Dog Training Question....

[Jstpssng]

I give you a lot of credit for trying to correct somebody else's errors. You could have a good dog with work, especially with the help of a few more friends like your BIL.
Show him the good side of life and he will probably turn out to be a very loyal pup. Then again like people, some animals are just antisocial. Only time and work will tell.

I will say this, if anyone gets a dog and ties the dog up 24/7, I really wouldn't lose sleep over that human being put down.

That's a bit extreme don't you think? I would advocate for tying them outside 24/7 in all sorts of weather for a year, to see how they like it.
My current dog lived like that, although at least he was inside an unheated garage in winter. He turned out to be a great dog, and loves people more than eating. Yet in 9 years I've never been able to break him from cowering when he gets around the same people who make a big deal of him.

 

[rgr33]

I am definitely not a dog trainer Richard, but most of our dogs over the years started out as rescues, and almost all of them came with embedded behavior problems. Not necessarily aggression, but other issues as well.

The last dog we got from an old farmer that had to sell, and move into town. Nothing much was demanded of the dog, other than being a quasi watch dog, and he did as he pleased without any boundaries enforced.
When he came here, he wouldn稚 do a darn thing he didn稚 want to, bullying our other pets, eating their food, charging neighbors out walking their pets, wouldn稚 come when called etc.

I am semi retired, and have the time, so I pretty much spent part of every day working with him. The first thing we did every morning, was do a full perimeter hike around the property, I on the 4 wheeler, Rex trying like heck to keep up.
Secondly, and this was time consuming and difficult, I never let the dog do anything without my permission, no eating, no drinking, no barking, or running up to delivery driver. Not gonna lie, many more failures at first than success痴.

It has now been over 1 1/2 years, and there are more wins than losses, but I still have to play the Alpha dog on a regular basis, as he is always testing the boundaries to see what he can get away with. He is about 6 years old now, and a really sweet guy when he痴 on his game, but we still need mini training lessons all the time. That seems to keep him engaged, as boredom brings out old behaviors.

 

[Dftodd]

Our German shepherd would do similar to your collie with the nipping. They have a strong herding instinct and thats how they go about it.

Obedience training will kerb that.

We took our shepherd to a local trainer who specializes in working dogs. His specialty was personal protection dogs but also did obedience training, which was what we were looking for in our shepherd. He has recently gotten certified in service dogs as well.

The training was as much for us as it was for our baby girl. We learned a lot through the course and was money very well spent. And it helped us out much better then the obedience classes at the local pet store.

As for your dog and how they handle other dogs of the same sex. Sometimes training helps, sometimes it doesn't.

Our shepherd is fine with dogs of the same size. As long as they can hurt her back and put her in her place, they find a happy medium.

I will not trust her off leash with a smaller dog though. She will walk up to it happy as can be, then snatch it up by it's throat and give it the death shake

So if someone stops by with a small dog, then she goes out to the fenced in back yard and we make sure and keep them separated.

 

[drssg]

I agree with the suggestions to get local help from a trainer. From your description of the situation, I think that two critical skills to develop are walking well on the leash and coming when you call.

Leash training comes rather naturally for me from my work with horses. If a horse was willing to use his strength against a human, it would be completely unmanageable. An unruly dog is more manageable, but the same principle applies. The dog needs to learn that a light pressure on the leash means he needs to come to you. If the dog starts to pull against you, respond with a short correction that is severe enough to convince the dog that he shouldn't pull against you. The correction is immediately followed by a release in pressure, so you don't get into a pulling match. A number of short corrections in a row may be required to convince the dog to stop pulling. I wouldn't use a full harness on a dog that has a pulling problem. A choke chain or even a more aggressive training collar would be more appropriate.

Teaching the dog to come when you call works in two phases. The first phase is to teach him the meaning of the command. I start with work on a leash, so I can give a gentle tug on the leash to backup the command and give him a treat and pets when he understands. The next phase is compulsory. He understands the command to come, but he now needs to understand that he MUST come when you call, even if something very distracting is going on. I find that a zap collar is very useful for this training.

