International 444, 1968. Progress Thread, Getting Going

[DJ54]

If it doesn't have live power, with the clutch pedal blocked down, and transmission in gear, engage the PTO, put a wrench on the PTO shaft and turn it. This is the method I use when I split a tractor at the engine bell housing, only don't have to worry about blocking the clutch pedal down to get it back together the last few inches.

I use a large adjustable/Crescent wrench to turn it, but a socket may slip on the shaft, and using a ratchet may speed the process. Here, I'd probably get an old female PTO shaft and modify it to fit my impact. Theres times it pays to have "stuff" laying around.

It may take a while to move it, but not any longer than it'd take to rig up what you're thinking.

 

[FlyFishn]

Good idea on the pto shaft to move the tractor. Ill have to keep that in mind.

The rigging plate, though, will help us drag everything else in to the shop - equipment and vehicles. So it has a larger purpose than this one project/situation.

 

[FlyFishn]

Just a quick update so far this weekend:

I got the rigging plate fabricated and bolted to the shop floor. It works fantastic.

With the rigging plate in place I was able to get to work today on the tractor work that I've been needing to get to - splitting the lift housing from the chassis. That was a success. It took a while as I had to reorganize the shop in order to get the room to winch the tractor backwards and forwards. So that aspect of the work is now checked off the list.

I also got the transmission top cover - with the shifter and forks - off the transmission. In inspecting the transmission - it appears all the gears are in good shape. I don't see anything that is much of a concern in there yet.

What is a concern is the shifter won't move side to side past 1/R - even while out of the transmission. The good news in that is what is hanging it up is not IN the transmission, it is associated with the shifter assembly.

The bad news is I can't find a diagram that shows the proper assembly of the shifter forks/sliders. The parts manual shows an exploded view of the parts, however it does not depict the assembled components or how they assemble.

That said - I can't tell if the hang-up is the ball on the end of the shifter not sliding in to the notches in the higher gear sliders; or if the shift lever is seized on the pivot pin.

I will try to disassemble the shift lever from the top and see what I can find. My hope there is I can pull it out of the top of the cover without disturbing the slides underneath. We'll see what happens.

 

[FlyFishn]

Another weekend update - the shifter is freed up, mostly.

The issue was 2 parts. The 1st part was gunk clogging the slot between the sliders. That prevented the initial side to side movement in the shifter. However, after disassembling the whole assembly it was apparent the larger pin was seized. It had enough slop somewhere that the shifter was able to move side to side somewhat with the gunk out of the way, but not enough to get it to move between the sliders. I sprayed the pins with Deep Creep penetrating lube and beat on the shifter with a ball peen hammer. This got things to move, but they will still need to be worked more to loosen up.

Pictures to follow.

The stage I am at is quite critical - this was the primary issue I knew of when we bought the tractor. So getting to this point - resolving it - is a big milestone for us.

The next work sequence on the machine:
1. Gaskets - I want to use the full sheet gasket method mentioned earlier for gaskets I don't have/cant find easy. This will take some time - maybe a week or two.

2. Put things back together.

3. Start focusing on the engine. The engine quitting on us is why we downed the tractor to begin with, its just while it was down I had to address the transmission issue (which led in to all the weeks of work I'm wrapping up now).

 

[FlyFishn]

This is the rigging plate and rigging I set up with it to move the tractor. There is a 2" ratchet strap going under the door to a vehicle in the drive as an anchor for the front. I am thinking of putting a rigging plate up there, also, but I am not sure I want that "obstruction" in the way of the floor and rolling things by up by the door. So for the time being the strap out the door to an anchor method is fine.

 

[FlyFishn]

With the tractor chassis mobile now I could get the lift housing up and the chassis out from under it.

After I moved the tractor chassis out from under the lift housing I set the lift housing back down on the ground - where it will sit for a long while. I need to order some gasket material and will need to clean up the seal surfaces yet.

 

[FlyFishn]

Here are some pictures of the shifter assembly. There is some rust visible. However, the gunk between the sliders should be self-explanatory on the "hang up" issue.

 

[DJ54]

Any local auto parts store should be able to get it for you within a couple days, maybe even have it in stock. What I'm seeing in most stores is Fel-Pro brand which is what I use. It comes in a few widths, and a lot more choices on length, and thickness. On thickness I'm guessing 1/16", but if you have a way to measure should give you an idea. Heck, take a piece with you, most stores have a set of digital calipers to measure with.

