I HATE ROAD SALT

[JDgreen227]

Yesterday it hit 52 degrees in mid-Michigan, I got out a hose and power washer and cleaned our winter vehicle, a 2004 Saturn, when the cleaning was done, I noticed the nearly new chrome rear license frame was badly pitted by the corrosive road salt they dump on the roads here.

Road commissions say they cannot use as much salt as they would like because the cost has steadily increased, as far as I am concerned they can stop using salt and spread sand instead. Sand is cheap, gives better traction than salt, doesn't ruin things like salt and doesn't pollute groundwater to the degree salt does. Those who argue salt is needed for melting ice, I say bull roar. Salt stops working when it gets cold enough no matter how much they dump on the roads. Maybe if they stopped spreading the stuff on the roads people would slow down and pay attention to their driving instead of yakking on their phones and chatting with passengers, etc.

To those in other states that use salt on the roads, is it as much an irritation there as here?

 

[captaincrab55]

Salt stops working when it gets cold enough no matter how much they dump on the roads.

JD, At what temperature does salt stop working???

 

[Craig Clayton]

In Ontario the issue is exactly the same. It is a love hate relationship with salt. People will drive as fast as they can provided they are able to stay on the road. Just wait until spring and the fear of black ice is gone, they have a lot of gas pedal travel to use up.
Craig Clayton

 

[Craig Clayton]

This is in metric
Road Salts - The Principles of Salt Use
This is simpler F
What temperature does road salt stop working? - Yahoo! Answers
Better in F
HowStuffWorks "Why do they use salt to melt ice on the road in the winter?"
Craig Clayton

 

[JDgreen227]

JD, At what temperature does salt stop working???

It varies on who you ask, my own opinion is that as the temperature drops below 32 degrees (freezing) it becomes less effective and at 4 below zero it stops working, and from what I understand the wind chill factor also influences the performance of salt.

 

[JDgreen227]

This is in metric
Road Salts - The Principles of Salt Use
This is simpler F
What temperature does road salt stop working? - Yahoo! Answers
Better in F
HowStuffWorks "Why do they use salt to melt ice on the road in the winter?"
Craig Clayton

I just looked at the Yahoo.com link, loved that quote where someone says they have a lot of older cars that still look like new because of the salt free roads in Canada. For a long time I was sure the road commissions here in Michigan were in cahoots with the automakers who wanted us to trade in our rusty cars on new ones.

 

[LD1]

I happen to actually live in an area that gets both. They salt the state routes and interstates, local and county roads get the sand.

And I have to say that I much perfer the salt. And just deal with the consequences. Sand is fine in a little bit of packed snow, but on ice it does very little to help traction IMO. It just rolls around. And then all the loose sand at the intersections come spring is a hazard all its own.

And bottom line is, without salt, black ice is a danger to EVERYONE I dont care how careful you are. Even a ever so slight curve at 20mph can be very bad on black ice.

Are you going to make a 40 mile commute to work everyday @ 10MPH???

 

[Egon]

loved that quote where someone says they have a lot of older cars that still look like new because of the salt free roads in Canada.

OK!:laughing:

 

[JDgreen227]

OK!:laughing:

Egon, is that actually true or not....? By "older" I define a car made before 1985. I do have an '85 Crown Vic that I drove till '94 then stored in my barn, it was Ziebarted when new and kept very clean, but the body still has a fair amount of rust. Do you see very many in Canada that are still driven and unrusted?

 

[JDgreen227]

I happen to actually live in an area that gets both. They salt the state routes and interstates, local and county roads get the sand.

And I have to say that I much perfer the salt. And just deal with the consequences. Sand is fine in a little bit of packed snow, but on ice it does very little to help traction IMO. It just rolls around. And then all the loose sand at the intersections come spring is a hazard all its own.

And bottom line is, without salt, black ice is a danger to EVERYONE I dont care how careful you are. Even a ever so slight curve at 20mph can be very bad on black ice.

Are you going to make a 40 mile commute to work everyday @ 10MPH???

I have been retired since end of '02, no commute needed. And I drove commercial straight trucks all over Michigan for a living for 31 years, all over the Upper Pensinsula in mid-winter too. Still think salt is more damaging than it is worth.

