In-Home Multiple Dog Management

[VABlue]

I've trained retrievers for hunt tests for ~15 years, or so, and currently have 6 - 2 ret, 1 GSP, 1 beagle, and 2 yorkies. That list was one of the best I've ever seen for general advice! The GSP is aggressive around food/treats, so he lives in our gated bedroom. The FCR and beagle are crated for a good part of the day as they are young and still learning. The yorkies and 10yo lab (the best trained) have free run within the gated off kitchen/living room area. The yorkies have a couple of 'protected' areas where they go when anyone starts getting excited - noisy, playful, running, etc. They are the cause for every gate and separation - too small to keep safe otherwise.

As for #'s 1 & 2, I agree with them with an aggressive dog. Although my GSP, lab, and FCR (all ~equal size) eat together, they are not left alone.

Basic obedience training, exercise, and interaction will keep most issues at bay. It's too bad that most people won't spend any time with their dogs, let alone actually train them to behave properly.

 

[czechsonofagun]

Thank you all for pitching in. I would be the first one to let them figure out the pecking order, but Clementine is - hmmm, what word would describe her the best?, hysterical maybe. When she is fighting she goes nuts and will not step down, back off even when the other dog is already submissive. From my experience, when I pull her of off another dog I have to hold her for a while, otherwise she will go and attack again.

Very typical situation, that finally made me put her on the line was getting home. We would get home and Venus (older dog, great pyr) would be laying by the gate and when Clementine saw us coming home she would immediately attacked Venus. Or Venus escapes - very typical for pyrs - and comes back and Clementine attacks her.

Anyway, this is our pack: 2 ADTs - Montmorency is 8 and Clementine is 6; Great Pyrenese Venus (the name came from the rescue, not from us) is 9 and Rupert is a mostly lab and one year old.

Monty is 95 pounds or so and very laid back smart dog, my best buddy and the onlty reason he does not answer phones is because of missing opposing thumb Monty loves to roam the night and guard our place and typically sleeps all day long. He is a very nice dog, never growls at people or shows temper with people - but he kills anything that shows up on our land. I lost count of foxes, coons, rabbits, cats, mice and rats I had to dispose.


Clementine(80#) is a fighting dog, her games are rough and fast and she plays well with Rupert the puppy. She is always ready for action, but we believe she is afraid of darknes and at night typically barks a lot, unlike Monty who is a silent killer. It is useful to send them out together at night to help critters escape the jaws of death.

Venus is a pyr. She is skiny, lot of her but around 60 pounds. She looks like stuffed fluffy toy and all she wants is to be left alone, lay on the pond pier in the morning and hide under a bush the rest of the day. We got her in bad shape - she was pretty jumpy, but over the years she really calmed down and the only issue is escaping and marking bigger territory through neighbors back yards.

Rupert is a lab mix, you can see shade of brown on his ribcage, he was a dog for our youngest and he is just the most loveable puppy you could imagine - if you know labs, you know what I mean. He is also spoiled rotten and he is basically tolerated to sleep in chairs and climb beds and such. He is now the fastest and tallest dog, he weights only 74 pounds, but he can really put that mass in motion.

They would all get along easily except for Clementine, she attacks Venus and during the fight she snaps and she has to be pulled out of the fight or she would hurt the other dog, since she goes berserk on a fight.

There you have it, crazy place, lots of dogs, lots of fun - but we like the way we live.

 

[gauthier]

I've enough trouble doing out of home dog management for many years,couldn't never want no in home management.

 

[Sigarms]

Clementine is - hmmm, what word would describe her the best?, hysterical maybe. When she is fighting she goes nuts and will not step down, back off even when the other dog is already submissive. From my experience, when I pull her of off another dog I have to hold her for a while, otherwise she will go and attack again.

You have three options as I see it from what you've described

1. Get professional help
2. Find the dog another home with no other animals
3. Put the dog down

There you have it, crazy place, lots of dogs, lots of fun - but we like the way we live.

