JD or Kubota?

sneaky_pete · Jan 10, 2005

( if you like to do your own mechanic work they sure can make it harder to diagnose and repair 

On the contrary. All of my newer JD equipment has self-diagnostics. I've saved hundreds of hours this way working on equipment. The Ford powerstrokes are this way as well. )

I'm glad to hear it. The modern cars and motorcycles I have are much more difficult to diagnose, wihtout the requisite code-reading machinery which is usually very expensive and/or available only to dealers - but I don't own any Ford or JD equipment. My Kubota tractors have very few electronics beyond instruments and lights, and they have been bullet-proof reliable so far.

Evasive1 · Jan 10, 2005

( All of my newer JD equipment has self-diagnostics. I've saved hundreds of hours this way )

(I am not familiar with John Deere diagnositc code reader so this statement is not meant for John Deere so do not bash me!!)

If you have the $10,500 diagnositic code reader this is great but it is still not fool-proof. My wifes brand new Jaguar was coming up with an engine code and had to take it in to be read by the dealer diagnostic computer (This is where the $10,500 price number came from) It was showing Gear Box Failure, so they put in a new transmission.
Two weeks later it happened again. New transmission again.
A third time they started scratching their heads looking for something different even though the computer was saying bad transmission. Ends up both Oxygen Senors were bad. Replacing these and no more problems.

We have probably all changed out electric window motors, but how many of us had to replace the gears on a crank up window?

Electronics are great but sometimes you have to weigh the difference if the convenience is worth the possiblility of extra cost in the long run for yourself. Most of the time the extra electronic convenience will win out.

obrith · Jan 10, 2005

Just a couple quick points -

Unless you're getting a 'larger' (new 4x20 series), you are buying a completely yanmar-built tractor. More of the Kubota is built in the US. Regaurdless of what your local JD dealer would lead you to believe. Most pure JD dealers bleed green.

Being a very established dealer for both Kubota and Deere (25 yrs Kubota / 10 years JD), we've had far and away more issues with John Deere tractors, and the company as a whole is much harder to work with.

As far as 'off' brands, we have issues with customers coming in our store and getting *angry* with US when we tell them we cant get parts for their mahindra/kioti/ect (these have become far less frequent over the last few years) because their selling dealer told them WE were their source for parts. Most of the 'off' brands, atleast at dealerships around us don't stock parts... at all. Our dealership has extremely high stock rates for parts. We have >90% fill rates off our shelf. Not all dealers are as well established as we are, but you will find that both John Deere and Kubota require their dealers to keep to a much higher standard than what you will find at most of the 'off' brands, especially the ones that only sell off brands.

This is all personal experience, but I've been working with these tractors nearly my entire life, and I can honestly say that every time I'd go with Kubota over every other brand. They are a very good company and will take care of you.

art · Jan 10, 2005

Some times the original designs don't work so good so if you add some extra electronics you can smooth out the rough spots and make them drive as good as the rest of them.

rockyridgefarm · Jan 10, 2005

you are buying a completely yanmar-built tractor. More of the Kubota is built in the US. Regaurdless of what your local JD dealer would lead you to believe 

So all the Made in USA labels on my 4310, That is that little fishing village in Japan? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Art, you are dead on, the fly by wire is a huge improvement over the 4000 series in relation to the hydrostatic. Sure does a great job! Kubota does a great job with their setup, although the pedal doesn't work, for me...

KiotiJohn · Jan 11, 2005

( While I understand your argument, and in principle I do agree that the more complicated things are the harder they can be to repair....On the other hand,

Apparently, your brand does not offer these options??????? )
No, at this time my brand does not offer these options, but you make it sound as though I didn't try the other brands before I decided to buy. I certainly tried out all those wonderful things JD offered. I tried many brands, and decided that for MY hard earned money, the Kioti was the one that was the best deal FOR ME. I had to consider that if I live to life expectancy, the tractor will not be in warranty. I may not have the big bucks to fix old electronics that may not work years down the road, so I wanted something a little simpler (HST the exception) that I could work on if I had to. No need to make a big deal about my brand not offering these, it's one of the main reasons I bought what I did. Good quality, modern features without gimmicks, at a price I could live with. Load match or no, I can still load with the best of them, and my foot seems to know exactly when I need to give or take. It's electronic too, comes from the brain. John

Kyle_in_Tex · Jan 11, 2005

( Unless you're getting a 'larger' (new 4x20 series), you are buying a completely yanmar-built tractor. More of the Kubota is built in the US. Regaurdless of what your local JD dealer would lead you to believe. )

I believe the only part of my tractor (4310) that is Yanmar is the engine. You might be speaking of the 790 and 990 for which I did not buy. BTW, Which Kubota parts besides FEL are made here? Maybe the tires? I'm guessing.

KiotiJohn, I did not mean to start a flame war. Just stating my opinion. My money is hard earned too. I just want some of it to be left in this country when my kid needs to earn it. Simple Macro economics.