These two skills combined go a long way to establishing yourself as the top dog. The dog becomes accustomed to accepting your influence over his behavior.

Good luck.

 

[Bocephous]

Backstory: Sister in law lives 30 miles away. Her next door neighbor's daughter (17/18) said she wanted a dog. Mother said "no". Low & behold, a couple weeks later, daughter picks up a dog from someone in a parking lot somewhere and brings it home. Dog gets tethered to tree outdoors. As the story gets to me, that is his life....chasing butterflies and laying about. Oh, then daughter tells mother that she (daughter) has joined the army. So Mom didn't want a dog....daughter brings dog home and then joines the Army..... AND GOT FLUNKED OUT at boot camp. (this girl must be a doozy)

Sister in law felt bad for dog so brought him here to farm sometimes to let him at least RUN and get some energy out.

Long story short.... Rufas has been with us now for call it 8 months. I affectionately (and I mean that word) call him "Crazy Boy"

I'm told he's a border collie. He's got a bobbed tail (if that means anything) He is fast as the wind, very VERY strong (about 35/40 pounds) and you can just SEE his intelligence.... he really is an intelligent dog once you start working with him.

Issues seem to be he's very (we think) territorial. He gets along with all the local female dogs.... but bring a male dog in (sister in law has a male and our next door neigbor has a male) and he goes into red mode. (hence "crazy boy")

If anyone comes to visit OTHER than sister in law, he will go bezerk. He will snap at anyone (other than us so far) but rather than trying to bite them it appears he's more nipping at them with his front teeth.

He had a guy stranded on top of his trailer using the tractor as blockage between he & Rufas.


Brother in law came to visit....he knew about Rufas and was prepared with a plan. He came with extra layers of clothing on, came in wearing welders gloves.... rufas went at him and he "defeated" rufas by holding him by the throat on the ground until Rufas realized that he lost. Within 10 minutes, Dan (brother in law) was taking Rufas out on a leash with HIS dog (female Pyrenese sp?)

Fortunately she's about 2 1/2 times bigger than Rufas so can fend him off.... they played ROUGH but it was play, not violent. (like he's done with male dog next door, coming home with blood)

In the beginning, I was prepared to take him to the pound knowing that he'd be put down. As I've gotten to know him I've come to believe that he's just terribly socialized. He's a VERY smart dog... and his only real desire is to play, play, play, play, play and play more.....then start over and do it again. Has boundless energy.

Still don't trust him in house (not 100% that he's fully house trained) AND his endless getting into things.... so he's lived most of the (mild) winter in our foyer, then on the large deck. Once weather breaks, we've got a fenced in area where he can run but for his ability, it's still restrictive. He needs a good 5-mile hard run to burn some energy off, our fenced in area isn't really big enough for his capabilities. The FARM however, is......but we can't/don't trust him to be free like all the other dogs. (he will actively go next door LOOKING for the male dog to start a fight......he has gone to the NEXT house over and aggressively jumped onto their Husky who's about twice his age BUT she (interesting that he's jumping on a female) anyway she's probably 15 years old so can't defend herself)

So when Wife & I are with him alone, he is a fantastically fun, attentive dog.

Bring a visitor over (mail person, UPS, neighbor, family member) and he goes into red zone ballistic.... but he's now able to deal with brother in law who wrestled with him.


I can't have everyone who might visit first have to wrestle my dog to prove their dominance over him.

I'm not a dog trainer, we got him when he was probably around 2-years old (just a guess, maybe 3-4 but no more) Point being he's ingrained some bad habits that we need to figure out.

Something has to give..... I have a broken wrist thanks to him (I'll spare the story). He's strong enough to pull the wife over if she walks him. Heck, he's strong enough to pull ME over if I'm not ready for his actions.... so something has to give. Rather not take him to the pound because the "good Rufas" is SUCH a fun, attentive loving dog...... but when 'Bad Rufas" shows up..... I'm almost willing to pull the trigger myself.