Having a dog that attacks other dogs in your care on a regular basis would not be lots of fun for at least myself. If anything, you're opening yourself up for a major lawsuit down the road.

Very typical situation, that finally made me put her on the line was getting home. We would get home and Venus (older dog, great pyr) would be laying by the gate and when Clementine saw us coming home she would immediately attacked Venus. Or Venus escapes - very typical for pyrs - and comes back and Clementine attacks her.

Option 3.

 

[czechsonofagun]

Having a dog that attacks other dogs in your care on a regular basis would not be lots of fun for at least myself. If anything, you're opening yourself up for a major lawsuit down the road.

Yup, the land of free and the home of the brave.... where people are afraid to use common sense because they would get sued.

I was wondering when somebody will bring up the legal aspect.

 

[CinderSchnauzer]

Clementine(80#) is a fighting dog, her games are rough and fast and she plays well with Rupert the puppy.

They would all get along easily except for Clementine, she attacks Venus and during the fight she snaps and she has to be pulled out of the fight or she would hurt the other dog, since she goes berserk on a fight.

There you have it, crazy place, lots of dogs, lots of fun - but we like the way we live.

There is fighting that involves lots of noise and action but usually not serious consequences. Then there's FIGHTING that can produce severe injury and expensive Vet bills in just a few seconds. I'm not sure which version you have from your description.

Sounds like you have a problem that could escalate, but is probably fixable, given time / effort and professional help, however, I'm not sure you could ever be highly confident there would be no regression.

If you are not prepared to take the steps necessary to keep Clem and Venus separate or to fix the problem, I suggest one of them should find a new home.

 

[dave1949]

There is fighting that involves lots of noise and action but usually not serious consequences. Then there's FIGHTING that can produce severe injury and expensive Vet bills in just a few seconds. I'm not sure which version you have from your description.

Sounds like you have a problem that could escalate, but is probably fixable, given time / effort and professional help, however, I'm not sure you could ever be highly confident there would be no regression.

If you are not prepared to take the steps necessary to keep Clem and Venus separate or to fix the problem, I suggest one of them should find a new home.

I was wondering the same thing. Often there is a lot of sound and fury along with snapping of teeth, but no blood. I am not sure every dog can be helped by a professional trainer either. Improved maybe, but to the point where you 100% trust them?

You have given a difficult dog a home and a chance at living. The price you pay may be putting up with and guarding against unwanted behaviors.

What do you do when Clem gets after Venus? As I understand it, you need to let Clem know nothing happens that you don't allow. That's the theory I know from our own dog that can be repeated and reinforced, but it may not take. Venus, as a 9 yr. old Pyr, if she is a purebred Great Pyr, is an old dog.

Dave.

 

[Sigarms]

Yup, the land of free and the home of the brave.... where people are afraid to use common sense because they would get sued.

I would think common sense HELPS prevent you getting sued, and I have no issues with people getting sued who don't practice common sense, and who through their own inactions, cause physical harm to others or others property (pets included).

Personally, I've never been involved in a lawsuit. I have been on jobsites where I've tried to help in a situation when a person brings up the possibility of a lawsuit, and at that time, I walk off the job immediately and thank them for bringing this to my attention. At that point, they (people who mention a lawsuit) usually apologize.

HOWEVER, you have a dog that has shown agression numerous times. Your dog gets off your property and causes a problem (God forbid with a child let alone someone elses dog), you can (and should IMO) be held responsible for the actions of your animal, particularly if the animal has known agression traits.

There is fighting that involves lots of noise and action but usually not serious consequences. Then there's FIGHTING that can produce severe injury and expensive Vet bills in just a few seconds. I'm not sure which version you have from your description.

I was wondering the same thing. Often there is a lot of sound and fury along with snapping of teeth, but no blood.

Here are the hints that are mentioned by the OP that give me the impression that the dog in question is "out for blood"

When she is fighting she goes nuts and will not step down, back off even when the other dog is already submissive. From my experience, when I pull her of off another dog I have to hold her for a while, otherwise she will go and attack again.

