dieselscout80
Veteran Member
Not sure on the exact weight but it is a big chunk of cast iron.
The three point lift arms also have to be disconnected and those upper lift arm crosses can be very difficult to remove.
International 444, 1968. Progress Thread, Getting Going
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The three point lift arms also have to be disconnected and those upper lift arm crosses can be very difficult to remove.
If I can get the housing raised about 2" and set on blocks I may not need to remove the housing away from the area. I think that will give me enough room to work the last bolt out of the trans top cover. We'll see. If that would work I wouldnt have to disconnect the 3pt lift arms.
dieselscout80
Veteran Member
Not sure if that would allow you enough space to clean and reseal the opening below the lift housing between it and the rear axle housing.
There are some YouTube videos done by a Canadian guy on rebuilding one of those series tractors. I think it’s a 444 that he did.
I finally got around to more work on the old machine this evening. I got the remote valve off the side of the lift housing and had access to all the housing bolts
While I was working on it I noticed another access cover/top plate under the seat. Is there anything special in there that has to be loosened/undone in porder to get the lift housing up and away?
While I was working on it I noticed another access cover/top plate under the seat. Is there anything special in there that has to be loosened/undone in porder to get the lift housing up and away?
dieselscout80
Veteran Member
I have not done what you are doing, but I don’t think there is.
That plate is for making adjustments to the 3 point system.
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Reading through the service manual - there isn't a specific description for the 444, though they do call out the 504 and 2504 series that appears to be similar, tough I don't believe exact.
With the hydraulic lines undone, what needs to be (non-flexible lines), and the remote/aux valve out of the way for access to one of the housing bolts, it appears there is nothing really holding things up from pulling apart the housing - just the "stuff" on the outside that I've already addressed.
I'll see about getting the hoist in place this evening and see where things go.
With the hydraulic lines undone, what needs to be (non-flexible lines), and the remote/aux valve out of the way for access to one of the housing bolts, it appears there is nothing really holding things up from pulling apart the housing - just the "stuff" on the outside that I've already addressed.
I'll see about getting the hoist in place this evening and see where things go.
There are 2 more PN's I'm looking for - gaskets.
The first I believe is the gasket between the transmission case/rear end and the lift housing. The parts book doesn't show the lift housing above so I am guessing that is for a variant of models/options that mine is not, but the main transmission/rear end housing is the same so I assume the gasket for the top is the same as what fits under the lift housing. That PN is - 703967R2.
The other is the gasket between the remote/auxiliary valve and the side of the lift housing. That PN is - 3 061055R2. I've tried searching with and without the 3 in the front, space, no space. No luck - not the CNH store or Ebay.
I do have question on the lift housing cover plate. The diagram for it in the parts book shows it underneath the lift housing. I havent been that far in to it yet to see if that is there and if it comes apart in my situation or not. The gasket there is PN 751499R2, if it is needed also.
My fall-back plan is to use the goop gasket maker stuff that comes in a tube, though I would rather not do that.
The first I believe is the gasket between the transmission case/rear end and the lift housing. The parts book doesn't show the lift housing above so I am guessing that is for a variant of models/options that mine is not, but the main transmission/rear end housing is the same so I assume the gasket for the top is the same as what fits under the lift housing. That PN is - 703967R2.
The other is the gasket between the remote/auxiliary valve and the side of the lift housing. That PN is - 3 061055R2. I've tried searching with and without the 3 in the front, space, no space. No luck - not the CNH store or Ebay.
I do have question on the lift housing cover plate. The diagram for it in the parts book shows it underneath the lift housing. I havent been that far in to it yet to see if that is there and if it comes apart in my situation or not. The gasket there is PN 751499R2, if it is needed also.
My fall-back plan is to use the goop gasket maker stuff that comes in a tube, though I would rather not do that.
DJ54
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Found all three PDQ. Google can be your friend.
Although I found those gaskets, they seem pretty pricey. You may want to consider making your own, it's really not all that hard. Most auto parts stores sell 1/16" gasket material in rolls up to 18" X 36". It can be bought in larger sheets other places.