If you're not sure what type to use, I checked out Fel-Pro's site and they have a technical page and a 1-800 number to call to answer customer questions : Customer Service, Support & Contact Info | Fel-Pro Gaskets Bad thing is their hours are roughly 7:30 to 4:30, sometimes hard for the working guy on dayshift to call unless it's at break time, or lunch time. I mainly use the Fel-Pro Karropak which seals against oils, mainly on final drive components. That and sealed with a brush on sealer made by Permatex. I've used several such as High Tack, Aviation, 300, etc. used for the same purpose on the same type of gaskets. The main thing I look for is one that doesn't dry out and get brittle.

If a little squeezes out when you're done cleanup is easy with a spritz of brake/carb cleaner and wipe it off.

 

[FlyFishn]

You may want to consider making your own, it's really not all that hard.

You'll want the surface cleaned up. For smaller area gaskets, cut a piece slightly larger that needed. Lay it on the piece you're making the gasket for. Take the pointed end of the hammer and tap out the bolt holes first. I have multiple ball pein hammers in the 6 oz. to 12 oz. range specifically for this purpose.

Can you detail your hammers a bit more?

I am looking at this autobody repair set that has a pointed hammer also. Is that adequate for the holes?

Amazon.com

What have you found to be the most useful? What really comes in handy that you use once in a while but are really glad you have it?

 

[DJ54]

Just a basic ball peen hammer works best like pictured below, the body hammer with pointed end is too pointed, it will pull/draw the gasket material inward, tried one of those many, many years ago. 8-to-12-ounce hammers work good with the ball end (rounded/domed end) with a more prominent/pointed end. Seems newer hammers in store are blunter. On larger bolts it's best to tap around the hole numerous places to make the initial cut, then once the gasket material fibers are basically cut, you can center the hammer on the hole take another hammer and with a few light taps finish cutting the material.

When making gaskets for the transmission case, that little tab will be in the bolt hole, pull material to the side and take a small screwdriver or shop pick push down on one side and it should turn so you can get ahold of it and pull it out. Lay material back down and run a bolt in to hold it in place, then go to the next hole, and so on. Get all of the bolt holes cut first and insert bolts.

On a piece like that with a straight edge on one side I use the factory edge of the material even with it to help keep it aligned. Next, start tapping on the inside of the case on about a 45º angle, you'll want to tap right on the sharp edge of the case. I'd advise starting on the side that has some material hanging over the edge, it will help keep the material from pulling inward. Once you go an inch or so, you can turn the hammer over and use the flat end and make faster progress until you get close to a corner. I'm assuming the corners are somewhat rounded so switch back to the peen end. Cut/tap around the corner, go another inch or so, then back to the flat end until almost to the next corner then switch back.

You don't need to hit hard, just some light to medium taps to start with until you see what it takes to cut the material. On a long run you may tap an inch or so, then tap back to make the clean cut, or flip the hammer and use the other side to make the clean cut.

Do know you'll have some fuzzies on the edges. For these, take a sharp box cutter knife and rake backwards on the edges. You'll want to hold the gasket close to where you're scraping and only go a few inches at a time. You may still have a few hanging on what was the lower side, just adjust the angle on the knife to wipe them off.

If there are alignment dowels, tap it with the flat end to mark it, then tap it at a 45º angle as most have a slight beveled end. Tapping on a 45º will cut it below the bevel if there is any. You should be able to push the material down over the dowel and continue. Just be careful pulling it back off to clean up the fuzzies.

It may sound a whole lot more complicated than it really is but isn't. It would be nice if you had a smaller piece to experiment with and gain some feel and confidence. But just take your time and you'll get it.

If you have any 8-12 oz. ball peen hammers in your toolbox, they'll probably work fine. I looked up new hammers at several big box stores, and Ace Hardware and they all seem to have pretty blunt peen ends. All of mine have come from Flea Markets and yard sales and have never paid over $3 ea. for them. Got to say I was surprised when looking up new ones. I've probably have 25-30 of those hammers with the correct points on them but still pick them up when I see them for a decent price. Having 4 shops, and several tractors with toolboxes they have a tendency to migrate off so I try to keep a good stock to save hunting one up.

I'm the same way with 1/2" and 9/16" wrenches. If it's made in U.S.A and $2- $3 it's mine. Never have enough as I may have 2-3 things I'm working on at the same time and usually leave the tools with what I'm working on so as not to have to chase them down. I hit the jackpot 2 years ago on our way to Johnstown Swappers Day stopping at a yard sale we stop at every year. 4 older gents get together and are selling off/downsizing their shops. Had this box of wrenches for $1 ea. I had half of them in my hand, and the guy looked at me and said $10 take the whole box which included the elusive 10mm wrench. DEAL..!! Got the Vise-Grip welding pliers for $5. It was a good day.

