Increasing the lift capacity of a FEL

[rScotty]

You are missing the fundamental point.

IT DONT MATTER WHICH WAY THE CYLINDER IS ORIENTED

It STILL EXTENDS to LIFT the loader

It's interesting that AI missed the same fundamental point.

I'll assume everything that the AI says it right, although I didn't bother to check it's math. A compurter ought to know math.

But none of the fancy AI explanation matters when it missed the basic point.

 

[MossRoad]

AI doesn't get it right either....

A hydraulic cylinder generally has more power when pushing than when pulling, (TRUE)as the pushing force utilizes the full surface area of the piston(TRUE), while the pulling force is reduced due to the smaller area available on the piston rod (THEY GOT THIS MIXED UP, THE SMALLER AREA IS ON THE SMALLER PISTON FACE NOT THE ROD)which is subtracted from the total piston area(TRUE); therefore, a hydraulic cylinder typically exerts more force when pushing.

Key points:

• Piston area:
  When pushing, the hydraulic fluid applies pressure against the entire piston face, generating maximum force.
• Rod area:
  When pulling, the force is applied only to the area of the piston rod (NOPE. IT'S APPLIED TO THE PISTON FACE, NOT THE AREA OF THE PISTON ROD), which is smaller than the full piston face (TRUE), resulting in less power.

 

[LD1]

Isn't breakout a function of bucket curl (measured with the standard bucket)?
Technically a point load is being lifted slightly, but as the name "breakout" shows, it's like me using a pry bar to dislodge a boulder - yes, I can dislodge a 500 pound boulder, but I'm sure not picking it up, and the loader cylinders aren't involved in breakout.

No. Common misconception.
No idea where it started or who came up with breakout force somehow having anything to do with curl, or even the mention of somehow using both functions to "increase" the lift potential.

Nope. Its simply the lift capacity AT GROUND LEVEL.

If it had anything to do with curl at all.....how could we have a spec of breakout AT PIN. Because the PIN they are referencing is the pin in which the bucket curls about....therefore the curl cylinders have no bearing on lift force at that point.

 

[rScotty]

AI doesn't get it right either....

A hydraulic cylinder generally has more power when pushing than when pulling, (TRUE)as the pushing force utilizes the full surface area of the piston(TRUE), while the pulling force is reduced due to the smaller area available on the piston rod (THEY GOT THIS MIXED UP, THE SMALLER AREA IS ON THE SMALLER PISTON FACE NOT THE ROD)which is subtracted from the total piston area(TRUE); therefore, a hydraulic cylinder typically exerts more force when pushing.

Key points:

• Piston area:
  When pushing, the hydraulic fluid applies pressure against the entire piston face, generating maximum force.
• Rod area:
  When pulling, the force is applied only to the area of the piston rod (NOPE. IT'S APPLIED TO THE PISTON FACE, NOT THE AREA OF THE PISTON ROD), which is smaller than the full piston face (TRUE), resulting in less power.

Well, good on you for doing the diligence on the AI explanation - though in fairness that the mixup error you point out might just be a matter of poor AI grammar.

Now I really am tempted to check the AI's math.... but I think I'll resist. We've already beat on this enough to know the right answer.
rScotty

 

[LD1]

Isn't breakout a function of bucket curl (measured with the standard bucket)?
Technically a point load is being lifted slightly, but as the name "breakout" shows, it's like me using a pry bar to dislodge a boulder - yes, I can dislodge a 500 pound boulder, but I'm sure not picking it up, and the loader cylinders aren't involved in breakout.

For further reference...there is actually an SAE procedure for loader testing. J732

It goes in depth on measuring breakout....but mostly applied to large wheel loaders and skid loaders. It (breakout) can be measured with either curl or lift cylinders. But it must specify which and which pivot point. And if using a combination of lift and curl, the predominate pivot must be specified.

Again it goes in depth, that machine must be at normal operating weight....if using curl, the loader arms need blocked as to not move/flex. If using the loader lift, front axle must be blocked to prevent tire deflection. If goes on to say that rear cannot be tied down, and if rear wheels lift than at that point it is considered the breakout rating.

We all know good and well there is NO compact tractor that will even come close to reaching its breakout rating with no weight on the rear, standard operating weight (no tire ballast) and not tying the rear down. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

In the real world....compact tractor loaders arent tested to the J732 spec. And breakout is simply how much it can lift at ground level. And if you have a kubota or ever saw a kubota loader manual (other MFGS may be the same)....they actually graph the lift capacity vs height in an x-y chart. And the breakout numbers match the loader lift capacity at a height of 0"

Further.....most manufactures ALSO list a "rollback" or "curl" force. It is NOT the same as breakout, the numbers are always different. And if they were one and the same it would be redundant verbiage.

 

[rScotty]

No. Common misconception.
No idea where it started or who came up with breakout force somehow having anything to do with curl, or even the mention of somehow using both functions to "increase" the lift potential.

Nope. Its simply the lift capacity AT GROUND LEVEL.

If it had anything to do with curl at all.....how could we have a spec of breakout AT PIN. Because the PIN they are referencing is the pin in which the bucket curls about....therefore the curl cylinders have no bearing on lift force at that point.

I've always wondered how loader manufacturers calculated "Breakout". It's a handy word, but is there really such a formal definition of "breakout"?

I admit that your definition of lift at ground level is nice and simple. And it does avoid the problem of calculating curl about the pin.

What I'm thnking is in the real world when the FEL bucket is driven into the pile and won't lift, most of us do try to break out the load by backing a little and then adding some curl to the lift. So the manufacturers could certainly define "Breakout" more usefully for us.

Maybe breakout could be a combination of lift plus rotation from pin to the CG of the mass in the bucket. After all, that is the way most of us think of it . And measuring from pin to the CG eliminates the zero in the moment calculation.

Just musing on a snowy day,
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

No. Common misconception.
No idea where it started or who came up with breakout force somehow having anything to do with curl, or even the mention of somehow using both functions to "increase" the lift potential.

Nope. Its simply the lift capacity AT GROUND LEVEL.

If it had anything to do with curl at all.....how could we have a spec of breakout AT PIN. Because the PIN they are referencing is the pin in which the bucket curls about....therefore the curl cylinders have no bearing on lift force at that point.

I’m not convinced that’s true. Skid loaders have a much less lifting curve than tractors do. They can pretty much reach the tipping load at any height. Skid loaders also rate the tipping load which is a more accurate representation of their true ability. They also rate the breakout force. Excavators also rate the bucket breakout force. The excavators bucket breakout force is frequently equal to or exceeding the machine weight which is much more than the machine could actually lift off the ground.

 

[mike69440]

Here is a tidbit of info on bucket curl, i.e. rollback force. When curling, the pressure is simply applied to the rod side of the piston, however when reverse rollback is used to dump or backdrag, on many tractors the pressure is applied to both sides of the piston, thus intentionally limiting the reverse rollback force to rod area x the pressure. This makes for a fastest dump cycle, & limits the force protecting the cylinder from buckling.

 

[LD1]

This is what is in every kubota loader manual (for at least the last 20 years)

Gotta watch the unit of measurement. Some are in newtons, some in lbs, and some in kg

But bucket rollback force is a measurement all on its own.

And if you look at the graphs (which is in KG for loader lift).....they match exactly at the various heights with breakout being 0" of lift height

 

[LD1]