Rockyridge, you are right! "Made in USA" is a fishing village a few thousand miles due east of Japan's coast.

obrith · Jan 11, 2005

Ok, anyone can put a "Made in USA" label on anything. Walmart did it for years --Maybe the one part they stuck the label on was 100% US

Much less of your 4x10 deere is made in the states that JD would ever let you know. They do *most* of their manufacturing in Germany or via Yanmar (Japan). They build all of the mowers and gators in the states, but aside from some assembly, most all of the CUTractors are from elsewhere.

As for Kubota; ALL of their implements are manufactured in Georgia. They also build the RTV's, Mowers, BX's, and do all of their assembly (B21/L35/L48/M's) in the US. They have a very high percent of their products produced in the US. And Kubota is expanding their production facilities in Georgia at a very amazing pace (they have to or else none of you will see another RTV for years).

I'm not sure I can give you any better proof than the fact that most dealers that had/have both brands would stay with Kubota every time when it comes down to having to make a choice. And JD is always the company forcing the choice... Because they just dont sell as well as the Kubotas sitting side by side.

rockyridgefarm · Jan 11, 2005

I always love these...

Kubota (Japanese) is Good and made in USA.

Deere (USA) is Bad and made in Japan.

come on, both are great machines. both source worldwide. some folks will love one hate the other, and vice versa. while both are excellant, some folks will be better served by one or the other.

obrith · Jan 11, 2005

I completely agree both are great machines; I wouldnt be selling both otherwise. I was mostly pointing out that the Deere isnt really a US product.

I do however like the Kubotas quite a bit better. Not 100% because of the product, but because of the company as a whole as well.

rockyridgefarm · Jan 11, 2005

Well, we have this same discussion every 6 months or so. Argue semantics about what Made in USA means. We have had members tour the plants and see the machines Not Being Made. (Probably a big charade on Deere's part...)

I was a longtime Kubota user (our family had a dealership.) No problem at all with Kubota. But I ended up a Deere owner and am quite satisfied with the machine, and the service.

JDGREEN4ME · Jan 11, 2005

So the mid and large chassis 4000 TEN Series are imported from Japan? I was under the impression they were built in the USA and powered by Yanmar only. I know my 4115 was built in Japan and I don't have a problem with that. My wife's Honda was made in Ohio and my Ford F250 was built in Mexico. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

AndyClyde · Jan 11, 2005

obrith,
I see a bunch of smoke when I read your posts.
Deere Link
More Deere info
The only JD compact in the 4000 series made by Yamnar is the 4100 series. The 4200-4700 and 4210-4710 are assembled in Augusta Georgia with Yamnar engines

John Deere Augusta Yahoo links
Orbith,
If you are a dealer that sells both Kubotas and John Deere tells us the name of your dealership or better yet if you have a web page show us the link.

obrith · Jan 11, 2005

Ok andy, if you want to go about quoting things --

Here is a JD press release -- deere.com

"At one time Waterloo Works was our only tractor factory. Today, we build tractors in Augusta, Georgia; Mannheim, Germany; Pune, India; Horizontina, Brazil; Saltillo, Mexico and Tianjin, China. Once only a U.S.-based Midwest company, John Deere today, aiming to be a great business, sells its products in 160 countries. In fact, nearly half of our 46,000 employees live outside the U.S."

John Deere has always been quite misleading and vague about things like who is building their products. You would be quite suprised.

Yanmar -- HISTORY
Notice 1977 / 1986

Another Link

Yet Another
"Key Supplier to John Deere: Although John Deere has no ownership stake in Yanmar (a common misconception), Yanmar has been a key supplier to John Deere for almost 30 years. Yanmar supplies John Deere with engines, axles, transmissions and complete compact tractors."

JD Company History
Again, notice 1977. Go ahead and read on... tell me where they inform you they are not using Yanmar to do their full production?

I understand JD is building MORE in the US (which can be/is great), but that is certainly not 'all'. ****, a great example is the 3,300 transmissions they had to recall/replace this year on their newer 4x10 series and 110's - It wasnt a JD manufacturing problem, but a problem with the company whom built the <entire> transmission.

I do work at (and have for over 8 years) a Kubota/John Deere dealership. We have multiple stores, and are a very large dealership. We dont advertise online (although we do have a website with our basic contact information), and I'm not going to have my opinions be a basis for you to flame my employer.

It doesnt matter much to me if you like or listen to what I have to say. I just wanted to let anyone who cares to know my opinions as someone who has worked with both Kubota and John Deere, and has alot of intimate knowledge of both lines.

Also, go back to your PDF on 4x10's --
Where does it say "MADE IN USA"? It doesnt! It says "Assembled in USA"... HUGE difference. If you buy a remote control car "made in China" that "requires some assembly" does that make it a "Made in USA" product because you had to do a little assembly?

John Deere buys a whole bunch of parts made from a whole bunch of companies and then bolts them together and calls it a product from the USA. Most of it isnt.

Most products are like this just as alot of others have pointed out. Its just not fair to call them products of the USA when VERY little is actually done in the USA. As I called it before; JD propaganda.

BillyP · Jan 11, 2005

John Deere has always been quite misleading and vague about things like who is building their products. You would be quite suprised.


