tilt cylinder for my 3PH on my 4x20 tractor. A previous thread I started detailed getting my hydraulic top link working, this is the 2nd half of a top and tilt (TnT) project. The hydraulic top link is great, I just need to get a .030 orifice for it, it can move a bit too fast for my liking.

I measured my adjustable screw arm and fully retracted it's 17.5" center to center. At this fully retracted position, everything is level. It can extend about 5.5" to a length of 23". When I used this adjustable side on my 6' box blade, I never put more than an inch of extension on it. That gave me a lot of tilt.
My JD dealer has a cylinder that is 3.5" outside diameter, a 1.5" diameter rod, and a travel range of 3". Fully retracted it is 17.5". The 'U' shaped end of it that goes on the draft arms has 4 sets of holes in it, and I would use the ones closes to the cylinder and leave the next set of holes free just in case. I would cut the remainder off. It looks like this cylinder is made for a number of different types of tractors.

So, my current setup has a manual range of 17.5" to 23", but I've only used 1" of adjustment. Note that I can only tilt down on the right hand side of the tractor, I can not tilt the "other way" from level with this manual adjustment. The cylinder has a range of 17.5 to 21.5", and would also only tilt in only one direction if I just replaced my manually adjustable with the cylinder.

Questions:
1) Isn't it desirable to have a TnT that can tilt both ways?
2) If I swap the manually adjustable to the other side, and extend it 1.5", I can get 1.5" of tilt at the arms in either direction. This looks like about a foot of tilt on the far end of the box blade. So the question is, on the 4000 series, how much travel (stroke) does the tilt cylinder need?
3) Is putting the old manually adjustable cylinder on the other side and leaving it out by 1.5" an OK way to get tilt in both directions?
4) Is the 1.5" cylinder rod diameter OK for the 4250 (60HP) tractor?
5) Any other specific suggestions for a cylinder that I could get?

I hope that Steve (jenkinsph) will be all over this and started a new thread for those facing the same problem down the road. One other ancillary tidbit- I have an iMatch on order for this.

Pete

 

[kennyd]

If you call CCM, they will make you a custom cylinder with a DPOCV.

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Yeah I'm here nothing like being a full time care giver and small bizz person at the same time.

Anyway to answer some questions
1) Yes, you should swap the adjustable screw arm to the other side and save the plain one. Using the adjustment you can get a good tilt either side it just depends on what you need. If I am cutting a ditch for instance I will screw the adjuster all the way up to get maximum tilt angle to the right side. This is shown in the picture and if it is set in the middle as you can imagine you would get about half of that available to you in either direction.

2) I have 4 inches of stroke, I would not want any less, thats with a factory cylinder. See second picture.

3) Yes this will work, food for thought, if you find you need more tilt without fooling with the manual adjustment you can put in a cylinder on both sides using the same circuit.

4) Looks about right I will have to get you a rod diameter measurement, recognize that these cylinders are for the most part pulling rather than pushing and with a larger rod diameter you sacrifice the lifting or pulling force,probably not enough to worry about though.

5) I used to have good connections for hydraulic parts but today do not. Most of the cheap stuff will work but hard to say how long. Considering the hassel looking for the right combination to work I am sticking with the factory stuff.

Here are some pictures

 

[Cocre]

I was thinking of buying the 16-22.5 hydraulic top link from CCM, cutting the cylinder rod swivel eye off and welding on a saddle strap in its place, and using it as a hydraulic side link on my 3320. The factory links are straight with no angles or doglegs, so this should be a simple thing to do. I do not know about the 4x20 series though.

 

[eepete]

Kenny and Steve, you both have what I call the "curse of competence".

@Cocre: If CCM can make the entire assembly, that would work for me. 4x20 series looks to be a straight shot on the side link.

Kenny, I have the DPOCV on the toplink. I was going with a plain cylinder on the tilt so I could float it if I needed to. It also seemed that the price of failure and leak-down would be less with the tilt than the top. That said, the effect of a .030 or so constriction to slow the speed might make the float not very effective. If you have any thoughts on the functional differences between the two options, I'd love to hear them.