 

[Duffster]

The point at which salt becomes ineffective depends on the type of salt used and wind chill has no effect on it. Actually air temp has little to do with it as surface temp is what it is dependent on.

You can get away with out salting farther north but not around here. We get just enough thawing that everything turns to a big sheet of glare ice and become very dangerous.

Sand is actually not nearly as environmentally friendly as some would think as it is a source of phosphorous.

 

[captaincrab55]

As I recall, the Fahrenheit temperature scale was devised as 0*F being the coldest point that you could achieve with a water and salt brine solution back in the 1700s. Above is mentioned -4*F and Craig's Phase Diagram shows -21*C which is equal to about -6*F. I won't split hairs on this issue.

Sounds like Good information....:thumbsup: Some years back I had to deal with Snow Removel @ a good size facility with 6600 parking spaces and roadways... Back then I had charts from the Salt Institude and it does take a lot of salt as the Temperature goes down.. If I recall right, cost wise it was more important to prevent ice from forming on a road...

 

[SPIKER]

I hate what salt does to my cars as well as the bridges ect for sure but it is needed as the roads can get icy and the salt is what helps break it up so it can be removed. It also is better than the new de-icing chemicals which are killing trees along the roads they have been using it on. There are a bunch of law suits from what I have seen read and or heard regarding its use. It sure makes it hard on the brake & fuel lines worse than anything. I think if a car is sold into the North East & North central of USA then the car companies should be required to install S.S. brake & fuel lines for simple safety sake. It seems if you have a 10 year old car on Ohio (norther ohio) then you need full brake lines and if you get 15 yrs out of the fuel lines then you are lucky. most of the cars also if not well washed and used in winter are only good for about 20 years tops and on average 12~15 prior to them really going down hill.

My 93 ford truck is on its 2nd set of brake lines ! I've had to replace major suspension parts as well due to rust so you have to keep an eye on the car/trucks parts from underneath. Look at the recent Ford Recal for the mini-vans 3~5 years in the rust belt and the rear axles are rusting in half!


Mark

 

[George2615]

I don't like the salt because it does a lot of damage to vehicle metal. I'd rather see them use sand. Here in NY I see they have started using a liquid brine spraying truck on state roads. I don't know if that will be any better. Salt is salt whether liquid or solid.
I have heard that the state of PA uses only sand and no salt. Salt does have its merits of melting snow and ice.
You can easily see the difference in a vehicle driven for 20 winters in NY compared to one driven 20 winters say in FL.
We have a huge parking lot at work. It is commercially plowed each snowfall, then the maintenance guys go out and salt the lot to prevent freezing (which hopefully prevents slips and falls and lawsuits). They won't use sand because it clogs the storm drains in the lot.

 

[atgreene]

I got a chuckle about using sand as it's better than salt.

Sand has salt in it, otherwise the sand would freeze solid and would not be usable. We typically mix salt with sand at any where from 4-1 to 8-1. Thus, for every 4 yards of sand put down, we use 1 yard of salt.

Salt, used straight in this area is layed down at 300-500 lbs. per lane mile.

Sand is spread by the yard, I typically spread sand at about 1.5 yards per mile depending upon road condition. Some nights, it was 2 yards per mile. So, at 1.5 yards per mile, I'm using more salt using salt sand than if I had just laid down straight salt.

When we spread salt, we spread it in a narrow strip in the center of the road. When we use sand, we have to spin it out for coverage, thus using more.

Furthermore, traffic will blow sand off the road/ice within hours, then we return to reapply. Salt once laid down turns to a brine which creeps under the ice breaking it up.

As for temps, a lot of conditions apply, wind, sun, angle of sun (Dec. or March?), air temps but especially road temps all fall into play. We always tried to have the salt down by 5 am for morning traffic to work it in. Lay salt on a Sunday morning at 18 degrees, it doesn't work well. Lay it down with the same temps on a monday with traffic going to work, big difference, works much better.

When I started with public works and snow removal I was a huge sand fan, after seeing how things work from behind the scenes, I've changed my thinking. Salt, when used correctly, is the way to go.

