Buying Advice Input on shopping for older mid-size tractor

[GManBart]

Anecdotally, I found a 2014 Kubota B2650 on craigslist just now, $16,900 with 40 hours on the tractor. Looking on the Kubota website, this tractor new is going to cost about $22,000. That fella paid $2,500/yr or $127.50/hr to use his tractor. If he sells it at the price he wants. So, a napkin calculation tells me a tractor is worth about $1,500/yr to me. If it costs me more than that, I shouldn't buy one. I figure I will use it about 40 hours a year. However, there is no reason for me to spend my maximum cost. Why would I want to spend $18,000 when a $4,000 machine will do all my work for me? And how long can that $18,000 machine maintain its value when a $4,000 machine can do its work? It has to depreciate down to $4,000 eventually, whereas the $4,000 machine could still be worth $4,000 10 years later. Assuming we are comparing apples to apples. Besides the depreciation, its going to come to repairs (there are no 20 year warranties): number of parts in the machine, reliability of the parts, cost of parts, and ability to fix the machine myself (I'm four times cheaper than a mechanic). The 8N wasn't costing me more than a hundred $ in repairs each year. Parts are just cheap.

I'm pretty sure I found that same tractor (2014 Kubota Tractor). There are a couple of things you want to consider before doing the math. First, is that you can normally get somewhere between 10 and 15% off of Kubota online builder prices when you go to make the purchase. That takes the $22K down to as low as $18,700. The tiller is probably worth $1,200 in used, but excellent condition since that brand/size goes for $1,700-1800 new. It's still not an easy decision, but not as clear cut as it might seem.

 

[aschwerin]

So there's good value in buying a new tractor?

 

[GManBart]

"The 231 is the late 1980s - early 1990s version of the 135, itself one of the most highly-regarded small utility tractors of all time. By todays standards the 231 is a rugged and economical if rather basic work horse. The versions with the three cylinder Perkins AD152 diesel are the most desireable and most common. This engine is very highly regarded and quite economical to operate. Issues to consider vis a vis more modern machines are dry drum brakes and fully unsynchronized transmission.

SDT"

All true. I almost bought several 231s, but circumstances just didn't work out. The 231's engine is an AD3.152 which has been used in so many machines it's hard to even track....bulldozers, tractors, forklifts, etc, etc. That means you can find any part you need for one easily.

The drum brakes and unsynchronized tranny aren't ideal, but they're simple, don't normally cause problems, and aren't terribly expensive to fix if needed. There's a reason why the basic design of the 135 turned into the 231 and lasted for so long...it just works.

 

[stan33]

After 36 years, the MF240 is still in production (under license in Pakistan) and was one of the most popular successors to the 135 in the 200 series. The 240, unlike the 135, had power steering as standard (on most machines) and no Multipower (on most machines), the latter often avoided now by 2nd hand buyers, due to the expensive cost of repairs and that's if you can find the parts. Not all 135's had Multipower and some had power steering. The 2 stage clutch was standard on the 240 but optional on the 135. The 135 had 6 forward and 2 reverse, the 240 had 8 forward and 2 reverse. Both were around 46hp.

Most parts today for older MF's are cheap and very available but often of varying quality. The Perkins diesel AD3.152 also used on the 240 is tough and reliable but has a reputation for leaks (some say they leaked at the factory gate but I think that is an urban myth).
The MF240 was made I think, in the US from 1983 to 1999 and in the UK from 1979 and there are still plenty around which were made in those countries. I believe the 231's started in 1989 and were 38hp, according to TractorData.
The US/UK 240's do command a higher price than the 135's, but you get the same traditional build quality as in the 60's/70's 135's with a more modern/younger machine.
In any event unless you buy a well restored MF from this period (or a very well maintained, low hours tractor), your at least initial maintenance and repairs will probably cost quite a lot more than $200, which might just cover your replacement hydraulic oil.