Steve, you've answered all my questions and now I'm down to finding the right cylinder. I'm going to have the JD dealer verify the stoke, and if it is indeed 3" (as they said) then I'll call CCM. The cylinder the JD dealer had looks exactly like the one in your picture, so maybe it was not fully extended when they measured it and they need to pull off the caps and see for sure.

Thanks to both of you.

Pete

 

[kennyd]

The ONLY downside of the DPOCV's is the lack of ability to float like you said...I am curious about the restrictor also and the float ability? I guess it may depend on the weight of the implement but not sure. I have never had the opportunity to test it.

 

[eepete]

I was trying to think ahead/figure out how when I connect to the MX6 rotary mower I could float the tilt so the mower could move around (vertically). Normally, I'd rotate the pins in the bottom so they can float a bit, but that's a "get out of the cab" moment. Yes, I've got to do that anyway for the PTO but it's more to do and probably harder to do when the mower is on than to do before you put it on. This is a one time or two times out of the cab consideration. Then there's the problem that when the TnT is connected to the joystick, the left/right used for bucket curl would be the most sense for tilt, but it doesn't have a float position like the (typically) up down for loader. And the up/down (positions 3/4) movement makes the most sense for the top link.
Another possibility is to use a variable flow valve (i.e. instead of fixed restrictor a variable one) and then if you where putting on the mower you could "dial it up" which would be easier than flipping the bottom pins around. More flow means faster float. This could be done when connecting the PTO shaft, and would be easier than moving the links either with the mower on or in a separate get down out of the cab moment before connecting to the mower with the iMatch.

Since controlling the TnT via the joystick will be new to me, I very well might just be able to develop the correct "muscle memory" to use up-down for tilt and left-right for the toplink. Then I can float the tilt.

So in addition to all the logistics of the correct cylinder, I want to be sure to get all the lengths on the hydraulic lines such that I can swap things around. It may turn out that the up/down on the joystick is good for the toplink, but I'll use the 3rd SCV for the tilt so I can float it with the mower on. Of course that's still in the same direction as the up-down on the joystick, so the muscle memory adaptation problem is the same. Then, it's a separate problem to see how well/fast the float works with a restrictor and if it's a problem change it out to a variable one.

The win of the DPOCV valve in the tilt is clear- off is off and it doesn't move. Doing this clearly means that before mounting the MX6 I would have to flip the pins on the draft arms so it could float. Joystick is then intuitive. If I'm not changing between the MX6 and other implements often, it's all not a problem. It always comes back to defining your needs and how you will use your equipment.

So all this is going in circle in my head. Instead of being clever enough to be right, I just want to be flexible enough that I can stumble on a solution that works for me.

I am very receptive to any "Stop spinning Pete, do this and it will work in the real world" advice. You guys already sold me on the TnT and iMatch.

Steve: I just re-read/re-thunk your comment 5. Does that mean that your tilt cylinder is a JD part #? Dealer said the JD didn't make a TnT kit, and hence no cylinder for the tilt.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete

WOW! You are overthinking this. I don't see the concern for the use with the MX6, first of all let me say that the front of the mower is hanging from the hitch and if you adjusted it to hang square with the tractor then it will follow the tractor. The entire hitch is free to move upwards and with the swivel top link the mower tail wheel can move independently too. So, without front guage wheels I don't see where this matters.

My hitch is in the float position all the time and most of my implements are heavy enough for this to work well. I use the topntilt to raise or hold suspended the implement where needed.

Topntilt is not set it and forget it, concern about cylinder leak down is not very important in my opinion. If you are using a box blade to produce a finished grade you will be tweaking the boxblade frequently anyway. Lots of finite adjustments needed to hold grade.

Bear in mind that prior to installing the topntilt these opportunities to adjust on the fly did not exist, so it changes how you can use the implements.

I think you would be better off to go with the basic topntilt hitch first as I outlined with the joystick control before deciding if you need anything else.

 

[jenkinsph]

Tilt cylinder part # AH222403
Top cylinder part # AH168698

Hope this helps

 

[eepete]

Pete

WOW! You are overthinking this....

My hitch is in the float position all the time..

I think you would be better off to go with the basic topntilt hitch first as I outlined with the joystick control before deciding if you need anything else.