Today, we ship East Moline-made combines to the former Soviet Union, Chinese combines to the Middle East, Brazilian combines to Europe, and German and Indian tractors to the U.S. In fact, to be competitive, we produce a tractor in Augusta, Georgia that is assembled almost entirely with parts received from 12 other countries!

Yep, sure sounds like a cover up to me /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

ThistleKop · Jan 11, 2005

Obrith,
Probably I should stay out of this but here goes. I've read all your posts and if your remarks reflect the management's overall opinion of John Deere I could not in good conscience handle JD product. If your opinions do NOT reflect management's stand, you need to get with their program or ........

TK

AndyClyde · Jan 11, 2005

Where does it say "MADE IN USA"? It doesnt! It says "Assembled in USA"... HUGE difference

No JOKE...if you read my post I said "assembled" I did not say they were made in Georgia.At one time Yamnar did make the John Deere compacts and the JD 4100 is still a Yamnar tractor. The 4200-4700 series are ASSEMBLED in Augusta Georgia with Yamnar engines.Yamnar never did make all of the 4000 series,just the 4100.
Your Yanmar History is from 1977/1986,not the JD 4000 series.
Who builds the John Deere transmissions (do YOU know ?) you would be suprised to know John Deere owns the company. Who made the old style( discontinued) front axles for the JD 4000 series ? Yamnar? no....bet you don't know.
So John Deere built this big building in Augusta Georgia just for grins?
The 4020 series are made by Yamnar too ???
Who makes the engines for the 4020 series ???Not Yamnar.

Go ahead and tell us what dealership you work for? Or are you afraid the sales will go down the toilet if everyone new which one you actually worked at ?(If you actually do work at one ?)

Kyle_in_Tex · Jan 12, 2005

Actually, Obrith, I don't have as much of a problem with people buying Japanese because they are on a similar wage scale as us. They also have strict laws governing pollution which puts their manufacturer's on a similar platform as ours. The biggest problem I have, is American companies closing down here and setting up in 3rd world countries to lower wages and avoid EPA. I too am guilty of buying products from abroad. But if given the chance and the price is within reason, I try to buy stuff built (mostly) here. Nissan claims their new big Titan truck is 85% American content.

As far as how much content of JD or Kubota is made in USA, using my 4310 as an example vs. a similarly equipped 3130, I don't think you'll ever convince me that Kubota is anywhere near as much American made. In fact, I would guess that many Kubota buyers are Toyota and Honda quality loyalists here in America. I came within a hair of buying Kubota. I worked for a Yamaha motorcycle dealership in my early years.

Zillions of things over the years have made America great.

Most all tractors sold here today are fine or even great.

Buying a tractor from a 3rd world country does not contribute much to America's greatness.

Varmintmist · Jan 12, 2005

Ya know what we need?

A sticker on tractors just like there is on cars and trucks that says what % was made where.

Because if assembly equals made in the US, then my Mahindra is a US product.

????????????????????

Not hardly, since it is a Korean tractor rebadged for a Indian company assembled in the US. Same should count for a green, orange or blue one. If the components come in on a boat, we ought to know about it.

Not saying that I would have bought a 100% made in US tractor if the dealer didnt treat me like a human, but I like to know what I am buying.

BTW for what its worth, the X50 JD's had Osaka tags all over them, and from what I saw so did the X90's. This isnt a problem, but dont blow sunshine up my butt and tell me its "Mericun" cause its green. Tell me what it really is and I'll make up my own mind.

cowboydoc · Jan 12, 2005

Which dealership do you work for? What state are you located in? I suspect if Deere knew the misinformation you are saying about them you wouldn't have a dealership or a job for very long. I have a good friend that used to own three kubota dealerships. I tryed to deal with him and he couldn't come close to deere's prices. Other people in other states it's the opposite, Kubota was a better choice. He said deere gives special discounts, build more profit into their units, and any warranty work was a real hassle. He constantly was waiting for special parts to come from Japan. He only has one dealership now. The other two went out because he said he had poor warranty support, couldn't afford to carry as many units because they all had to be paid for. Deere has 12-24 months before anything has to be paid for. Deere also finances any trade-ins. They work to keep the dealer costs lower so they can carry more units and have a better selection.

I'm not saying a kubota is bad. My JD 4600 would have been a kubota if I could have gotten anywhere close to the price of it from kubota on a like machine. It's never had a problem in over 2000 hours of use.

As far as made in the US there are a significant # of parts that are made in the USA on the 4600. Also a fact that is little known is that Deere owns most of the companies whose products go into their tractors and machines.

You state the RTV is mfg. here yet the HST, steering, and engine all come from Japan. Same with the tractors. Yet you want to brag that they are US made and then bash Deere because their motors used to be made by Yanmar? Everything you said about kubota is true of deere yet kubota is a good american company and deere is bad???

The profits to the corporation, the real mfg. dollars, all go back to Japan not to the US. You don't have the executives here and the engine making etc. All your high dollar profits are going back to Japan. The only reason that they make them here is so that they can avoid the tariffs and make a higher profit to be sent back to Japan. And fine that's global economics. But don't act like Kubota is some kind of a US company with interets and loyalty to this country.

To anyone else I am not trying to get into a which tractor is better here. I think kubota is a great machine.