I need gravel bad!

[JB4310]

Yup I use the small process (3/4 minus w/dust) which is finish base right over soft spots, no need to remove the unstable stuff If that would be a lot of work, yes you will loose a little and may have to add more next year, of course it's tough in between when just the top 4"s is thawed and still frozen below, but that usually only lasts a week or two at the most, that would be the worst time to try and work on it whether you were adding over the top and trying to spread it or even worse trying to dig it out.
That 2" stuff might be to big unless you really got some deep soup, then it would be ideal since it is designed to be used down first under the finish base.
Just carefully spread over the top 2-3"s thick and try and stay off it for a while, when I've done it this way it's never a problem in that area the next year.

 

[Jeff244]

deerguy, you are right about the geotextile fabric. It needs at least 8" of material over it to be effective. I spent over 25 years in the asphalt paving industry and would get very frustrated when we had to some in behind an excavator that didn't install the fabric properly, or not use the proper fabric. It would create spongy areas in the base that had to be fixed before we could pave. I have always believed that for the money, you can't beat 4" to 6" of 3"+ sized stone covered with 4" to 5" of 1"+ limestone with screenings. Crushed asphalt grindings also makes a good base.
If you go the fabric route many contractors supply stores carry it. Be sure to talk to a knowledgeable salesperson regarding correct type of fabric(woven or non-woven) and proper installation.


Thanks,
Jeff

 

[riptides]

Control the water and you control the mud.

Grade accordingly and your set.

The Romans didn't have the luxury of fabric and their road systems are still in existance today.

-Mike Z.

 

[dmccarty]

I have clay. Lots of clay. When its wet I try not to drive the tractor in the woods to keep from rutting the place up. There are still tractor trails in the woods, some subtle some that are very bad, from logging 70 years ago. The soil is either very rocky or when wet it quickly turns into goo and the tractor sinks up to and over the front axle.

When I put in the driveway, the first phase was about 500 feet while the second phase is 220, I used nonwoven geo textile fabric. I put what is called in NC, ABC aka road base, which locks up real tight. In some places the gravel might be six inches deep but in most places its maybe 3 inches think and in some spots the fabric can be seen. The driveway had no problems with 7 full cement trucks, logging trucks, and general construction traffic.

Our original plan was to add more gravel after the house was built but the road held up so well we did not add more gravel right after the house was done. We have added more gravel to expand the driveway but not to thicken the base.

We do need to add gravel to expand the base in a few places to cover some of the fabric that is peaking through but mainly to build up the driveway to keep water from getting on the driveway in the first place. We have one section that is very steep that gets some slight errosion that I have to touch up every 12-18 months every so carefully with the box blade. I might have put in enough of a bump to flow the water off the downhill part of the driveway but more gravel would help. Time will tell.

I like geotextile, it has saved me a fortune in gravel and tractor work maintaining the driveway. The road we share with the neighbors is in constant need of repair. The road does not have fabric.

In the case at hand it seems like the gravel has been pushed into the mud. Not sure if it is worth removing the layer of mud and then regrading the gravel. I regrade our road every couple years buy putting the teeth down on the boxblade and ripping the gravel back up out of the clay. Then smooth it back down.

Or just figure out the old gravel is a sunk cost, put down fabric and new gravel. I suppose you could try to save what is there, its only tractor time and see if you can reclaim the gravel. If not, put then put down fabric and road base.

We have 67 stone down in a few places that we park on. This was done because eventually there will be a future building on that spot that will require the 67 stone. This stuff is up to 1.5-2 inches in size with no fines. Its does not lock togather like ABC/roadbase and is easily rutted up by my truck. Gravel with no fines really does not lock up that tight for us.

Later,
Dan

 

[Jeff244]

A lot of people swear by geotextile fabric. And being new here, I don't want to step on any feet or be argumentative, but in my experience, geotextile fabric has rarely been efficient cost wise. Now a large part of that may be that the labor of paying someone to lay it is expensive. You need to overlap it, cut it and most importantly you cannot drive a truck on it until enough stone is spread.. We had do dump the stone and carefully push it onto the fabric. After we got 5" to 6" of stone on the fabric the trucks could drive over it. If the fabric was tore, we had to replace a fairly large area of it. It's been a while since I bid jobs, but I seem to remember that the cost of adding the fabric was roughly equal to adding about 4" of stone or another 1.5" of asphalt. Of course all of my experience has been in my geographic area at the time(Northern IL) and it may not equate to other areas.
dmccarty, I assume that you graded the areas before you installed the fabric for proper drainage. That in itself would help along with a few inches of stone on top of the clay. If it sheds the water, it should remain solid. Again, I don't know the area so what works in 1 area may not work in another. Also, my perspective has always been as a contractor and not a homeowner.
If you are doing the work yourself, then you would be more concerned with material costs rather than labor costs. One more thing, you should try to cover up any areas exposed to the sun because the fabric will deteriorate from the sunlight.