Well, inside every engineer is a borderline obsessive compulsive screaming to get out, and some days mine gets the better of me. Thanks for the slap in the face, I needed that

The hitch in float all the time is the missing piece that makes it work for me. I'll do what you did and take it from there if need be, but your experience indicates I'll be just fine and at that point where the limits of the operator far outweigh the limits of the equipment.

tnx for the part #s, I've emailed them to my dealer. I'll post pix when it's all happy.

Pete

 

[GreatWhitehunter]

In the power industry we've got engineer's up the wazoo. ( I'm a control tech, so I'm the guy who takes the theory to reality) And we like to joke about them being book smart real world stupid LOL.

Matt

 

[eepete]

Yeah, welcome to my world.

I'm pretty good at designing, layout out, and bringing to life a circuit board and software. But hydraulics are new to me so I need the reality check that everyone here can give me. You're strength is your weakness.

I've got a buddy in the power industry, we're a pretty good compliment to each other in this regard. He's got a _lot_ of stupid engineer stories....
Thanks for keeping the lights on for everyone!

Pete

 

[eepete]

After a delay of game (see http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-owning-operating/162706-new-jd4520-cab-destroyed.html) I've got the TnT back on track. I had CCM make a cylinder to my specs. I've attached the drawing I sent them. The final closed length of the cylinder (center hole to center hole) worked out to be about 15.25", which is fine. They blew the clear 3/4 at the top, so a brass bushing had to be drilled out to get it to fit. They made both ends 5/8".

You can see where the side tilt cylinder (green) has the lines coming out of the DPOCV at 90 degrees by using banjo bolts. There is then this incredible arc of hose that comes down to the rear of the tractor where the plate that used to be at the front for the loader has been re-located. The hoses do 90 degree turn into the QCs (need better pix of this....). I suspect that I'll play with this a bit and shorten the hoses so they just rest on above the SMV sign holder when the 3 PT hitch is at it's lowest. There isn't any good way to route the hoses without having them crunch in on something, so while the big arc is funny looking it is functional. Might also flip the cylinder 180 around so the hose lines come out closer to the tractor. This is where Steve's (jenkinsph) method of in line QCs is a bit more accommodating.

The CCM toplink is very happy now. As you can see in one of the pix, the QCs are about at the same level as the hoses out of the DPOCVs. They arc nicely over the lift arms throughout all the travel of the 3 PT hitch. This is better than thing fit when the toplink was on the 3rd SCV (I've got a thread on that too).

It's hard to see in the picture, but the adjustable lift arm on that is now on the left of the tractor is out about 1.3". That is giving me about the same amount off tilt in each direction, more pix to follow when the box blade is on. This gives me some manual room if I don't want symmetric amounts of tilt for a project.

So the TnT is on the joystick in the cab. I still have the 3rd SCV which the sickle mower uses. It's real touchy, so I'm thinking some restrictors in the line of the side cylinder would be nice. Since I have 90 in there already, I could put them so that the small hole in the restrictor doesn't force a stream of hydraulic fluid onto a hose, it goes on to metal. Any additional lenght in doing this would just add a bit to the hose height as it arcs over everything.

Anyway, here are the 1st pix for y'all to enjoy and react to, I'll be working and adjusting it some more. I'll post some more pix as this progresses and when I have the iMatch on.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Nice looking tilt cylinder,:thumbsup: you will like the top and tilt functions.

My question is with the top link cylinder having check valves doesn't this limit the ability to use the float position on your joystick? It won't matter with your MX6 which has the flexible top link built in, but may affect your landplane. I have found times when using my 3pt harrow and landplane where having the top cylinder in the float position is beneficial.

Again glad to see the tractor back home.

 

[eepete]

Ah, the whack-a-mole world of attachments. Yeah, now that the top cylinder is on the joystick and I can float, the check valves complicate things. I like the safety aspects of the valves, but with this land plane it might be an issue. I wonder what people with fixed top links do to use a landplane, as the check valves behave like a fixed top link (except you can quickly change it on the fly). Is this akin to a box blade on fixed toplink vs. hydraulic- both work but the hydraulic is 10x better ?