If you can get the cover out of the way to be able to work all that's really needed is proper sized gasket material, a couple medium sized ball pein hammers, the sharper point on the end the better, and most importantly a working steam iron to flatten out the rolled material, and a makeshift ironing board out of plywood, etc. And some patience. I made nearly all of the gaskets on my Farmall 130 & 140 when rebuilding the rearends & PTO's.
You'll want the surface cleaned up. For smaller area gaskets, cut a piece slightly larger that needed. Lay it on the piece you're making the gasket for. Take the pointed end of the hammer and tap out the bolt holes first. I have multiple ball pein hammers in the 6 oz. to 12 oz. range specifically for this purpose. Get eh bolt holes tapped out one at a time, then insert a bolt to hold the sheet in place. Once all bolts are in place, start tapping on the inside edge. Most castings are sharp enough hitting right on the very edge with the pointed end will easily cut the gasket material. Depending on how large of a piece you're working on like the transmission case, once you've made the initial pass seeing the edge of the case working 3" - 4" at a time, you can turn the hammer over and use the flat end to cut it more cleanly.
You will more than likely end up with a few fuzzies on the edges. For this, take a good sharp utility knife, and rake backwards on those edges, and it will take those off.
I use Permatex brush on gasket sealant. Usually High Tack, or Aviation sealer. Both seal well but if needed can be taken back apart without tearing the gasket. Re-seal and put back on.
You'll no doubt have a large piece from the center of the transmission case left over. I save those pieces in a larger box for another job, another day. I know between those 2 tractors I saved well over $200 making my own gaskets. That money saved went towards bearings & seals.
We had an old school mechanic at work that taught me that, and more than several other things. He made a lot of things, even specialized tools for certain jobs.
Although I found those gaskets, they seem pretty pricey. You may want to consider making your own, it's really not all that hard. Most auto parts stores sell 1/16" gasket material in rolls up to 18" X 36". It can be bought in larger sheets other places.
If you can get the cover out of the way to be able to work all that's really needed is proper sized gasket material, a couple medium sized ball pein hammers, the sharper point on the end the better, and most importantly a working steam iron to flatten out the rolled material, and a makeshift ironing board out of plywood, etc. And some patience. I made nearly all of the gaskets on my Farmall 130 & 140 when rebuilding the rearends & PTO's.
You'll want the surface cleaned up. For smaller area gaskets, cut a piece slightly larger that needed. Lay it on the piece you're making the gasket for. Take the pointed end of the hammer and tap out the bolt holes first. I have multiple ball pein hammers in the 6 oz. to 12 oz. range specifically for this purpose. Get eh bolt holes tapped out one at a time, then insert a bolt to hold the sheet in place. Once all bolts are in place, start tapping on the inside edge. Most castings are sharp enough hitting right on the very edge with the pointed end will easily cut the gasket material. Depending on how large of a piece you're working on like the transmission case, once you've made the initial pass seeing the edge of the case working 3" - 4" at a time, you can turn the hammer over and use the flat end to cut it more cleanly.
You will more than likely end up with a few fuzzies on the edges. For this, take a good sharp utility knife, and rake backwards on those edges, and it will take those off.
I use Permatex brush on gasket sealant. Usually High Tack, or Aviation sealer. Both seal well but if needed can be taken back apart without tearing the gasket. Re-seal and put back on.
You'll no doubt have a large piece from the center of the transmission case left over. I save those pieces in a larger box for another job, another day. I know between those 2 tractors I saved well over $200 making my own gaskets. That money saved went towards bearings & seals.
We had an old school mechanic at work that taught me that, and more than several other things. He made a lot of things, even specialized tools for certain jobs.
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Excellent info. I didn't quote the whole thing, but there is a wealth of info there.
Do you have any thoughts on the gasket materials - what to use/what to stay away from? Or are they all comparable?
dieselscout80
Veteran Member
For what you’re doing I would just use silicone as it’s not containing any pressure.
The auxiliary/remote valve attaching to the side of the lift housing would be "containing pressure" I do believe. Unless that connection is the drain/return to the tank only.
1/8" collet.
It doesn't look like the 2" roloc's will work.