Jeff

 

[mahlers]

I had a similar situation, with a 50+ year old 4" layer of crushed granite that got covered with leaves, grass, etc., and became a mess to drive on. The big problem is that all the stuff that accumulated over the years is mostly organic topsoil - and topsoil doesn't compact well at all. When it's wet and cars drive over it, the stuff just gets pushed all over the place and makes ruts. Adding gravel doesn't help much unless you're adding a LOT of gravel (big $$$). I tried graveling one area, and it was a waste. I went back in with the box blade and loader the next year and scraped all the topsoil off. Since they did a reasonable job of putting down gravel in the beginning, the boxblade just glided right over it and scraped the topsoil right off (don't use scarifiers for obvious reasons). From there I dressed it with a thin layer of gravel, and it came out great.

A big benefit was I then had a nice pile of topsoil that we mixed with mulch and compost and it's been great for turning the impossible sandy soil to something that a lawn will grow on.

 

[ray66v]

Geo Tex is effective even on top of the ground. The trick is to determine how much stone is necessary to reasonably support the traffic that the driveway will encounter.

Using #304 or #411 compacted, over time becomes very solid almost like concrete. It also will not hold water like plain stone, because there is much less space for the water to sit. This in turn helps the clay under the fabric stay firmer.

In my area through trial and error I have found 6" total of #304 or #411 to be ideal for "normal" traffic. This includes the propane truck once a month. In areas where I only drive my van on occasion, I have only 3-4" and it works fine. If I had more truck traffic I might go thicker. The only time there is any issue is when it is very wet, spring and fall. I simply do not bring in anything heavy during those periods. Theres no more mud no matter what.
The surface of #304 and #411 will be kind of sandy for a couple of years, so that is why I like to put a thin layer if #57 as a cap. It also looks more attractive.

If you lay it, (the fabric) down when the ground is good and dry, (mid summer), you can back the dump truck right over the fabric and "tailgate" the stone. (Very Fast)

A plate compactor works well. compact no more than 3" at a time and wet it down first. You can use a tractor or truck to compact if that is all you have.
Your going to pay $2 a linear foot on average, for the fabric but, man is it worth it. It will save the cost many times over in stone, that will continue to disappear year after year. There are several different types, the strongest is the one that looks woven like a burlap sack. However, I have used the other types and they all work fine.

If your drive is really muddy, consider installing some drain tile on one or both sides, if possible, that will firm it right up.

 

[Jeff244]

First of all I would like to say that this is a great forum. Also, this is the first forum that I have ever posted on so I am of new to this.

As to the original post, I agree with those that have said to scrape the dirt off when conditions permit and then add some good crushed stone or crushed asphalt.

Regarding the fabric, I guess all of my opinions have come from the viewpoint of laying asphalt over the base and having to guarantee the work. I believe what is being discussed here is for stone only, not paving. In that case it would be cost effective to use less stone by laying the fabric down. Although I still believe that subgrade preparation and drainage are as important as whatever materials go on top. On a commercial jobsite, if we ever drove a truck over the fabric without stone on it first, we would be kicked off the job by the inspector or engineer. But as stated, under the right conditions, you can drive a truck over it carefully and tailgate the stone.

Jeff

 

[dmccarty]

Jeff,

Welcome to TBN!

The "mistake" I made with putting in my driveway was in one area, maybe 200 feet long that went through heavy woods. The fabric is a PITFanny to lay down with rocks and sticks on the ground. So I tried to clear out the rocks and sticks. But since I was in the woods the deeper I went the more sticks, roots and rocks I found. All I ended up doing was building a nice ditch in which my driveway was going to sit. Now I only went down and inch or two before I figured out I was wasting my time and making things worse but with only a couple inches of gravel there ain't much keeping the water off the road.

I have ditched up hill of the driveway which has diverted quite a bit of water but in the previously mentioned section I still get overwash. Not a thing I can do since its in woods EXCEPT to add more gravel which would keep the water from getting on the road. I have used a hoe to place little bumps in the gravel to divert the water.