 

[DJ54]

***What have you found to be the most useful? What really comes in handy that you use once in a while but are really glad you have it?***

Got carried away above and forgot this. Gosh there are so many, but all in all I'd have to say the air die grinder. That and the 2" Roloc head and medium gasket removal discs. It sure makes cleaning up mating surfaces a lot faster. I got mine at HF probably 40 years ago, back then they were made in Japan. It was a little more than the others they had but used less air which was great using it with the small compressor I had at that time.

I still buy new specialty tools like seal inverting tool set for rebuilding hyd. cylinders, sets of torx screwdriver for working on small carbs. Crow foot/flare nut sockets to get in tight places, and the list goes on, I don't know that you can have everything. I bought some filing cabinets to keep specialty tools in and other items. Many come from Amazon, they're only used occasionally, not like I'm making a living with them, although I do have a few Snap-on tools like a torque wrench etc. I've come to the point in my life where now my motto is, "It's gonna' look good on the sale bill someday." I pity the poor souls that will have to set it up, but it's going to be a dandy..!!

 

[FlyFishn]

We go to the flea market place near Hocking Hills off rt 33 every once in a while. There are a couple of the store vendors (you rent space in there to show items then they take a percentage) that sell tools. Ill have to look in to some things there next time we go. Though, I need the hammers sooner than that.

 

[DJ54]

In the early 70's there was a place on the SE side of Columbus called Corvairs. They bought merchandise from store closures and other items. You bought tools there by the pound. IIRC like $1.49 a lb. A good place to pick up a second set of tools, seems you always needed a second wrench the same size removing bolts with nuts on the other end.

You never knew what you'd find there, even vehicles. Pulled in one Sat, morning in the early 80's and there was like 25 DeLorean cars setting there, brand splinter new after they went bankrupt. Seems they had a price tag of around $6K, half what they were selling for when in business but that'd be like $100K now. Saw a fleet of new mail Jeeps w/right hand drive. Some painted USPS colors, some not.

You can check the story by using Google and the guy's name was Sol Shenk.

 

[FlyFishn]

For the top of the transmission case the FELPRO KARROPAK material would work fine, being nothing there is pressurized. Thickness would be determined by the thickness of the original gasket they make it in several thicknesses.

It looks like the housing gaskets are .012-.014". It appears Karropak comes in a .015"/1/64" thickness so that looks to be close enough.

I found an 18"x30ft roll on Ebay for $35 and free shipping. Id say that is a good deal - stock for other projects too.

 

[DJ54]

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Now to find a steam iron to flatten it out. You may even already have one that's not used around the house anymore. Give the material a good spritz of water and just iron the "roll" out of it. It may take 2-3 times as big as that piece will be but flattens it out nicely. I use a piece of scrap plywood and sawhorses as an ironing board.

If you don't have one, they're fairly cheap for $10 or so at Wally-World. Secondhand stores even less.

That big of a piece should literally last you for years. Just store it in the dry, I don't know that it goes bad. Here, for cheap storage, I've been buying 4 drawer filing cabinets from Habitat for Humanity which are probably 30 years old back when they were made pretty heavy. I'm assuming these came out of offices. Cheap storage cabinets for $20 ea. Great for storing specialty tools, filters, etc. and best of all mouse proof. Just some food for thought.

 

[FlyFishn]

Well the gasket making process took a bit to figure out. We started on the larger rear end housing and had to re-do it. The ring gear sticking up screwed up the stretching over of the gasket material. We tried to walk it around and fold the gasket material back over the ring gear once we got the inside cut a bit. Somehow we still ended up with about 1/2" extra on the other side that wouldn't sit right.

We re-made the gasket a 2nd time with a slice in the middle to let the ring gear through. That way we could lay the exterior flat on the housing from the start.

Before I get to any of the pictures - we're at a pretty big stuck point. I can't get the shifter forks lined up with the slider gears. I had the transmission housing sealed thinking I was OK, but I got the trans in 4th gear and it would not shift back in to neutral. The shifter went, but it was still locked in gear. My assumption is the fork missed the slot for the slider gear and was able to engage it, but not disengage it.

After fighting with the forks and slider gears I did get a tape measure out to try to line up the forks and sliders starting from the 1st set closest to the engine - the range gears. Somehow I'm still screwing things up.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom?

My main conundrum with this one is I don't have all the time in the world to keep "test fitting" once I get the gasket sealant on. It does dry - which is where I am now. I had to tear it apart and have to start over with the scraping and surface prep.

