Comparison Home Stand By Generators

[Garandman]

There are plenty of big diesel gensets, including all the milsurp units. If we heated with oil they would have been a consideration.

We went with the propane model because we already had propane tanks on the property, and it is a lot more stable than the currently available gas/ethanol mix.

 

[doxford jim]

I think another point that should be considered is safety of the fuel if there was a leak. Natural gas and propane could be very dangerous as could gasoline. Diesel on the other hand, is probably the safer fuel for storage. Not a major consideration, but where you have the generator and fuel storage could be important.
For the record, I do have diesel and live in a cold climate. My unit is a manual start and change over switch, so it could be hard starting of the battery was low on charge. For this reason I keep two batteries in the generator shed. The generator was already installed when I bought the house.
Thanks.

 

[doxford jim]

I think another point that should be considered is safety of the fuel if there was a leak. Natural gas and propane could be very dangerous as could gasoline. Diesel on the other hand, is probably the safer fuel for storage. Not a major consideration, but where you have the generator and fuel storage could be important.
For the record, I do have diesel and live in a cold climate. My unit is a manual start and change over switch, so it could be hard starting of the battery was low on charge. For this reason I keep two batteries in the generator shed. The generator was already installed when I bought the house.
Thanks.

 

[Toyboy]

I think another point that should be considered is safety of the fuel if there was a leak. Natural gas and propane could be very dangerous as could gasoline. Diesel on the other hand, is probably the safer fuel for storage. Not a major consideration, but where you have the generator and fuel storage could be important.
For the record, I do have diesel and live in a cold climate. My unit is a manual start and change over switch, so it could be hard starting of the battery was low on charge. For this reason I keep two batteries in the generator shed. The generator was already installed when I bought the house.
Thanks.

The same could be said for your water heater, furnace and gas stove. At least if there is a leak at the GenSet, being outside it will not accumulate, and will dissipate in the air.

 

[K man]

I do understand that diesel fueled generators will last longer and more fuel efficient than propane or natural gas. My problem with diesel fuel is the smell makes me nauseous and once it is on your cloth, ground it smells forever. Diesel generator are also loud so it should installed very far away from the home especially if you live close to neighbours.

 

[DarkBlack]

Just ran the whole house and well pump on my 5kw for 2 days straight. You guys needing 15-20kw units must have a house like a factory ( excluding farms ).

 

[patrick_g]

Just ran the whole house and well pump on my 5kw for 2 days straight. You guys needing 15-20kw units must have a house like a factory ( excluding farms ).

There are many many considerations when contemplating emergency power. Fuel alone has many facets including convenience, storage life, cost, and others, For the minimalist who wants a bit more than he can rely on from solar panels and storage batteries, a small gasoline powered portable genset might do all he wants to keep a refrigerator, freezer, TV, and some lights going and doesn't need to run 24-7. Wouldn't need a huge fuel supply so rotating fuel through vehicles so the stored fuel didn't go stale (with modern gasoline fuel preservatives like Stabil aren't as effective as they once were) and you have a qualified success.

Arguing the safety of diesel vs the danger of propane and natural gas is a waste of time. Until or unless for safety's sake you switch over to diesel for your hot water heater, cook stove, etc. you are not taking your own advice. Others have pointed out, and rightly so, that a properly installed LPG or Nat Gas fired genset is no more dangerous than a water heater, furnace, or whatever and actually less so since if not enclosed in an unventilated space (outrageously dumb) it is safer than most domestic appliances on natgas or LPG.

Regarding the supposed economy of a Diesel under partial load vs gasoline, natgas or LPG, Anybody here get the same mileage on their vehicle regardless of load when driving a steady speed? Is there an internal combustion engine in common use that uses the same fuel per hour under light load as full load? There are standby gensets (in all the fuel types) that idle when no electrical load is switched on and so use less fuel than running at standard RPM (for 60 cycle power.) The longest outage we have had since installing our genset was 4 days. I shut it down to check the oil a couple times a day (just to be sure) could have shut it down overnight some nights because it didn't really need to run the heat overnight as we have some propane gas logs for just in case (plus decorative effect.)

When weather is truly nasty and an ice storm or downed trees take out power for a day or so I like knowing the genset is running off a 1000 gal propane tank (800 gal usable) and I won't be out there is 40 kts of wind trying to pour liquid fuel in the general direction of the fuel filler.

Had I found a bargain in diesel gensets I may have installed one and a good sized tank to fuel it and let my cost savings in the purchase price dampen the fires of concern over short runs and acid contamination of the lube oil and so forth. Natgas or LPG burn super clean. (Neighbors are not a concern as they are 1/4 mile away at the closest.) As it is I frequently don't hear the 17KW LPG unit exercise itself unless I am in my shop closer to it than the house. Its LCD readout keeps track of all the important data and reminds you of oil changes etc.

Do I need 17 KW? No but... I can run any of my arc welders if I want to. I can run routers, planers, joiners, table saw, lathe, etc. and not just sit huddled under an electric blanket powered by a small inexpensive portable manual start gasoline genset. (good emergency strategy though.) I can run my ham station's kilowatt linear amp if I want to. I can run my hydronic in-floor heat with its geothermal heat pump and enjoy running around the house barefoot on warm tile floors. Not for everyone's taste or budget but we like it.

The most important decision is not the fuel your genset burns. Instead it is to have a genset that can be operated safely when you aren't there. This might assume your wife can pull start an economy model in freezing temps or the genset is an autostart unit with automatic transfer switch (highly recommended.) Better to have a smaller genset that is fully automatic (you may not be home when the power goes out) than a giant monster genset that is manual start and relies on extension cords or other Rube Goldberg approaches. Be safe. Also don't compromise the safety of the utility crews. The installation MUST ensure that you can not backfeed the grid. It is not only illegal but you could kill a worker who is out there in whatever horrendous conditions trying to restore your power.