I prefer to NOT have the dump truck drive on the fabric but it has been done without any problems. At least as long as the ground is dry. The only problem I have with fabric is that you have to be real careful with the FEL or blade when spreading the gravel. You hit that fabric and you will pull it up out of the gravel Not fun trying to rebury the fabric. But I have never made a big mess out of it even when I did hit it. Just enough to be a pain.

Also if you do grade after it is down then you have to be real careful about not hitting the fabric. But I have only had to regrade the one problem area that is kinda steep. If I had NOT put in fabric that one area would be a trenched up mess from the water runoff.

I used a mesh version of fabric that was 12 or 12.5 feet wide. It was on a roll 320 or 360 feet long. Real easy to unroll. And I was doing it my self so I had to man handle the roll around to line things up. And I have bad back. I would put down rocks and such to hold the fabric in place in case the wind came up. But other than that its not too bad to do.

Seems like when I put in the first section of driveway the stuff was $300 per roll but that was in 2002-2003. Last year I put in the second section of driveway and seems like the price was 360ish a roll. I always figured $1 a linear foot. Or $1 for 12 square feet.

With the clay we have its either as hard as concrete or if wet, a goo. That fabric really helps this time of year when it is wet. The ABC gravel, road base, here in NC, is like concrete after it is put down. My rear tires on the truck might move the gravel if I'm not careful but the cars don't bother it at all. The truck rips up trenchs in the 67 gravel parking area that does not have fines.

Just ran some quick numbers. I think the last truck I ran cost me $65 an hour and could bring in 15 tons or about 5 yards of ABC. The ABC was something like $12 a ton so about $90 per load. Total of $155 per 5 yards.

5 yards covers 21 feet by 12 feet in a six inch layer at $7.38 per linear foot or 12 sq. feet.

5 yards in a four inch layer is 31 feet by 12 feet at $5 per linear foot or 12 sq feet.

I saved $1 per linear foot by putting down $1 worth of fabric. Actually I saved more since I know darn well that I have hundreds of feet of driveway that does not have 4 inches of gravel. Its a lot less. So I saved something like $500 for the first section of driveway and another $200ish for the second phase. I never looked at the money side of fabric vs gravel though.

But I did not put in the fabric to save money on gravel. I put it in so I would not have more work to do on the driveway. I have to maintain 1800 feet of gravel road as it is and I don't need to add another 700 feet to the equation.

It might not make money sense if labor costs are high but then I don't think I really spent that much time putting down the fabric.

I put in all of this detail to give others a price point of comparison. Might help someone.

Later,
Dan

 

[ray66v]

When I can't drive the truck on the gravel, I spread dump it with my fel. This is the safest way l have found to build up the first layer.
As far as putting the fabric down, when I did the back half of my drive, (160') with a 180 degree turn, my 70 year old mother and I unrolled it. tossed a few asphalt shingles, (textured side up), on it to keep the wind from moving it. and I hired a guy with a single axle dump to tailgate it. Start to finish after excavation, about 1.5 hrs. Believe it or not, Mom helped do the digging too!

 

[oscar80]

Sorry to intrude on this topic but I have a question. My driveway which is used by 12 houses has some spots were rocks are starting to come up thru the road bed. the rocks are only up a little bit maybe the 2-3 inches high and 6 around but the rest of the rock underground is huge. I know I probably cant move the rocks but is there a way I can cover them with other gravel to even it out some?

Dave

 

[ray66v]

You can always add more gravel. If I understand your situation, I would use a sand gravel mix like #304 or #411. This will be fine enough to fill in the voids and pack nicely.
Keep in mind If you have frost there, the big rocks are going to continue to heave up.

 

[oscar80]

We only have surface frost nothing that penetrates the ground much. The rocks are spaced about 6 -`2 inches apart randomly. The rocks here seems to "grow" they come up over time.

Dave

 

[ray66v]

Frost and erosion are the only 2 things I can think of, that would cause rocks to "grow." a small backhoe would be handy to yank some out once in a while. using a grader box can be tricky with buried rocks, (I would go slow). But, it would be the best way to finish the drive, after "tailgating" down the stone. Unless all your neighbors bring their rakes, and you have a "Raking Party." Spread it out, wet it down, and compact it, (drive over it a million times).

