Hydrogen infrastructure

[3930dave]

I was going to post the file itself, but IIRC, the file size limit here is no more than 10M.....

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.n...n/NRCan_Hydrogen-Strategy-Canada-na-en-v3.pdf

Recent Canadian paper..... 141 pages, so I'm only part way in, but have already learned that Canada is presently one of the top 10 global producers of Hydrogen.

Some light reading..... esp. useful if you have trouble sleeping at night

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

JCB deal.

JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

Rgds, D.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Many countries around the world use natgas to fuel vehicles, including small ones.

As the cleanest burning HC, it made sense. Not that many years ago (5 give/take) a good friend of mine used an ex-BC Highways F150 as his service truck. 4x4 ext cab, always fully loaded with cable, fittings and tools. IIRC, he was around $10CAD/100km running that on natgas. A real bargain, esp. considering gasoline pricing in BC. That truck may have actually been an XL7700 '150.

Rgds, D.

Back 20 years ago when I worked for the state, most of our state vehicles had been converted to CNG. They ran OK on the highway, but were so doggy in traffic I didn't like to drive one or ride in one, because they just didn't feel safe to me.

 

[3930dave]

Back 20 years ago when I worked for the state, most of our state vehicles had been converted to CNG. They ran OK on the highway, but were so doggy in traffic I didn't like to drive one or ride in one, because they just didn't feel safe to me.

Not sure what you'd have been driving back then.... a buddy out West has had a few BC Highways F150 on natgas - hands-down, his favourite work vehicle, and he always had that truck loaded with tools and cable. As BC gasoline pricing is closer to Europe than USA $, he loved the operating cost of NG at the time.

By spec, with NG you lose a bit of power vs. gas/diesel, the rest comes down to who designed/installed the NG system. My friend had no complaints with those NG F150s, and he's somewhat heavy-footed, at least compared to me.

Early gasoline engines were pretty lame, even by 1950 standards. Early or cheap/badly implemented NG or propane systems don't perform well by today's standards either....

Ford often did a lot of alt-fuel work with Roush; IMO, one of the best in the biz.....

Rgds, D.

 

[Torvy]

I hope you're not confusing CNG with Hydrogen Fuel Cells. HFC is the best way forward if we want to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels. Personally, I am in favor of a market driven multi-pronged approach. No reason to shutter all use of ICE vehicles, reducing usage by making alternatives available will solve the real concerns of localized pollution and a finite resource.

 

[KennyG]

HFCs would be great if you had an economical, non-polluting was to produce hydrogen. I can't see that on the horizon. It would have to be more efficient than electrical generation.

 

[3930dave]

Nope, no confusion on my part.....

Technically, I like hydrogen the best - whether in a fuel-cell application or directly combusted (Internal Combustion).

I'm ok with related thread-wander..... people naturally will think of whatever alt-fuel they may have experience with, when another new one comes up....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Upstate NY,

Biggest Plug Power green hydrogen plant in North America headed to NY state

Rgds, D.

 

[KennyG]

So we're going to use hydro power to produce electricity to produce hydrogen which we will transport to fill fuel cells to produce electricity. Maybe that makes sense but also consider that we currently use all available hydro power. All the electricity used by this plant will have to be replaced.

 

[DieselBound]

So we're going to use hydro power to produce electricity to produce hydrogen which we will transport to fill fuel cells to produce electricity. Maybe that makes sense but also consider that we currently use all available hydro power. All the electricity used by this plant will have to be replaced.

And also consider that dams have a limited lifespan (I seem to recall 150 years or so as being the average): many of the larger dams in NA are heading into the later years of their lifecycle.

And on top is the ever-lurking GROWTH issue. Not only is the issue about replacing existing but also providing for our exponential demands from growth.

 

[3930dave]

Canada has plenty of hydro, ergo the top-10 # up top of page.

Points taken though....... I noted the phrase a long time ago... No Fanatic, like a Converted Fanatic...... (meaning anti-oil bandaids, causing collateral damage/issues).

Personally, I'd like to see H2 cracked from water using PV power, but commercial-scale at this stage will require 24x7 H2 generation I'd expect. Biomass and wind are other options.

Shutdown oil, and coal, and nuke, and hydro generation.... AND flip everyone to EVs..... you might be able to drive OR heat and cool your house/hangout on TBN, but not both....

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

I knew someone who was setting his home up to be PV-only supplied- "off-grid." He had to give up his Nissan Leaf. He'd had a Prius before his Leaf (and likely, didn't follow up on his story, returned to a Prius).

I partially laugh at such folks, not because I like to see such "failures," but because it demonstrates what I know to be true of the greater hive-mind out there- insufficiently aware of the totality of the problem yet go at the "problem" (they believe it to be) with full vigor (which is supported/subsidized by marketing-hype).

 

[3930dave]

Big Back To The Land movement, in the 60's.

Once the reality of the hardship, work, sacrifices and discomfort set in, few Stayed the Course....