I'll have to play with it. My hope is that most of the time, I'll use the box blade to get things close to level, and then the landplane will be OK with the non flexible but quickly adjustable toplink. If this is not the case, then a hydraulic toplink without check valves could be used, that is at least a cheap(er) cylinder. 'corse that kinda defeats the whole idea of the iMatch. What might make this work for me (but not for others and especially you) is I will be doing most of my ground engaging work when it's not mowing season. So I could put my check valve toplink on during mowing season, and then switch to the regular cylinder the other 5 months of the year.

Another crazy option would be to take that post coming out of the landplane and find some way to make it have some pivot to it, say +- 10 degrees or so. Could still use the TnT to pick it up, but it would be able to move around enough to make using it easier.

BTW, got the GradeMaster because it was $300 less than the Pioneer. Only weights 50 pounds less, same height/box volume. I got it from my Deere dealer to keep that relationship good.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Not a real big deal on the float, nothing to be too concerned about.

I think you will find the plane will move quite a bit of dirt, so there will be lots of times you will not need the boxblade. Hope you can try out the plane and post back.

 

[eepete]

An update to round out this thread. I had the box blade on my JD 4520, and took pictures of the range of movement with the TnT/iMatch. The stroke on the side cylinder is 4". The adjustable arm is out .9 "

I'm just organizing things in the new tractor garage, in about a week I'll start moving dirt with the boxblade and landplane and get a feel for it all.

I hear everyone likes pictures...

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,

Looks good just don't forget you can adjust the other side when you need to.

 

[eepete]

Another update: Today I added a needle valve to the tilt cylinder, and re-dressed the hoses so they are not up over the glass.

The 1st pix is the needle valve and QC. The next pic shows how the hoses route out of there. They had to be dressed just right to avoid hitting the lift arm.

The last pix is the finished product, the new rear of the tractor with the TnT. The needle valve is installed, and the hoses now run below the washer fluid tank and not up on the rear window. So now it's easier to open the rear window.

Finally, I listened to Kennyd and made a pressure gauge I could plug in. My 4520 was right on the money at 2500 pounds when the relief valve kicked in. I used teflon paste, not tape BTW- no leaks, no problems :thumbsup:.

Before the needle valve, I had to stop the tractor to adjust the tilt. Just the slightest movement of the joystick slammed it to one side or the other. Learned to manage it, but it could be better. Thought about a fixed orafice but liked the idea that I didn't have to be right about the size, I could just dial the needle valve until it was the response I thought was right.

So now it takes about 3-4 seconds to go from one side to the other, and I can adjust on the fly. It sounds different because you can hear the relief valve kick in, but thats OK, I know the pressure is where it should be.

Next I'm worrying about the title cylinder having just a hole and not a slot like the other side. If I could mill out a slot and weld on to strips of metal, I could get the 3PH float functionality back. Yeah, I'm the kind of person who is not happy unless they are worrying about something :laughing:.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Much better for sure,:thumbsup:
To be frank, I wouldn't have accepted the job your dealer did with the hoses looped in front of the rear window. How have you been able to open the rear window to operate the IMatch latches? It is apparent that you went to lots of trouble to get this much neater appearance.


When I ran my couplers to the rear I used 1/4" x48" length hoses, I did not mount the quick couplers on a plate as yours. My quick couplers are forward and tucked under the cab. I haven't needed to unplug them yet and feel that this position allows you to route the hoses with less movement and flexing. Having the hoses cross over the pin or hinge point allows for less movement. My couplers do have enough slack to move out from under the cab to connect and disconnect easily.

If I were to do this again I would locate the tilt cylinder quick couplers to the spool valve, since there isn't much point in having the hoses crossing back and forth. The tilt cylinder hoses could connect in an almost straight path to the valve with quick coupler. Two 90 degree ells on the valve would take the place of the hoses we both have now.

About the needle valve setup, I suspect the check valves are causing your issues with control of the cylinders. IIRC most of the check valves require about 600 psi to open thus creating the slingshot effect you are getting. I can feather my cylinders and move the tilt and top cylinders in tiny increments with no problems just as you can with your loader and backhoe. I have never found the need for the check valves on the cylinders because when grading I am constantly making adjustments to the plane and boxblade. Instead of taking 4 seconds to extend or retract at full speed I would rather about 2 seconds or less. This allows you to adjust the boxblade on the fly, if I feather mine it could take over 5 seconds to extend or retract.