Tractorhouse.com currently lists 42x135's, 22x231's and 16x240's

 

[jenkinsph]

Tractors if kept simple don't cost much to own over a ten year or longer period imo. As an example I bought my used Deere 820 for $3,500 in 1997 and fixed it up with new clutch, tires, battery, seat, steering wheel, fluids and paint. In 2005 added a rops and canopy for safety reasons. After buying the newer tractors I found the 820 wasn't being used and decided to sell it. Sold it in 2014 for $6,000 so after buying the tractor and fix ups totaling $7400 I used it for about 17 years for $1400 and two weeks of my time for labor. Having a good little tractor available in good shape for $82 per year is about as cheap as it gets. Yeah those John Deeres are expensive alright.

 

[motownbrowne]

So there's good value in buying a new tractor?

Yes, definitely good value in many cases. I paid 24,500 for my MX 4700. In that size tractor there was no used equivalent at least in my market that was as good of a value. My criteria is pretty specific: I needed narrow ag tires, 4wd, loader with SSQA, and a hydrostatic transmission. Nothing I could find used had all of those features. I could find plenty of used machines with industrial tires for about 20% less than their original purchase price, but after swapping the tires out, my price would have only been about 10% less than buying a new machine, so that's what I did.

Yes, you lose some value by "driving it off the lot" but nowhere close to what a car loses. That B series will probably be worth what that guy sells it for for the 10 years. Same with my MX. I'm sure I could sell it now for 22,000 and it's not gonna go down much until it has over 1000 hours on it. Especially if I get a coat of wax on it once a year.

What will a 18,000 tractor do that a 4,000 tractor won't? Well, 18,000 would actually buy you a brand new 4x4 tractor with a loader. I know you could pick up a l2501 fit for that from Kubota. You could get even more bang for your buck from a Korean brand. Used, you should be able to get a pretty sweet machine less than 10 years old. The difference in capability and safety between a modern 4wd with a roll bar and an old Ford is huge. And there's lots of options between $4000 and $18000. I just paid $5500 for a New Holland TC-29D. A little more HP than an 8n, live power, live hydraulics, hydrostatic, 4wd, roll bar, hydraulic remote, swivel seat, the works.

Keep in mind, we don't care what you do. An old 3000 or 4000 Ford is a good tractor and won't break the bank. There's better tractors out there though. If you think 6 gears is enough, don't want power steering, and don't care about a roll bar, then you know what to do.

 

[tthopskin@yahoo.ca]

I need to get notifications turned on.

motownbrowne, I see your point (except I think 6 spd would be enough for me, and I'm not sure I need power steering without a bucket). I do need to get what I need when I spend my money.

NC419N, what year is good for a "newer" 2000 or 3000? I will have to check serial/model numbers to learn the year, yes?

ovrszd, I could be mistaken - and would like to know if I am - but there must be a sticker price for that "new tractor smell". A good investment shouldn't be losing value after being used a couple times. Anecdotally, I found a 2014 Kubota B2650 on craigslist just now, $16,900 with 40 hours on the tractor. Looking on the Kubota website, this tractor new is going to cost about $22,000. That fella paid $2,500/yr or $127.50/hr to use his tractor. If he sells it at the price he wants. So, a napkin calculation tells me a tractor is worth about $1,500/yr to me. If it costs me more than that, I shouldn't buy one. I figure I will use it about 40 hours a year. However, there is no reason for me to spend my maximum cost. Why would I want to spend $18,000 when a $4,000 machine will do all my work for me? And how long can that $18,000 machine maintain its value when a $4,000 machine can do its work? It has to depreciate down to $4,000 eventually, whereas the $4,000 machine could still be worth $4,000 10 years later. Assuming we are comparing apples to apples. Besides the depreciation, its going to come to repairs (there are no 20 year warranties): number of parts in the machine, reliability of the parts, cost of parts, and ability to fix the machine myself (I'm four times cheaper than a mechanic). The 8N wasn't costing me more than a hundred $ in repairs each year. Parts are just cheap.