Pain, can be instructive. Many/most modern first-world citizens have no clue of the range of that scale, when it comes to day/day survival....

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

Big Back To The Land movement, in the 60's.

Once the reality of the hardship, work, sacrifices and discomfort set in, few Stayed the Course....

Pain, can be instructive. Many/most modern first-world citizens have no clue of the range of that scale, when it comes to day/day survival....

Rgds, D.

Yes. But in this guy's case he was more urban! He'd had the house for many years. Was just pushing to be "greener." He did some work with some solar folks (though his full time profession was as an emergency room nurse, if memory serves me right).

One needs to do one's work if one has any hopes of even coming close to having things work out. When I was aiming for off-grid (years ago when I was more capable) I was intending on using micro-hydro. Have to know what your requirements are. Obviously, there's more than just power to consider; I'd made a spreadsheet to show drawn-down and refill rates for cisterns for my potable water needs.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Big Back To The Land movement, in the 60's.

Once the reality of the hardship, work, sacrifices and discomfort set in, few Stayed the Course....

Pain, can be instructive. Many/most modern first-world citizens have no clue of the range of that scale, when it comes to day/day survival....

Rgds, D.

I know several back to the land hippies from the '60s and early '70s. This area was a destination for them. The ones who stuck it out did well, some of them with lifestyles you would be hard put to find anywhere in the world. I have friends with a deck built on the side of a waterfall; part of a beautiful hand-built home, and no neighbors within a mile. They may have been broke a lot in the early years, but that's a long way from hardship, sacrifices, and discomfort.

 

[3930dave]

I know several back to the land hippies from the '60s and early '70s. This area was a destination for them. The ones who stuck it out did well, some of them with lifestyles you would be hard put to find anywhere in the world. I have friends with a deck built on the side of a waterfall; part of a beautiful hand-built home, and no neighbors within a mile. They may have been broke a lot in the early years, but that's a long way from hardship, sacrifices, and discomfort.

Looks good, on those (self) select(ed) few who stuck it out. They ended up with unique homesteads and lifestyles.

Many people today (even pre-Covid) won't get out of their vehicle to pick up a coffee, and think it's a tough day when something takes more than 5 seconds to load on their phone..... I can't see as many people today homesteading in the middle of nowhere.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Yes. But in this guy's case he was more urban! He'd had the house for many years. Was just pushing to be "greener." He did some work with some solar folks (though his full time profession was as an emergency room nurse, if memory serves me right).

One needs to do one's work if one has any hopes of even coming close to having things work out. When I was aiming for off-grid (years ago when I was more capable) I was intending on using micro-hydro. Have to know what your requirements are. Obviously, there's more than just power to consider; I'd made a spreadsheet to show drawn-down and refill rates for cisterns for my potable water needs.

Although it's pretty standard engineering ^, it's waaayyyyy more work than typical consumers have any interest in doing....

I always liked Homepower's approach to documenting projects.... gave you a detailed look at all costs for long-term projects. Devil in Details, for sure....

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

Dave, the guy was actually working with/for a company (not sure how much; kind of moonlighting?). To not understand some basic loads speaks to people's naiveté- heads filled up with marketing hype.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Yes. But in this guy's case he was more urban! He'd had the house for many years. Was just pushing to be "greener." He did some work with some solar folks (though his full time profession was as an emergency room nurse, if memory serves me right).

One needs to do one's work if one has any hopes of even coming close to having things work out. When I was aiming for off-grid (years ago when I was more capable) I was intending on using micro-hydro. Have to know what your requirements are. Obviously, there's more than just power to consider; I'd made a spreadsheet to show drawn-down and refill rates for cisterns for my potable water needs.

I have never aimed to be off-grid, but have worked hard to be off-checkbook. Over the years I have spent a lot of money on invisible energy upgrades. We upgraded our heat pump a couple years ago to a modern, 16 SEER unit, and summer efficency rating is the important part. This week I was doing about 30 degrees of heating with two little 4" oak splits every couple hours. During the day, it is rare to need heat, because a lot of south glass offers substantial solar gain, shining on insulated tile floors that hold heat well. Most days the passive solar lasts for an hour after sunset.

I feel pretty green. My electric bill is 2/3 of the electric bill from 25 years ago, and that is with 25 years of rate increases. Efficiency counts for a lot.

 

[DieselBound]

Larry, yes, REDUCE is the key word. Back in the 70s, in the US that is, it was: REDUCE, Re-use and Recycle. Somewhere along the line REDUCE was dropped (when we became Consumer Nation [post 9/11 we were told to "go out shopping!" - pathetic to the max]).

I continue to use wood from my property for heating. I spent a lot of energy assisting the growth of new tree saplings: blackberries snuff the life out of just about everything- I do hand to hand battle in order to set the saplings free so that they can sync the carbon that I use (almost always from downed trees- if left these release that carbon back into the atmosphere, albeit slowly; I've actually buried a lot of stumps, which sequesters that carbon).

In the end, unfortunately, efficiency is no solution: see Jevons Paradox.