How to Recover a Lost Submersible Well Pump

[Valveman]

Physics class tells me different. I would not toss the Dole, csv type valve out of the equation but I wanted the soft start feature plus if lightning sends my freq drive blasting out of the well house in flames there is still a chance the pump could survive. My guidance counselor sold me nothing but a lot of amicable phone time I do not believe the principles of operation of a dole/csv valve would not increase run time and head on my pump. As far as freq drives I drink beer with a neighbor that makes 6 figures telling people how to make them work. Those two and my many years as an AT&T power man gives a touch of insight.

Gosh, I hate to be confrontational. I really am trying to help. Most likely the problem started with the physics teacher. Because if your physics class taught you differently, they taught you incorrectly. However, I fully understand the misunderstanding, as I thought the same way for several years. The fact that restricting a pump with a valve decreases the amp draw of the pump/motor is counter intuitive and hard for even highly educated people to understand. Almost everyone thinks restricting a pump with a valve might be hard or more work for the pump/motor, but just the opposite is true. I was raised around and studied pumps all my life, and I still did not understand this for many years.

Soft start would be important if the pump cycled on and off 100-300 times a day as with a regular pressure tank system. But the Subdrive or any constant pressure system is supposed to keep the pump from cycling while water is being used. This should decrease the number of cycles from hundreds per day to just a hand full. That is kind of the point of the VFD. When a pump only starts 10 times a day, soft starting is not as important. However, the way a Subdrive works with the little switch instead of a transducer, is to actually cycle from half speed to full speed about 45 times a minute. So, it is basically starting every couple of seconds, which makes soft starting very important. Using the transducer or any other brand of VFD will keep the pump running for as long as the water is being used.

It is also hard to soft start a submersible motor. They have a Kingsbury type thrust bearing which requires at least 50% of full speed to have the proper lubrication from a hydroplane effect. The motor must get to 50% speed in 1 second to prevent bearing damage. Then it could be ramped up to full speed as slowly as you want it. However, you have already opened a tap, the pressure tank is empty, which is why the pump came on. If it doesn't get up to speed quickly the water will stop coming out of the faucet. So, it can't soft start like you would think.

A pump can also be started softly without a VFD. Starting a pump against max pump pressure such as against a closed or almost closed valve will greatly decrease the duration, which is as big a part of a soft start as amplitude. This is where your counselor and physics class failed you. Using a Dole, CSV, or any type of valve to increase the run time and the head on the pump is a good thing, not a bad one. It is good to start a pump against a closed or almost closed valve. Restricting with a valve lets the motor start and run at reduced amps, which is also a good thing.
Restricting with a valve also increases run time. Again, a good thing. In the past pressure tanks were sized to give 1 minute run time minimum, 2 minutes is better, and so on. But with a CSV or a VFD, run time is for as long as you are using water. That is also a good thing as pumps are made to run continuously 24/7/365. It is the cycling on and off that kills them. I have a pump feeding a stock tank that hasn't shut off since 1999 when I put it in. That is what pumps are made to do.

Your neighbor who makes six figures working on drives, makes six figures working on drives! He would be appalled at how the little switch on the Subdrive works instead of a transducer, but he is not a trustworthy reference for how good VFD's are. I've drank beer with a few guys like that, and they walked away with their tales between their legs. Lol!

After being talked into it by a fast talking salesman and spending all that money on a VFD, nobody wants to hear that it is not the best way to do it. Even though VFD's are not the best way to get constant pressure, it is the same way I started. It is like jumping into the deep end and having to swim back to the shallows. Once you swim your way back to the shallow end you will have discovered you could have gotten the same strong constant pressure with a CSV instead of a VFD. Just today I helped three other people switch out their failed Subdrives for CSV's. The difference is the CSV is simple, mechanical, inexpensive, and long lasting. The VFD is not.

 

[Flogger]

Now who is the salesman? I'm quite happy and I find your methods quite irritating. I can not argue with a man that has nothing else to learn.

 

[Valveman]

I can not argue with a man that has nothing else to learn.

Ditto! I am glad you are happy! I am not trying to talk you out of a perfectly good Subdrive. I just hope you will remember what I said when the time comes to replace it, which maybe sooner than you would like. Have a nice day!

 

[turnkey4099]

A pump delivers water straight from a well or a storage tank to the taps. A pressure tanks only purpose is to store the excess water that the pump makes over what is being used. Then, as you said, the pump runs until the cut-off pressure is reached. At that point, water that "came from the well", is drawn from the pressure tank for a short time, to limit the on/off cycles of the pump.

When using a CSV or a VFD the output of the pump is changed to match the amount being used. Cut-off pressure is never reached while a tap is on. Water is going right past the pressure tank as if it wasn't even there. Water is coming from the source and a pressure tank isn't really needed at that point.

Water can also be supplied straight from the well without a CSV or VFD, but without a pressure tank the pump will just cycle on and off rapidly to supply what is needed.