look up tractor data . com look at the tractor you want see how meany made and options .i was going to buy a MF one time checked on tractor data and it was only made one year ..that made my mind up fast .and 2 stage clutch works great bush hoggin you can stop the tractor and keep the hog going

 

[ovrszd]

ovrszd, I could be mistaken - and would like to know if I am - but there must be a sticker price for that "new tractor smell". A good investment shouldn't be losing value after being used a couple times. Anecdotally, I found a 2014 Kubota B2650 on craigslist just now, $16,900 with 40 hours on the tractor. Looking on the Kubota website, this tractor new is going to cost about $22,000. That fella paid $2,500/yr or $127.50/hr to use his tractor. If he sells it at the price he wants. So, a napkin calculation tells me a tractor is worth about $1,500/yr to me. If it costs me more than that, I shouldn't buy one. I figure I will use it about 40 hours a year. However, there is no reason for me to spend my maximum cost. Why would I want to spend $18,000 when a $4,000 machine will do all my work for me? And how long can that $18,000 machine maintain its value when a $4,000 machine can do its work? It has to depreciate down to $4,000 eventually, whereas the $4,000 machine could still be worth $4,000 10 years later. Assuming we are comparing apples to apples. Besides the depreciation, its going to come to repairs (there are no 20 year warranties): number of parts in the machine, reliability of the parts, cost of parts, and ability to fix the machine myself (I'm four times cheaper than a mechanic). The 8N wasn't costing me more than a hundred $ in repairs each year. Parts are just cheap.

"Sticker price for that "new tractor smell". This is true. Especially true if you don't plan to keep it long term, decades. If on the other hand you DO plan to keep it decades, that smell gets pretty cheap. Mostly because it will run almost operational cost free for several years. I paid $43K for my M9540 Kubota. Have owned it 4 years, putting almost 1000 hours on the ticker. I could sell it now for $39K. So, $4K for 1000 hours. That's $4.00 per hour and the security of never, never having it fail to function or need any repairs. As the years go by that cost per hour will diminish even more.

On the other hand a year ago I bought a 1984 Ford 3910FWD for $8500. Did $2500 in repairs including new rear tires. So I have $11K in a very dependable tractor that will hold it's value well. Unless it faces catastrophic failure, it will most likely always be worth $11K. In this case I've avoided depreciation. But it cost me $2500 to do it. I've put 80 hours on it. To date it has cost me $31.25 per hour to run this older model tractor and I spent approximately 50 hours in my shop splitting it in two to install a new clutch, totally diassembling the front axle assembly and rebuilding it plus repairing half a dozen other minor issues that were needed. As the years go by that cost per hour will diminish somewhat. That is if I avoid the catastrophic failure mentioned above. If not, then back in the shop and add more to the hourly operational cost.

So, in your case, if cost of operation per year is your primary concern you need to stay with the ole 8N. If you wish to bring yourself into this Century in terms of tractor productivity you will be fooling yourself to think your cost per hour of operation is not going up.

Not picking on your 8N, I grew up on one. My little JD2210 that I mow my lawn and push snow with will outwork your 8N. Has a better 3pt lift system. Has a better PTO system. Has 4wd, Power steering, wet brakes, comfortable seat, front hydraulics and will run on 1/3 of the fuel.

I was only questioning your budget to better guide myself and others as to what tractor you can "afford" within that budget. There are plenty of $2K-$4K tractors around to buy if that's in your financial budget. Just expect to spend money on them and initially it will be more than your annual budget on the 8N. Remember, if these tractors were in perfect condition you wouldn't be buying them for $2K-$4K.

 

[aschwerin]

No shortage of advice in this forum Thanks...

I'll read more thoroughly later, but my impression is that I *can* buy an older tractor because I have rather low requirements for features. And if I do buy an older tractor, it might be a good strategy to look for top condition rather than low price.