Clementine saw us coming home she would immediately attacked Venus.

she attacks Venus and during the fight she snaps and she has to be pulled out of the fight or she would hurt the other dog, since she goes berserk on a fight.

I could be wrong (as usual) but sounds like the animals "prey mode" is in high drive when these incidents occur and the animal isn't trying to figure out it's place in the home.

As many "in depth" discussions I have defending the Pit Bull breed on this forum, I have no qualms needing to destroy an animal if it has shown high agression numerous times and can't be socialized. One sad fact I have learned with working with dogs is that they all can't be saved (perhaps they can, but it's a question of time, money and enviroment that is hard to obtain).

I sincerely don't envy your position, but some hard choices will have to be made, or sooner or later chances are something bad will happen.

If you do find the animal another home, you need to ensure that the people taking the animal knows about ALL of it's traits and tendacies.

Per Miss Johnson, who the OP mentioned made a "good read"

Each dog is different. Each situation has to be independently evaluated. If dog fighting in your home is just an inoccasional nuisance, do what you need to do to live with it and prevent fights. However, if the situation'smaking your life or your dog's life miserable, be willing to carefullyplace a dog with another loving family and get back to having a harmonious home. Life's too short to be miserable, and your dog's life is even shorter. Make sure it's a good one. If you place one dog, be alert tochanges in pack dynamics. Another dog might try to take the first dog's place as antagonizer.

Although I don't agree with everything she states, this is good advice IMO.

 

[czechsonofagun]

I was wondering the same thing. Often there is a lot of sound and fury along with snapping of teeth, but no blood. I am not sure every dog can be helped by a professional trainer either. Improved maybe, but to the point where you 100% trust them?

You have given a difficult dog a home and a chance at living. The price you pay may be putting up with and guarding against unwanted behaviors.

What do you do when Clem gets after Venus? As I understand it, you need to let Clem know nothing happens that you don't allow. That's the theory I know from our own dog that can be repeated and reinforced, but it may not take. Venus, as a 9 yr. old Pyr, if she is a purebred Great Pyr, is an old dog.

Dave.

Venus is rescue too, vet estimated her age, that's all we know. The fights are pretty intense, and I am around dogs whole my life - on the other hand I never watched illegal/commercial dog fight to death (and never would) - but we got blood previously. Luckily pyr has a lot of fur to get hurt easily.

 

[Northland]

Do not agree with #1 and #2.
But they did not fight over the food. It was not allowed. :thumbsup: They each had a bowl.
The Two Legs is the boss. The Two Legs decides who eats what and when. Four legs do not decide the issue.

I like parts of list but agree with Dan. I had three dogs up (sometimes 3 guest dogs) until last year when my two Danes died. These two 150+lb dogs would fight over food with each other and our 45lb husky mix but never when I was standing there. I feed my dogs 100% raw food, outside, and always wait while everyone finishes their food.

This piece excerpted from the article is not always true either-"Two males together in the same house can be a tricky proposition". I was on Dane breeder forums for years and all the breeders (99.9% women) lamented the fact that while "males would sometimes fight for food or *** the female Danes would often fight because "they hated each other." My big black Dane, Molly (RIP), was a testament to that sentiment.

I think Cesar Millan is the master of dog behaviour-Cesar Millan's Official Website | Achieving balance between people and dogs.

Check out this picture in 100% size. It is from the Canadian Retriever championships held two weeks ago on a friend's property. #6-the only woman, won the event.

 

[jimmyj]

Quite a conundrum Prokop. We almost always have 4 dogs and we've had a few problems over the years as well. Currently, we have a very unusual problem with a very large rescue dog who had aggression problems and a pig headedly stubborn Austrailian Cattle dog who won't submit.