Though I do have a die grinder, I don't have shop air right now. We need a good shop air compressor. I was using an old Campbell-Housfeld 20gal 110v compressor (125psi) but found the tank was rusty beyond what I was comfortable pressurizing. So I got an 11gal or so tank from Harbor Freight and plumbed the compressor to it. When we moved it just got to be a jumbled mess.
Our shop has 240v which is nice for fabrication/welding (I run a restored '66 Lincoln Round Top Idealarc and so far have had 0 power issues on that old tank). So what we upgrade to will be a 240v compressor - maybe 80gal and 5hp or 7.5hp. Right now it isn't in the budget.
That leaves me with the dremel, or I could use a 4.5" angle grinder and abrasive surface prep/paint removal disk.
DJ54
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For the top of the transmission case the FELPRO KARROPAK material would work fine, being nothing there is pressurized. Thickness would be determined by the thickness of the original gasket they make it in several thicknesses. 8-10 years ago, I bought a cheap digital caliper for lathe work, really handy for measuring other things like gasket material. That one gave up the ghost on me this winter and got a new one at Menards for around $20 just like it. Don't use it that often, but nice to have for things like this.
I ran the part number for the aux. hyd. control gasket through Bane-Welker/Circleville and shows the price @ $1.87. You may call Plain City and check that price. If it is, I'd get it through them. When it comes to hydraulic pressure, I bite the bullet and buy the OEM gasket. When I typed in the 3061055R2 P/N 3061055R3 popped up too, that one shows $30. Not sure what the difference is other than being made from a different material..?? A parts person worth their salt may be able to answer that.
I suppose silicone would work there and be much easier. I will just say I have bought more than several tractors/garden tractors to add to the collection here where a PO has used it on engine oil pans, transmission covers, and anywhere else you can use it. Apparently, their thought was if a little does a little bit of good, a lot will do a lot of good. A Farmall B I bought years ago someone had used it on the engine oil pan, had the little blobs sticking out on the outside, and was seeping. I pulled the pan and had blobs on the inside too, and some had come off, apparently washed off from the oil splashing around, it had about 1/3 of the sump screen covered. Luckily it didn't starve the engine for oil, and I just hoped the filter caught anything that may have passed through. It was the same with the gear shift cover. Flushed that well and got it cleaned out. Don't know about the long term, someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so the little B went to a new zip code.
This was back from the day of the "blue goop". Seems everything I've seen it used on it wept a little oil after a number of years. That may have had something to do with surface prep, not sure. I'd suggest just use what feels right for you.
DJ54
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- IH Farmall 656 gas/ IH 240 Utility/ 2, Super C Farmalls/ 2, Farmall A's/ Farmall BN/McCormick-Deering OS-6/McCormick-Deering O-4/ '36 Farmall F-12/ 480 Case hoe. '65 Ford 2000 3 cyl., 4 spd. w/3 spd Aux. Trans
I hear you on the air compressor. I started out with a C-H "Silver Bullet" of about the same size. Rain the die grinder with it, at times it ran the snot out of it. Painted with it too, and even with the HVLP gun it ran constantly. I was in heaven when I got my 60 gal. single stage. It served me well for 29 years and locked up last year. Replaced it with a C-H 6 hp, 60 gal. single stage. It will do what I want it to do.
I did a little research before buying it. If you dig a little deeper, you'll find they are rated by service hours, and/or running hours. Most compressors sold at big box/TSC/Rural King like DeWalt, I-R, or comparable are rated at 1,000 hrs. or, $1 per running hour. I found the C-H was rated at 5,000 service hours. Got it here:Air Compressors Direct | Your Online Air Compressor Store and they shipped it factory direct for free. If I was in my 50's again, I'd have probably sprung for a better one, age had a lot to do with it and what I need to do here now. All I can suggest is if you have a few choices in mind, read the reviews. Some you have to take with a grain of salt, as some I think were wired up with too light of wire and they burned the motor up, etc.
The angle grinder with a knotted cup brush would probably work great. I use DeWalt brand, and they seem to work great, and last. Just be careful on the sharp edges, as they will kick, don't ask how I know. They will eat you up...
dieselscout80
Veteran Member
Sorry I wasn’t clear. I’m only referring to the tank to rear axle sealing surface that is horizontal.