 

[Bigfoot62]

. . . Ford. 2000 - 4000. 2000 looks light, 4000 heavy. Maybe the 3000/3600?. . .

I have a 1981 Ford 2600 diesel with about 2000 hours on it. It's been a great tractor.
This is a list of the total repairs for the last 35 years:
1 fan belt.
1 rear wheel seal.
1 PTO seal.
1 new battery cable.
2 new front tires. (rear tires are original)
Several batteries.
That's it. Couldn't ask for more.

It will easily handle a 5' bush hog, 6' tandem disc and a 6' box blade.

The 2000-4000 series are good too. Just realize that diesel engines and power steering were optional on those. (and, of course, they're older)

On Edit:
Just looked up the TractorData page on the 2600 series. According to that, some of them were gas with manual steering also, but I've never seen one.

 

[ovrszd]

I have a 1981 Ford 2600 diesel with about 2000 hours on it. It's been a great tractor.
This is a list of the total repairs for the last 35 years:
1 fan belt.
1 rear wheel seal.
1 PTO seal.
1 new battery cable.
2 new front tires. (rear tires are original)
Several batteries.
That's it. Couldn't ask for more.

It will easily handle a 5' bush hog, 6' tandem disc and a 6' box blade.

The 2000-4000 series are good too. Just realize that diesel engines and power steering were optional on those. (and, of course, they're older)

On Edit:
Just looked up the TractorData page on the 2600 series. According to that, some of them were gas with manual steering also, but I've never seen one.

To get 35 years out of a pair of rear tires a couple things had to happen.

1. No heavy pulling?

2. Parked inside?

Very dependable tractors!!!

 

[stan33]

No shortage of advice in this forum Thanks...

I'll read more thoroughly later, but my impression is that I *can* buy an older tractor because I have rather low requirements for features. And if I do buy an older tractor, it might be a good strategy to look for top condition rather than low price.

It depends. When buying a classic car, someone once said to me "buy the best condition you can afford because it will nearly always cost more to restore than they are worth".
However, having said that, it depends how much work you can or are willing to do yourself and what the price/condition is and some of it comes down to luck.
When it comes to older 2nd hand cars or tractors, unless fully restored, there is nearly always the 'catch-up factor', ie catching up on all the things the previous owner didn't do.
My advice, do your research. Know exactly what you are looking for and how much they are worth and in what condition. One other thing to remember is this, the price people advertise at and the price they will actually accept, are often (at least in this country), two very different things....most people, I find, try it on with the price when advertising.
You never know, you might just find a low priced bargain, in great condition. Good luck.

 

[ovrszd]

It depends. When buying a classic car, someone once said to me "buy the best condition you can afford because it will nearly always cost more to restore than they are worth".
However, having said that, it depends how much work you can or are willing to do yourself and what the price/condition is and some of it comes down to luck.
Regardless of how much you spend and the condition, when it comes to older 2nd hand cars or tractors, there is nearly always the "catch-up factor", ie catching up on all the things the previous owner didn't do.
My advice, do your research. Know exactly what you are looking for and how much they are worth and in what condition. One other thing to remember is this, the price people advertise at and the price they will actually accept, are often (at least in this country), two very different things....most people, I find, try it on with the price when advertising.
You never know, you might just find a low priced bargain, in great condition. Good luck.

I agree. Especially concerning the "things the previous owner didn't do". Generally sellers don't get their equipment in tip-top condition prior to selling.