My goal is to get things to line up so the cover and forks go right in to place routinely to build confidence before I coat the gasket sealant. This is one major step that has to be done right now otherwise I'll loose a couple months of work finding out after everything is buttoned up that it isn't "right".

 

[FlyFishn]

Here are some pictures of what we did do so far.

This is a contrast between the non-prepped transmission housing and the prepped rear end housing. I used a polycarbonate disk from Harbor Freight. I've used these disks for surface prep prior to painting before and have had good results. It appears to have worked here, also.

I used emery cloth around the pins and other places where I couldn't get the grinder/disk.

This is the start of the rear end housing gasket. This is the 2nd round. The 1st round did not have the slice in it for the ring gear. I used the center cut out of that 1st attempt as the material for the transmission housing.

This is the transmission housing end of things.

As mentioned in the previous post, I am having trouble with getting the forks lined up. This gasket needs to be re-made and the surfaces prepped again at this point. But the pictures do a good job describing the process.

This is the gasket sealant I am using. Hopefully it does the job and lasts.

 

[DJ54]

Your gaskets look great..!! I use several different Permatex brush on sealers, I've had good luck with taking parts back apart if needed without harming the gasket if I'm careful.

If it were me, I'd probably do a dry assembly first before putting the sealer and gasket on and make sure the shifters do what they are supposed to do. With the main transmission shifter and range selector in neutral, you could crib the gear shift mechanism up on 2 X 2 wood blocks. Might give you enough room to look through from the side with a good bright light and get the gears aligned to match the forks with a long screwdriver or something similar.

Most I've dealt with the top has to drop straight down. Having a helper makes it a lot easier to pull the cribbing then drop it down. I'd put the 4 end bolts in and snug with a wrench just beyond finger tight to make sure the shifter mechanism doesn't move, then see if everything shifts as it should. If it does, pull it off, prep the surfaces and go through the process again.

If memory serves me correctly seems I remember you having the shift assembly apart. Just be sure the shift rails, forks and detents are in the correct positions. Looking at the first picture, although it appears to be in first or third gear's the shifting forks side by side sort of throws me, but could be the way it is. Just so happened to do a Google image search and found a shift tower for a 444 on ebay. Even through it appears to be in neutral, the forks are staggered. Just doesn't seem possible for them to end up, side by side like it appears yours is. Maybe it's just the angle of the picture.

 

[FlyFishn]

Your gaskets look great..!! I use several different Permatex brush on sealers, I've had good luck with taking parts back apart if needed without harming the gasket if I'm careful.

Thanks - and not the complement on the work, rather for the new skill. That is a big part of working on my own stuff for me - learning and growing. I've never made gaskets like this before and for all the projects I've done over the years - and will continue to do - it has already been a worthy skill to have picked up along the way here. So thank you!

If it were me, I'd probably do a dry assembly first before putting the sealer and gasket on and make sure the shifters do what they are supposed to do. With the main transmission shifter and range selector in neutral, you could crib the gear shift mechanism up on 2 X 2 wood blocks. Might give you enough room to look through from the side with a good bright light and get the gears aligned to match the forks with a long screwdriver or something similar.

I agree on the dry fit. The cribbing idea sounds like a great idea. I will have to give that a shot. I have a few options for things to use to knock the gears around if I have a decent gap in the housings to get through.

I was just trying to hold the gear shifter and drop the assembly as straight down as I could by hand. For as heavy as it is, that isn't an easy task (my back really hurts from all that yesterday). The cribbing idea will make that a lot easier for positioning. I'm thinking rigging a hoist to help support the weight also.

Most I've dealt with the top has to drop straight down. Having a helper makes it a lot easier to pull the cribbing then drop it down. I'd put the 4 end bolts in and snug with a wrench just beyond finger tight to make sure the shifter mechanism doesn't move, then see if everything shifts as it should. If it does, pull it off, prep the surfaces and go through the process again.

If memory serves me correctly seems I remember you having the shift assembly apart. Just be sure the shift rails, forks and detents are in the correct positions. Looking at the first picture, although it appears to be in first or third gear's the shifting forks side by side sort of throws me, but could be the way it is.

I did have the whole shifter apart - I had to in order to get it cleaned (what was the shift problem originally - gunked up and rusted). I did take care to assemble it the way I took it apart, after cleaning of course.

 

[DJ54]

Working on equipment by yourself can be a challenge at times. Figuring on how to get it done by yourself can be quite rewarding. An engine hoist can be a great helper at times. I bought one 40-some years ago after saving up for a while to by one. Worth every penny and still use it occasionally. Then making lift tabs from odds & ends scrap steel to go along with it. That comes with time over the years.