The point is... A lot of people see a big 80 gallon pressure tank and think they have lots of water. In reality an 80 gallon pressure tank only holds 20 gallons of water. And that is when it has been filled with a pump from a real source of water, which is your well, cistern, or other supply. Having a huge pressure tank doesn't mean you have a good water supply.

Hardly a "short time" for a standard stysstem. It will deliver around 25 gallons before pumps starts again. That would be hours between cycles in my house unless I am irrigating.

 

[Carl_NH]

Hardly a "short time" for a standard system. It will deliver around 25 gallons before pumps starts again. That would be hours between cycles in my house unless I am irrigating.

Same here, we have 2 tanks in series with 28 gal drawdown, and pump cycles maybe 8 times a day for a little over 2 minutes each.

 

[Valveman]

It takes an 86 gallon size tank or two 44 gallon size tanks to deliver 25-28 gallons before the pump comes on. As the tank is expressing those 25-28 gallons the system pressure is decreasing from a strong 60 PSI all the way down to 40 PSI which isn't quite, but seems like half pressure. None of the appliances care about the pressure. But the shower and other things will start out strong and dwindle down to barely getting the soap out of your hair. This is what I hear people complaining about the most. Many come from the city, and they want strong, constant, city like pressure the way it use to be.

I always say, it is your water system, this is still America, and you can have as strong of pressure as you want. You just have to make it happen. While large pressure tank systems have been the mainstay of pump systems for a hundred years, the ONLY problem is when the pump cycles on and off to much. Every body knows cycling is a problem as there are lots of alternatives these days to limit the cycling. CSV's are just one of many.

Even if you don't mind the weak pressure in the shower and already have a large pressure tank, there are still reasons to add a Cycle Stop Valve. As was said, "unless I am irrigating" is always a good reason for a CSV. If you do ANY irrigation to speak of the CSV lets you also do it any way you want, without cycling the pump. With a 25 GPM pump, a 25 gallon draw down tank is the bare minimum for number of cycles unless EVERY sprinkler zone is exactly 25 GPM. Even then you are using all the water the pump makes to keep it from cycling, and if water in the house is used at the same time, pressure may drop so low even the appliances will care. With a CSV you can set the irrigation zones from 2 GPM to maybe 20 GPM, matching the needs of the yard instead of the pump. With the CSV the pump will not cycle, the pressure will stay strong and constant at 50 PSI, and people in the house will not even know the sprinkles are on. Not to mention large and small sprinkler zones will see the same constant pressure and won't be spraying high and low as when a pump is cycling on and off between 40 and 60.

Then there is the argument that "I don't have any irrigation, don't care about the shower pressure, and don't need a CSV". Can't really argue with that. Unless, like many stories I have been told, something unusual happens. A funny one is the kids where washing the bicycles and left the hose running. It was in the tall weeds over in the next lot and nobody even knew it. Might have been running for days or weeks. They don't even know the hose was on until they get the failed pump replaced and the pump man cannot get the pump to fill the tank and shut off. Looking around for a leak, someone finally finds the open hose. Lol! Of course the same thing happens to the pump if the toilet float leaks while you are on vacation, or you spring a leak anywhere that is not found quickly. If nothing else a CSV is better than insurance for the pump when something like this happens.

Using the CSV with a large pressure tank will take 8 average daily cycles down to maybe 4 instead, and give you the best of both worlds. You will still see shower pressure drop for the first several minutes until the big tank is empty and the CSV gets the system up to strong constant 55 PSI. But then if you are in the shower for a month, the pump will never cycle for that entire month as well. That is how it reduced 8 cycles a day to 4.

If you use a CSV with a small tank, the cycles per day may increase to about 25. But 25 cycle per day is still a minimal amount, especially for all the advantages of the smaller tank. With the small tank shower pressure from the CSV is strong and constant 50 PSI before you get the temperature adjusted, and stays that way for a month as well if needed. The smaller tank cost much less, takes up less space, and heat. The run time of the pump may increase from 16 minutes a day to 30-40 minutes a day, but it will be at reduced amperage, so not as big an increase as you would think. It might even increase the electric bill by a couple bucks a month. But it would take years to save enough to pay off the large pressure tank. Also, even or especially when a pump only runs 16 minutes a day, many of those maybe very short cycles on the pump. Believe it or not, the pump would rather run 30/40 minutes a day than cycle too fast a dozen times running 16 minutes total.

I have been around a long time and heard all the stories. I only suggest a CSV because it solves nearly every problem encountered. I could make a lot more money selling VFD's and would have a lot easier time talking people into it. Lol!

 

[lman]

Hardly a "short time" for a standard stysstem. It will deliver around 25 gallons before pumps starts again. That would be hours between cycles in my house unless I am irrigating.

How much livestock do you have?