 

[aschwerin]

"On the other hand a year ago I bought a 1984 Ford 3910FWD for $8500. Did $2500 in repairs including new rear tires. So I have $11K in a very dependable tractor that will hold it's value well. Unless it faces catastrophic failure, it will most likely always be worth $11K. In this case I've avoided depreciation. But it cost me $2500 to do it. I've put 80 hours on it. To date it has cost me $31.25 per hour to run this older model tractor and I spent approximately 50 hours in my shop splitting it in two to install a new clutch, totally disassembling the front axle assembly and rebuilding it plus repairing half a dozen other minor issues that were needed. As the years go by that cost per hour will diminish somewhat."

ovrszd, you double counted your $2500 in repairs. You can just as well include the $2500 in repairs into the investment price, which happens to equal the tractor's value. It looks like you have 50 hours of labor spent on 80 hours of tractor use.

 

[aschwerin]

Jenkins story about his John Deere and Bigfoot with his Ford 2600 is what I am thinking about. It can be very inexpensive to own a tractor, and I have had that experience with many other machines in my life. My knowledge of tractors is quite limited, which is what I am seeking to expand here. Stan33, I thought this was my research

As stated in the OP - swivel seats, loader, 4WD, etc. are not on my shopping list. 35+ HP, live or at least two-stage PTO, reliability are the sort of things I am willing to invest in. I've had some good experiences buying well-maintained single-owner vehicles. And the primary attraction of buying a new tractor is getting to be that single-owner who knows nobody but yourself has abused your machine.

I appreciate learning more about the MF 231/240 etc. In another discussion I found good recommendations of International B-275 and 414 and related tractors. There are some good-looking ones in the area.

I'm looking for us to take a vacation for 10 days, so there won't be any real shopping for a little while.

 

[ovrszd]

My point to you was you may spend 3 or 4 thousand on a tractor and then spend another $2500 fixing it before it gives you any production. In my case the tractor cost was $8500. To date the operational costs have included the additional $2500 for 80 hours of use. As time goes by that will get cheaper. But I don't justify it by adding it to the value of the tractor because I have no intention of selling it.

When buying an "older mid-size tractor" you need to be prepared for worst case scenario. That's my input.

 

[aschwerin]

Yes, I think that's it ovrszd. I'm trying to gain the knowledge useful to avoiding the worst case scenario, and increase my chances of arriving at that best case scenario. Seems it may be quite dependent on my abilities to evaluate the condition of a tractor, and/or evaluate the mechanical abilities of the seller and his honesty.

 

[motownbrowne]

Yes, I think that's it ovrszd. I'm trying to gain the knowledge useful to avoiding the worst case scenario, and increase my chances of arriving at that best case scenario. Seems it may be quite dependent on my abilities to evaluate the condition of a tractor, and/or evaluate the mechanical abilities of the seller and his honesty.

Ding ding ding! That's absolutely correct. If you're not mechanically inclined and familiar with the tractor models you are looking at, bring someone who is. If you pay someone $100-300 dollars to ride along and help examine a tractor, that expenditure may save you thousands down the line. I paid my neighbor (auto mechanic-equipment operator-small time beef farmer) to ride along when I bought my New Holland. We looked over every inch of the machine together and he thought it looked very good for the price. He helped negotiate $1000 off the asking price, and then he loaded and secured the tractor on the trailer while I settled up with the seller. Worth $100? You betcha!!

 

[Bigfoot62]

To get 35 years out of a pair of rear tires a couple things had to happen.

1. No heavy pulling?

2. Parked inside?

Very dependable tractors!!!

1. Had it's share of heavy pulling and loads. For years, it was the only tractor we had to handle round bales. (hay forks on rear 3PH) But, to be honest, I think both rear tires have been booted, one of them twice. IIRC
And, the 35 year old rear tires are NOT new, but still functional. (ie: still holding air)

2. Always sleeps under the shed. All of my tractors do.

And, new clutches are probably not far off. Still doing OK for now, but the PTO clutch is almost gone. This tractor is basically my lawn mower. I have a 3 acre yard and I keep a 6' finish mower on this tractor. That's all it's done for several years now. I can probably baby the clutch and get a few more mowing seasons out of it.

 

[stan33]

Stan33, I thought this was my research

You must be joking, right. This is only one part of it.