Any thoughts on how to "break" him from these ugly habits???

Do some research into the proper use of a prong collar. Long story shortened: My wife and I are long time dog owners, she is a vet tech. Several years ago we adopted a largish mixed breed we named "Boone."

Second day home he broke her wrist: collar wrapped around wrist, not paying attention, he takes off. He was pretty much uncontrollable on a leash.

I took him and her into our basement, fitted the prong collar correctly, attached the leash, took a few steps and "popped" the collar with force. He yiped, and settled down.

For the next week when we took our daily walk I put the prong on him and had to use nothing more than finger pressure on the leash to correct him as to his proper location while walking, which is at or behind my left ankle.

He is now the best trained dog I've ever had, for me. My wife he doesn't listen to, but dogs are pack animals, and respect is earned. If you are consistent and don't allow your set of rules to be broken most dogs will get in line. If you are weak and allow them to do what they want they will take charge.

An e-collar, properly used, can curb bad habits from a distance. I always accompany corrections with the word "NOPE" so the dog knows that whatever it is doing at that moment is unwanted behavior. I broke the previously mentioned dog from a pesky habit he had of running away with this technique/tool.

Basic leash training, for the dogs we adopt, is mostly the same. We walk as a pack every morning, same basic route, and during the walk I frequently stop, giving the command "hold up." Command to "sit," then "heel." I do this probably 30 times a walk, over and over, with the leash attached. After a week or so the dog usually catches on and the leash can be removed. I walk 3 dogs every morning, through our woods, and can keep control over all three with voice commands, so I guess my methods work, at least for me.

This short video mirrors what my results were after introducing the prong collar to Boone. Not me or my dog, but you'll get the idea.

Pulling GSD stopped in seconds Solid K9 Training - YouTube

I would not suggest pinning the dog and attempting to assert dominance. That can go very wrong in a number of ways. Use of a prong and e-collar is much safer.

 

[Jstpssng]

I agree with the suggestions to get local help from a trainer. From your description of the situation, I think that two critical skills to develop are walking well on the leash and coming when you call.

Leash training comes rather naturally for me from my work with horses. If a horse was willing to use his strength against a human, it would be completely unmanageable. An unruly dog is more manageable, but the same principle applies. The dog needs to learn that a light pressure on the leash means he needs to come to you. If the dog starts to pull against you, respond with a short correction that is severe enough to convince the dog that he shouldn't pull against you. The correction is immediately followed by a release in pressure, so you don't get into a pulling match. A number of short corrections in a row may be required to convince the dog to stop pulling. I wouldn't use a full harness on a dog that has a pulling problem. A choke chain or even a more aggressive training collar would be more appropriate.

Teaching the dog to come when you call works in two phases. The first phase is to teach him the meaning of the command. I start with work on a leash, so I can give a gentle tug on the leash to backup the command and give him a treat and pets when he understands. The next phase is compulsory. He understands the command to come, but he now needs to understand that he MUST come when you call, even if something very distracting is going on. I find that a zap collar is very useful for this training.

These two skills combined go a long way to establishing yourself as the top dog. The dog becomes accustomed to accepting your influence over his behavior.

Good luck.

If I may add an aside to your excellent post...
Something like this will help.HERM SPRENGER Ultra-Plus Training Dog Prong Collar, 14-in neck, 2.25-mm wide - Chewy.com

My last dog was a puller... this was the only thing which worked. Far from being cruel the way that some people told me, she would get excited when I put it on her because she knew that it meant we were going out in public and she loved people.

 

[Sigarms]

That's a bit extreme don't you think? I would advocate for tying them outside 24/7 in all sorts of weather for a year, to see how they like it.
My current dog lived like that, although at least he was inside an unheated garage in winter. He turned out to be a great dog, and loves people more than eating. Yet in 9 years I've never been able to break him from cowering when he gets around the same people who make a big deal of him.