 

[JoeL4330]

Pretty clear what the gold standard solution is, strip the topsoil down to the old gravel base, ditch arq, lay geotextile fabric and then considerable gravel. Result should, ideally, stand proud of surrounding dirt, w. edging arq so as not to repeat the current situation. Here are some interesting reading links; then, take whatever shortcuts make sense to you.

http://www.cyber-north.com/geotextiles.html
www.maine.gov/dep/blwq/docwatershed/camproad.pdf
www.agf.gov.bc.ca/resmgmt/publist/600Series/644000-2.pdf
http://www.umext.maine.edu/waterquality/lakes/LakeASyst/camproads.htm
http://www.epa.gov/nps/gravelroads/

 

[cgraham]

I have Oscar88's problem: a 1/3 mi. of deteriorating road bulldozed through alluvium in the foothills of the desert SW. Parts are rather steep. The alluvium is a mixture of rock from 1" to 12" with a matrix of sand and powdery caliche. There are a few rock shelves.

The road is eroded by rare torrential rains, wind when it is dry (most of the time) and spinning wheels, especially delivery trucks.

Over the years the road has been groomed at intervals with a maintainer (grader), which keeps cutting spoil out of the high side of the road, so making it wider and wider. After grading I would usually add 1 inch crushed rock, and pray for rain. The best time to do this is a few days before July 4th, when the Mescalero Indians do their rain dances.

The road has got so bad now, and I don't want it to get any wider, so a new strategy is in play. I am pulling spoil off the lower bank of the road with my TBL, and spreading it best I can with the FEL, filling in the wheel ruts that have developed, and building up the surface to cover the exposedrocks: this is not easy because of the larger rocks. I have to keep getting off and tossing off the larger rocks. (Lacking a source for the spoil, it would have to be trucked in.)

I'm re-shaping the road so that it drains towards the downhill side of the slope it is cut in. I have put extra material over the exposed rock shelves. (I am trying an experiment - I put come mortar mix on the rock and covered it with clean gravel, hoping it will hold the fill better.

I am puttin in a couple of broad, diagonal berms on the steeper part to supplement the side slope and help the rain divert off the road (broad berms so the small cars like my Prius don't get high-centered).

The parts I have finished are quite uneven and bumpy, because of the rocks in the mix. I'm not about to take off the backhoe to put on a blade: besides, the TBL wheelbase is too short for blade work on an uneven surface. I have wet down the surface with a hose to the extent my well and availability of borrowed hose will permit to help bind the materials.

I will complete the surface by bringing in base course and spreading it to about 3": it will cover the bumps and create a maintainable surface (this is the expensive part). If the base course is fairly dry, the driver can spread it evenly from the tailgate. Base course here is what precedes asphalt for road building, and is composed of 3/4-minus crushed rock mixed with sandy clay.

If we ever get rain (it hasn't rained for 3 months during what passes for winter here!), I'll pack the base course best I can with a truck, and if necessary add a layer of 3/4- crushed rock, or grinder fines. I hope that occasional blading and addition of a little topping will keep the road up in the future. (I have a neighbor who has an excellent blade on his ancient tractor who will help me out occasionally).

I'm close to finishing the first half of the job, having worked on it intermittently for several weeks and will be bringing the base course in soon, to prevent the material I have disturbed from blowing away.

I don't think that a layer of gravel is sufficient to hold up for more than a year when the surface is destroyed and the big rocks starp appearing and popping out. You need to re-create a sufficient depth of material that the rocks are well-covered and so that you have a maintainable (bladeable) surface. In my case it is a major project. A contractor could do it in a few days with heavy equipment, but at what cost?

I hope this gives you some ideas, Oscar.

Charlie

 

[schmism]

an update.

the serious mud seemed to be a unique situation that only occurs when its thawing. The underling ground is still frozen and the upper few inches thaws, but with no were for the water to go, the freeze/thaw really breaks up the dirt into a squishy unbelievably soft muddy mess.

I managed to spred most of the large rock i had in the back durring the soft period. I would get out early in the morning when things were still froze. within a day or so of putting it down most (the stuff in the squishiest areas) sank in flush and did seem to add significant firmness when driving on it. (we no longer got stuck)

about a week pasted, thaw finished, and things "dried up" enough that we were able to work in the garden and i could drive the tractor through the yard without sinking to the hubs.

Then the rain came. I thought oh god no, not more slushy mud. but like i remember last year (this time of year) it wasnt bad. ya the bare areas got muddy but you didnt sink in to them 3" with the cars. IE the water ran off the top.



To finish off my story i had 15 ton of grade 8 (1" minus) delivered this morning. $230 with delivery (i dont know what was gravel price and what was delivery price) but it was about what i expected for a "full" load)

Ill post some pics of what im starting with and the finished product. (sorry thing is i expect to put a 20x30' concreet pad down right in the middle of the worst of it within a few months.... oh well)