Need more? Sand ends up in the ditches, brooks and lakes causing silt, choking off plantlife and adding phosphorous. It also causes us to re-ditch roads at a much faster pace than normal, often twice as often as roads with no sand.

Salt on the other hand disipates. I will try to find the study from University of New York(?) that studied salt on roads and it's effect on the environment. They found that by late April the salinity of the run-off had returned to normal levels on salt only roads, while sand treated areas carried silt yearround into the bodies of water.

Also, as a 7 generation maple syrup producer, we have lost hundreds of trees to roadside salt. After looking at all the info available, I'll take the properly applied salt over the salt/sand mix whenever possible.

Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.

 

[jonyyuma]

Tenn. is using liquid brine, and putting it down ahead of the storm. What I hate about sand is the pea gravel that is mixed with it and trys to crack windshield and paint.Plus the peagravel builds up at shoulders and corners and is like ball bearings if you get into it? Jy.

 

[LD1]

I got a chuckle about using sand as it's better than salt.

Sand has salt in it, otherwise the sand would freeze solid and would not be usable. We typically mix salt with sand at any where from 4-1 to 8-1. Thus, for every 4 yards of sand put down, we use 1 yard of salt.

Salt, used straight in this area is layed down at 300-500 lbs. per lane mile.

Sand is spread by the yard, I typically spread sand at about 1.5 yards per mile depending upon road condition. Some nights, it was 2 yards per mile. So, at 1.5 yards per mile, I'm using more salt using salt sand than if I had just laid down straight salt.

When we spread salt, we spread it in a narrow strip in the center of the road. When we use sand, we have to spin it out for coverage, thus using more.

Furthermore, traffic will blow sand off the road/ice within hours, then we return to reapply. Salt once laid down turns to a brine which creeps under the ice breaking it up.

As for temps, a lot of conditions apply, wind, sun, angle of sun (Dec. or March?), air temps but especially road temps all fall into play. We always tried to have the salt down by 5 am for morning traffic to work it in. Lay salt on a Sunday morning at 18 degrees, it doesn't work well. Lay it down with the same temps on a monday with traffic going to work, big difference, works much better.

When I started with public works and snow removal I was a huge sand fan, after seeing how things work from behind the scenes, I've changed my thinking. Salt, when used correctly, is the way to go.

Need more? Sand ends up in the ditches, brooks and lakes causing silt, choking off plantlife and adding phosphorous. It also causes us to re-ditch roads at a much faster pace than normal, often twice as often as roads with no sand.

Salt on the other hand disipates. I will try to find the study from University of New York(?) that studied salt on roads and it's effect on the environment. They found that by late April the salinity of the run-off had returned to normal levels on salt only roads, while sand treated areas carried silt yearround into the bodies of water.

Also, as a 7 generation maple syrup producer, we have lost hundreds of trees to roadside salt. After looking at all the info available, I'll take the properly applied salt over the salt/sand mix whenever possible.

Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.

Very informative. Thanks for taking the time to post

 

[Craig Clayton]

To K7LN
I did Wiki and found that we have to stick the therometer under someones armpit.
Fahrenheit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I did Wiki Celsius and in the orginal form 0 Degees = boilng and water froze at 100 C
Celsius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Craig Clayton

 

[wolc123]

Hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost in the automotive idustry were it not for road salt. Auto companies really depend on sales up in the northern states where vehicles typically start haveing rust issues at less than five years. There is also very lucritive business in hauling used northern cars down south where folks dont know what they are buying, and big markets for "southern cars" up north on the return trips. Similarly, lots of road and bridge workers can thank road salt for their jobs. So, in addition to quickly making roads safe to drive on at high speed, salt creates lots of jobs and money-making opportunities. My guess is, there are more folks benefiting from road salt than not, which explains its continued usage.

 

[JeremyL]

Here there is widespread panic when snow is forecast, and the municipalities start spreading salt before a flake is even spotted. It usually ends up with equal amounts of salt and snow - 1" of snow = 1" of salt. After the snow melts we slide around on the piles of left over salt.

I can only figure that someone is making a lot of $ selling salt to the county, as well as overtime pay for the truck drivers.

Oh, how I wish for some moderation when it comes to spreading the salt that damages our cars, plants and water quality.