We've really worked with the big dog and his aggression is almost completely gone (I can take food from his mouth but he still tenses up and growls). However the cattle dog is such an instinctively programmed dog he wants to be the boss and attacks the big guy. Then, all heck breaks loose. We have resorted to keeping them separately all day, every day, forever. They are fine in shifts with the other two dogs, but when they do get out together the odd time YIKES. Once, they were scrapping and I threw the cattle dog in my SUV. They tried to attack each other through the windsheild and broke it!!

Anyhow, we almost put the big guy down when we first got him but he's really turning into a sucky baby and we love them all. They all are magic with kids and the farm animals, but sometimes two dogs just won't get along.

I don't know if shifting your dogs is possible Prokop, and it's troubling that the one attacks right away. Tough situation you have there. Good luck.

 

[schmism]

you want dog advise... watch the dog whisper.

He can teach you proper pack management and what it takes to ASSERT yourself as pack leader.

how 1) and 2) are wrong.

The pack leader (you) are in charge of food for your pack. You should be able to say who gets what food and when. There should be no question about this.

If i give you food, (a proper pack leader) will also be able to take it away at any moment without fear of a reaction from the pack dog. After all Im pack leader what i say goes.

there are 2 other really important points that you need to understand to be a great pack leader
1) they are commands not! requests. your body language and tone should indicate this.
2) you will need to be physical with your pack. Watch real pack animals and alpha male doesnt just stand over there and yell at you... he comes up and bites you and says NO.... or rams you or some other physical contact to indicate that he is alpha and what I say goes.

now this isnt saying beat your dog, its saying be physical. Back up a stern command with a touch (Cesar Millan uses a kinda claw like touch to the neck area). if your out in the yard and the pack is playing get in there and wrestle with them, assert your pack leader dominance by physically dominating them.

These 3 simple things (food management, commands not requests and physical touch) is all it takes to be a great pack leader.

 

[Sigarms]

For the record, there are mutliple (successfull) dog bahaviorists who actually disagree with Mr. Millan's meathods. They however don't have a successfull, entertaining TV show (and if you don't think there is some editing on the "Dog Whisperer", I have some bridges for sale).

It's also very interesting how Mr. Millian determines what dogs he's going to "train" for his show. He's got a good gig, can't blame him for that though.

if your out in the yard and the pack is playing get in there and wrestle with them, assert your pack leader dominance by physically dominating them.

Taking a strong powerful dog whose past history is somewhat unknown, taking this course could lead you a trip to the hospital.

I'm not arguing that this type of "training" may not work, but some argue that your masking the issues that causes the unwanted behavior. The next question is if everyone in the family can be physically dominant over the animal (which my wife can't) and what happens with the dogs behavior when the "pack leader" (human) isn't in the presense of the animal? Then you can have claymore just wating to go off.

and it's troubling that the one attacks right away.

Agreed. At first, one may think it is without provocation, but the issue is what may cause this behavior, and do you have the time and means to try and correct it. Some behaviors are easier to correct than others. The problem is that when you have an animal who shows a "killer instinct" frequently (without being given a command to do so), you're going to have your hands full.

For myself, my family (which includes the animals in my care) and my neighbors, very aggressive dogs are kept on a short leash (manner of speaking, not litterally).

The problem/issue is trying to find those dogs (unprovoked agression) a good home which is a good fit.

 

[VABlue]

"The problem/issue is trying to find those dogs (unprovoked agression) a good home which is a good fit."

Precisely why I still have my GSP - I can manage the situation and prefer not to put the dog through the **** of moving him around (and thus subjecting others to unwanted aggression).

Cesar does have a good gig, but someday it'll catch up to him (if it hasn't already) in the form of a lawsuit because a dog he 'fixed' attacked and injured (or worse). Some of the cases I've seen him take have no business being in the home they're in. Inexperienced dog owners/handlers are a liability when paired with an aggressive (attacking) dog. Most times the behavior cannot be 'fixed', but can be managed. Millan's preferred method is plenty of exercise and basic obedience - and it works well, it's something EVERY SINGLE DOG REQUIRES. But it just won't matter with some cases... Some are not manageable, let alone worth the risk.