The valve should have o-rings IIRC.
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Does anyone have any ideas on how to get the lift housing separated from the rear end/transmission housing? My hoist is moving the whole tractor so I know I have an enormous amount of force on this thing. I tried all the hoist pressure with beating a pry bar between the two at the same time but was unable to get any sense of movement between the two.
I am lifting from only the rear of the housing where the top link attaches. I want to make sure I can break the castings apart first before I try to lift the whole assembly. So far no luck...
I am lifting from only the rear of the housing where the top link attaches. I want to make sure I can break the castings apart first before I try to lift the whole assembly. So far no luck...
dieselscout80
Veteran Member
I would make sure all bolts are out (I see one still in place on left side where ground strap is) and lines are disconnected.
Then take a thin chisel or thick putty type knife and drive it between the mating surface in multiple places and that should break it free. If not try a pry bar.
Then take a thin chisel or thick putty type knife and drive it between the mating surface in multiple places and that should break it free. If not try a pry bar.
The bolts are all completely unthreadded. I have them sitting in the holes to keep track of them - so they arent floating around somewhere else.
As to the putty knife - I can try that.
I did try a rotary hammer with a chisel (hammer only mode) for a while last night, also, with enough hoist pressure that the rear tires were just barely on the floor to keep the tractor from swinging with me pushing on it. No luck with that method, either.
I also dont want to damage the sealing surfaces wedging things between them.
As to the putty knife - I can try that.
I did try a rotary hammer with a chisel (hammer only mode) for a while last night, also, with enough hoist pressure that the rear tires were just barely on the floor to keep the tractor from swinging with me pushing on it. No luck with that method, either.
I also dont want to damage the sealing surfaces wedging things between them.
dieselscout80
Veteran Member
Here is the Canadian you tube and it shows him prying it up.
I finally got the housing separated Sunday. I took as much weight on the hoist as I could with the rear tires barely on the ground so the machine wasn't swinging when I pushed on it, then kept hammering with the rotary hammer/chisel. I moved to the other corner - right side - and got the castings to start moving apart. Once they moved I set the tractor back down and blocked the gap with 1/8" steel tabs. From there I did a combination of hoist pressure and prying.
Now the hard part is that rear lift housing has to be completely removed from the tractor chassis in order to get enough clearance to get the shifter forks clear from the transmission casting. I can't move the hoist with the weight of the lift housing so the only option I have is to move the chassis. I can't move the chassis by pushing myself, or even with a couple people, and we don't have another machine so the next route is a winch. Since I can't push a rope I need to come up with a way to rig to both ends of the tractor. That is what the past couple days have shifted focus to - fabricating a rigging plate to bolt to the shop floor behind the tractor (against the rear shop wall). I'm using 5/8" wedge anchors, 4 of them perpendicular to the direction of pull. In 3000psi concrete they are rated to about 1300lbs each. I think the weakest link would be the concrete. That said, I doubt it is going to take that loading to roll the tractor. If the trans was locked and I had to drag the tires, maybe. Its just a heavy rolling load on mostly flat tires.
More updates as I get there...
Now the hard part is that rear lift housing has to be completely removed from the tractor chassis in order to get enough clearance to get the shifter forks clear from the transmission casting. I can't move the hoist with the weight of the lift housing so the only option I have is to move the chassis. I can't move the chassis by pushing myself, or even with a couple people, and we don't have another machine so the next route is a winch. Since I can't push a rope I need to come up with a way to rig to both ends of the tractor. That is what the past couple days have shifted focus to - fabricating a rigging plate to bolt to the shop floor behind the tractor (against the rear shop wall). I'm using 5/8" wedge anchors, 4 of them perpendicular to the direction of pull. In 3000psi concrete they are rated to about 1300lbs each. I think the weakest link would be the concrete. That said, I doubt it is going to take that loading to roll the tractor. If the trans was locked and I had to drag the tires, maybe. Its just a heavy rolling load on mostly flat tires.
More updates as I get there...