Dogs are pack/social animals. The quickest way to screw one up IMO is to teather them 24/7, and I believe most research done will confirm my opinion. Worse yet, take a high energy, strong and powerful dog and teather it 24/7, the odds of aggression and territorial issues increasing are raised exponentially, and you basically can have yourself a ticking time bomb waiting to go off.

The other added aspect is if you get a dog and have to teather it 24/7, why even get the dog to begin with?

As mentioned, we've done work with fostering 2 and 4 legged critters. Your comment "Show him the good side of life and he will probably turn out to be a very loyal pup. Then again like people, some animals are just antisocial. Only time will tell." is way off the mark as well and doesn't hold water per the stats.

I've come to the conculsion that the most important time to love, nurture and train is when the critter is born and in the first stages of it's life. Sad to say, but kids and dogs are alot alike IMO in that the longer they stay in a bad situation growing up, the greater the odds that they will be screwed up for the rest of their lives. Biggest difference in the two critters is that dogs are considered property, kids are not. However, take a large active breed as a pup, and tie it up 24/7, 2 years later that dog is now around 24 years old in "human years". That's a lot of unscrewing up do to.

Will note that living "out in the country" has ruined our basic lead training. Since the two legged critters took more time than the four legged critters, we got out of fostering dogs and don't really lead train anymore (for potential new owners) as the dogs are either outside with us on our property, or if left unsupervised, in a fenced in area. We have one dog that loves long walks with the wife and I, have her on the lead (dog, not wife LOL) due to some curves/bends in the road and some people driving like idiots (not a heavily used road), but then on long straightaways, take her off lead and she genearlly never gets more than 20 yards from us and stays on the same side of the road we're walking on.

I would agree with you to the extent that life sometimes seems nothing more like a crap shoot. You can take two human adult siblings and just scratch your head over the fact that they both came from the same household / family growing up.

Also please note I stated I would not lose sleep over some people being put down

Apologies for getting off topic.

 

[Frankenkubota]

Backstory: Sister in law lives 30 miles away. Her next door neighbor's daughter (17/18) said she wanted a dog. Mother said "no". Low & behold, a couple weeks later, daughter picks up a dog from someone in a parking lot somewhere and brings it home. Dog gets tethered to tree outdoors. As the story gets to me, that is his life....chasing butterflies and laying about. Oh, then daughter tells mother that she (daughter) has joined the army. So Mom didn't want a dog....daughter brings dog home and then joines the Army..... AND GOT FLUNKED OUT at boot camp. (this girl must be a doozy)

Sister in law felt bad for dog so brought him here to farm sometimes to let him at least RUN and get some energy out.

Long story short.... Rufas has been with us now for call it 8 months. I affectionately (and I mean that word) call him "Crazy Boy"

I'm told he's a border collie. He's got a bobbed tail (if that means anything) He is fast as the wind, very VERY strong (about 35/40 pounds) and you can just SEE his intelligence.... he really is an intelligent dog once you start working with him.

Issues seem to be he's very (we think) territorial. He gets along with all the local female dogs.... but bring a male dog in (sister in law has a male and our next door neigbor has a male) and he goes into red mode. (hence "crazy boy")

If anyone comes to visit OTHER than sister in law, he will go bezerk. He will snap at anyone (other than us so far) but rather than trying to bite them it appears he's more nipping at them with his front teeth.

He had a guy stranded on top of his trailer using the tractor as blockage between he & Rufas.


Brother in law came to visit....he knew about Rufas and was prepared with a plan. He came with extra layers of clothing on, came in wearing welders gloves.... rufas went at him and he "defeated" rufas by holding him by the throat on the ground until Rufas realized that he lost. Within 10 minutes, Dan (brother in law) was taking Rufas out on a leash with HIS dog (female Pyrenese sp?)

Fortunately she's about 2 1/2 times bigger than Rufas so can fend him off.... they played ROUGH but it was play, not violent. (like he's done with male dog next door, coming home with blood)

In the beginning, I was prepared to take him to the pound knowing that he'd be put down. As I've gotten to know him I've come to believe that he's just terribly socialized. He's a VERY smart dog... and his only real desire is to play, play, play, play, play and play more.....then start over and do it again. Has boundless energy.