 

[turnkey4099]

It takes an 86 gallon size tank or two 44 gallon size tanks to deliver 25-28 gallons before the pump comes on. As the tank is expressing those 25-28 gallons the system pressure is decreasing from a strong 60 PSI all the way down to 40 PSI which isn't quite, but seems like half pressure. None of the appliances care about the pressure. But the shower and other things will start out strong and dwindle down to barely getting the soap out of your hair. This is what I hear people complaining about the most. Many come from the city, and they want strong, constant, city like pressure the way it use to be.

I always say, it is your water system, this is still America, and you can have as strong of pressure as you want. You just have to make it happen. While large pressure tank systems have been the mainstay of pump systems for a hundred years, the ONLY problem is when the pump cycles on and off to much. Every body knows cycling is a problem as there are lots of alternatives these days to limit the cycling. CSV's are just one of many.

Even if you don't mind the weak pressure in the shower and already have a large pressure tank, there are still reasons to add a Cycle Stop Valve. As was said, "unless I am irrigating" is always a good reason for a CSV. If you do ANY irrigation to speak of the CSV lets you also do it any way you want, without cycling the pump. With a 25 GPM pump, a 25 gallon draw down tank is the bare minimum for number of cycles unless EVERY sprinkler zone is exactly 25 GPM. Even then you are using all the water the pump makes to keep it from cycling, and if water in the house is used at the same time, pressure may drop so low even the appliances will care. With a CSV you can set the irrigation zones from 2 GPM to maybe 20 GPM, matching the needs of the yard instead of the pump. With the CSV the pump will not cycle, the pressure will stay strong and constant at 50 PSI, and people in the house will not even know the sprinkles are on. Not to mention large and small sprinkler zones will see the same constant pressure and won't be spraying high and low as when a pump is cycling on and off between 40 and 60.

Then there is the argument that "I don't have any irrigation, don't care about the shower pressure, and don't need a CSV". Can't really argue with that. Unless, like many stories I have been told, something unusual happens. A funny one is the kids where washing the bicycles and left the hose running. It was in the tall weeds over in the next lot and nobody even knew it. Might have been running for days or weeks. They don't even know the hose was on until they get the failed pump replaced and the pump man cannot get the pump to fill the tank and shut off. Looking around for a leak, someone finally finds the open hose. Lol! Of course the same thing happens to the pump if the toilet float leaks while you are on vacation, or you spring a leak anywhere that is not found quickly. If nothing else a CSV is better than insurance for the pump when something like this happens.

Using the CSV with a large pressure tank will take 8 average daily cycles down to maybe 4 instead, and give you the best of both worlds. You will still see shower pressure drop for the first several minutes until the big tank is empty and the CSV gets the system up to strong constant 55 PSI. But then if you are in the shower for a month, the pump will never cycle for that entire month as well. That is how it reduced 8 cycles a day to 4.

If you use a CSV with a small tank, the cycles per day may increase to about 25. But 25 cycle per day is still a minimal amount, especially for all the advantages of the smaller tank. With the small tank shower pressure from the CSV is strong and constant 50 PSI before you get the temperature adjusted, and stays that way for a month as well if needed. The smaller tank cost much less, takes up less space, and heat. The run time of the pump may increase from 16 minutes a day to 30-40 minutes a day, but it will be at reduced amperage, so not as big an increase as you would think. It might even increase the electric bill by a couple bucks a month. But it would take years to save enough to pay off the large pressure tank. Also, even or especially when a pump only runs 16 minutes a day, many of those maybe very short cycles on the pump. Believe it or not, the pump would rather run 30/40 minutes a day than cycle too fast a dozen times running 16 minutes total.

I have been around a long time and heard all the stories. I only suggest a CSV because it solves nearly every problem encountered. I could make a lot more money selling VFD's and would have a lot easier time talking people into it. Lol!

40psi barely gets the soap oout of your hair??? Wow!!! I think you need a refresher course in the use and functioning of NON CSVs. You keep making very ignorant comments about how they function. My system is 30-50 and 30 will run a lawn sprinker quite well and give a "needle" shower.

 

[turnkey4099]

How much livestock do you have?

What does that have to do with it? FWIT worth none but grew up on a farm.

 

[Valveman]

40psi barely gets the soap oout of your hair??? Wow!!! I think you need a refresher course in the use and functioning of NON CSVs. You keep making very ignorant comments about how they function. My system is 30-50 and 30 will run a lawn sprinker quite well and give a "needle" shower.

I am glad you are happy with 30/50 pressure. Most people are not or I would not be in business. 40/60 is the most common setting these days, and people still complain about that. With any filters you lose pressure, and many houses are plumbed with pipe that is too small. And some of those small pex lines have insert fittings which further restricts the pressure. If you are at the bottom of the hill, don't have any filters, and have large pipes all the way to the shower, 30/50 might be fine. But I can assure you people moving to the country from the city would not be happy with 30/50 pressure.

When the house is on a hill, has multiple filters, or has long or too small pipe lines, much higher pressures are needed. I did several today that were 60/80 and one that was 120/140 as those houses are considerable higher in elevation than the well and pump.