There are a boat load of methods to train dogs and deal with unwanted behavior. All of them have merit - some more than others. I don't believe in rolling around with a pack to assert dominance, but I can make two young, energetic, field trial bred (ie: high energy) retrievers and my troublesome GSP behave with simply a look. And I don't have to beat them down to do it. Its called respect - something they learn at a very young age. Millan gets that respect by wearing out the dog (exercise) and then making it behave (obedience) when it doesn't have the energy to resist. That method works. As do others...

 

[czechsonofagun]

Well, we rearranged our dogs. Venus is an indoor dog now and Clementine is outdoor. They seldom meet and when they meet it is under supervision.

So far it works well, Clementine stopped barking at night, she is not that afraid of the darkness anymore and Venus is better off with her arthritis in the house.

It seems to me, that Clementine takes it as her duty now to be the watch dog and since she has a task on her hands (paws) she puts her mind to it and behaves better.

 

[jimmyj]

Glad it seems to be working out.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

We currently have five "house" dogs, a 13 year old Picardy Spaniel, an 8 year old Blue Picardy Spaniel, and a small mongrel puppy, all females. The boys are a 7 year old Large Munsterlander and a 6 year old Lab, both rescues. We live on 93 acres of forest and meadow, so all the dogs get all the exercise they want and have no sense of confinement. We have large kennels for each dog, so they are separated when we are gone, but when we are home they just live as part of the family. Other than a little food aggression from the Lab, we have never had a fight. Bird dogs are pretty mellow.

 

[czechsonofagun]

I think you are right, I don't ever remember meeting a hunting dog that would cause trouble and/or be mean. They are typically laid back fellas.

 

[Cliff_Johns]

I think you are right, I don't ever remember meeting a hunting dog that would cause trouble and/or be mean. They are typically laid back fellas.

Quite true. Hunting dogs are bread to work as a team (backing etc.) and are oriented
toward other dogs as helpers rather than competitors.

We've fostered close to 250 dogs in our time, usually two at a time along with two or three dogs of our own. We mostly avoided fostering terriers (other than a couple pit bulls and a pedlington and maybe one or two others), but other than that we fostered all kinds of dogs and didn't have any serious injuries from fights. Part of this was luck and a preference for fostering English Setters, but part of it was also how we did introductions of new dogs.

The introduction is the most important moment and it tends to set the attitudes of the dogs toward each other for a long time to come.

If at all possible, introduce a new dog in a fenced area (not on lead!) that is neutral ground. That is, if you can introduce them where none of the dogs thinks it's home, then they are likely to get along just fine. If you introduce them at home, then your current dog will be less likely to make easy friends since they are on guard. If you have to introduce them at home, then don't pay much attention to the new dog. Your dog needs to feel like the new one isn't getting all the attention (or even most of it). Make sure your current dog(s) think introductions are fun, not stressful. If you're worried, then the dog will be too, and that's bad.

If you're really worried there will be a real fight, then bring two things: A bag of empty soda cans or something that will make a loud clattery noise that you can throw it or shake it near a fight. This usually distracts them and they have a moment to calm down, and second, a trash can lid which when worn like a shield on the back of the hand can be used to break up a real fight. People get bit by their own dogs when breaking up fights, so this is a defensive thing for you and the dogs. It's a wall between them and can also be a wall between you and the dogs. We had these on hand a few times, but never actually had to use the lid.

Remember, if there's no blood, the dogs weren't really fighting so much has having a loud disagreement (or perhaps even playing). They can draw a lot of blood quite easily when they actually want to.

Cliff

 

[czechsonofagun]

Amen to that. I got bit once by our dog when I was a kid - my fault totally of course - and it was very fast and suddenly I was bleeding. They know how to moderate their jaws.

Great trick I learned from a guy who did train German Shepherds as service dogs. If you are braking up a fight, and you are not alone, pull the dog out of the scrummage by the end opposite to the business one - i.e. drag him out by rear legs. Of course it has to be done to both dogs in the same time, but it really disorients them and your hands are safe.