Still don't trust him in house (not 100% that he's fully house trained) AND his endless getting into things.... so he's lived most of the (mild) winter in our foyer, then on the large deck. Once weather breaks, we've got a fenced in area where he can run but for his ability, it's still restrictive. He needs a good 5-mile hard run to burn some energy off, our fenced in area isn't really big enough for his capabilities. The FARM however, is......but we can't/don't trust him to be free like all the other dogs. (he will actively go next door LOOKING for the male dog to start a fight......he has gone to the NEXT house over and aggressively jumped onto their Husky who's about twice his age BUT she (interesting that he's jumping on a female) anyway she's probably 15 years old so can't defend herself)

So when Wife & I are with him alone, he is a fantastically fun, attentive dog.

Bring a visitor over (mail person, UPS, neighbor, family member) and he goes into red zone ballistic.... but he's now able to deal with brother in law who wrestled with him.


I can't have everyone who might visit first have to wrestle my dog to prove their dominance over him.

I'm not a dog trainer, we got him when he was probably around 2-years old (just a guess, maybe 3-4 but no more) Point being he's ingrained some bad habits that we need to figure out.

Something has to give..... I have a broken wrist thanks to him (I'll spare the story). He's strong enough to pull the wife over if she walks him. Heck, he's strong enough to pull ME over if I'm not ready for his actions.... so something has to give. Rather not take him to the pound because the "good Rufas" is SUCH a fun, attentive loving dog...... but when 'Bad Rufas" shows up..... I'm almost willing to pull the trigger myself.

Any thoughts on how to "break" him from these ugly habits???

My Rufus was adopted and then immediately abandoned by one of the chubbies. She would take him to the dog park, remove his collar and leave him there for hours. One typically miserable late afternoon, raining, freezings, dark....there he sat, all alone looking at me. Mine was the last and only car in the lot.

So now, 5 years later, he's mine. I would have never picked this dog. He is totally dependent, has to be touching me all the time, leaner to the max. I had a boarder collie mix, this guy is all couch potato! Very very lovable and now, well behaved.

In my world, the gal who abandoned him would be in SERIOUS trouble. We seem to put bandaids on the symptoms and ignore the real problem.

 

[Richard]

First...thanks to everyone for your thoughts & comments.

I wouldn't use a full harness on a dog that has a pulling problem. A choke chain or even a more aggressive training collar would be more appropriate.

I personally agree with this logic (not knowing if I'm right or wrong) My wife however, is a genteel softie who wants to save the world. (one of her nicer aspects) What she never seems to realize though is sometimes you need to punch a bully in the nose.

I don't recall the specifics, but I was in our foyer once (earlier on) playing with Rufas, rubbing his belly, pulling his rope... I don't recall how it came about but, he nipped at my face. I don't think he was actually trying to bite me but he did nip towards me.

Out of pure reflex, I swiped at him to block it and (with open hand) essentially slapped him upside the face. It was a very interesting look on his face.... he just stopped and had a bit of a puzzled look on his face as he looked at me wondering "MAN, what are you DOING??" He immediately "toned" that down a bit and we played on without that happening.

Of course, "I" was the bad guy for "hitting" him, never mind that it was simply a reaction by me to his jumping towards my face.....I'm the bad guy, abusing him.

 

[Jstpssng]

@ Sigarms... I was referring to tying the owners outside for 24/7, not the pups. I agree 110% about not getting a dog if you're just going to tie it up. As mentioned before my current pet lived the first year of his life that way. I literally had to teach him how to be a dog; a couple of times I wondered if he would survive the experience.

To the OP; sometimes what people consider most humane is actually the worst thing for the animal. I laid into Ruger with the palm of my hand after nothing else I tried would keep him from chasing cars; he hasn't done it since.

Edit: you don't want to hurt, and certainly don't take your frustration out on him; just get his attention.