Patrick.

 

[buickanddeere]

How many of the minimalists here don't understand that going with the absolute minimum spec generator . Is not the most cost effective route.
Operating a small consumer grade generator at more than 80% of max current continuous is NOT a good idea. A too small generator drops voltage and frequency when motors start. These conditions can burn out the generator, motor or other electrical equipment . The circuit breakers also take a beating with the extended surges of high current.

 

[patrick_g]

How many of the minimalists here don't understand that going with the absolute minimum spec generator . Is not the most cost effective route.
Operating a small consumer grade generator at more than 80% of max current continuous is NOT a good idea. A too small generator drops voltage and frequency when motors start. These conditions can burn out the generator, motor or other electrical equipment . The circuit breakers also take a beating with the extended surges of high current.

Amen brother, Yea verily "Right Sizing" a genset is NOT finding the smallest genset just barely able to run your steady state loads with no margin for the heavy startup loads of some equipment. The cheapest initial cost solution is often NOT the most economical overall. Recall James Cagney in "Soylent Green?" pedaling a stationary bike to spin a generator to watch TV. Great for your waistline but not a convenient long term way to power your frige and freezer. I personally don't like to run a genset long term at over about 70-75 % rated continuous output leaving sufficient reserve capability to start motors with no serious difficulties.

Trying to go cheap may actually cost more over time.

G'day y'all!

Patrick

 

[GManBart]

OK, I'll jump in on this. A couple years ago I had an automatic 20kw Generac running NG installed. I could have gotten by with a 17kw but the cost difference was only a couple hundred for the bigger unit.

We live in a rural area but have the convenience of NG. Now the Generac carb has a lever that you can switch from propane or NG so no worry about getting the wrong fueled unit. The GenSet also comes with a built in trickle charger that keeps the battery fully charged when your on the grid.

We have a well, septic lift pump, 2 fridges and a freezer, electric washer & dryer, dishwasher, 2 microwaves, 1700 sq ft detached heated garage, 3 electric garage doors, AC, alarm system... and a bunch of other stuff that I could go on listing. Oh yeah, and a wife that's a cousin to "chicken little"!

Now I went for convenience , no hassle, start up - run - shutdown even if we're not home, vacations etc. Do I care about fuel consumption.... he!! no. I care more about our home and contents. We do not want to return from an extended vacation.. whatever, and find the power went out 2 days after we left and have a big mess to clean up in the summer OR winter.

Now if we were home body's and were available to run extension cords, haul gas, manually activate transfer switch, we may take a different view of things, but I doubt it. There's just something about running extension cords through a open window at -15 F that don't appeal to me.

Now those that live in warmer climates could very well do with less, but where we live, the north woods, I don't want to mess around.

Anyone living in cold climates should have the cold weather kit installed on the unit, factory or dealer. Also whatever brand you choose (your choice) make sure the dealer is full service. There are a lot more dealers out there that do the install but not the mechanical service. You want one that does both.

A few details aside (we don't have a well) this is pretty much my situation as well. We could have gotten by with the 17KW, but for a couple hundred bucks went up to the 20KW. My wife works from home, but has a high level job, so she has to be able to work even if the power goes out....we have a backup internet hotspot and smart phone service so she can continue to take calls, check/send e-mails etc. They pretty much expect her to be available no matter what, or she could lose her job (her company is based in Washington, D.C. so there's no commuting option).

The other thing is that my wife is barely 5'2" tall, and just over 100lbs. I'm frequently gone for 1-4 weeks at a time for work. If we have an outage she's not hauling gas cans back and forth to the closest station (10 miles), much less dragging out a portable generator, and figuring out how to plug it in, and get it started....not happening.

As it stands, when we have an outage, my wife looks at me and says "that generator was the best money we've spent on our house!" It's run as long as 24 hours at a stretch, and a couple of times it was during extreme heat or cold situations (once nearly 100*F and the other sub-zero temps last winter). I sat inside, cool or warm, both times and couldn't have been happier about it!

 

[astrohip]

Just ran the whole house and well pump on my 5kw for 2 days straight. You guys needing 15-20kw units must have a house like a factory ( excluding farms ).

I have a 18kW Generac hooked up to natgas, with an automatic transfer case. There is no way I could run my house on 5kW, but obviously each situation is different. Two central a/c units, two refrs, lights, pool pump, yada yada.

My concern is not getting by for a few hours with minimalist survival parts running. It's when the hurricanes & tornadoes hit, and we lose power for 2-5 days. I want my entire house to stay alive, and I want it to kick on without human intervention. When you lose power in August, without a/c most housing in Texas becomes very uncomfortable, very quickly. Livable? Sure, but why put up with it if you don't have to?

But we each have our own situation, with our own constraints and wish & want list. That's why I love reading these threads, to read how others handle these issues.

 

[K man]

When in a black out situation I try not to use appliances like dryer, ac's, pool pumps, hot tubs or any other that really do not have to be run. Depending on the time of the season and temperatures. The less you use the more efficiently your generator will work and less costly. The cost of operating a gen is on how you use it. Just sayin.

 

[ultrarunner]

It seems from reading the posts that a lot of you have all electric or heavily electric homes?

I've only lived/owned in one all electric home and it does make a huge difference in planning when everything is 100% electric down the power needed for the pellet stove.

On the other hand... my almost 1300 square foot California home from the 1920's has a single 30 amp edison fuse for the main... soon to be a 100 years old and the main is from 1922.

When the big earthquake struck in 1989 neighbors were coming to me because they had remodeled and their homes were heavily invested in electricity...

I had gas hot water, gas cooking and gravity whole house central heat... add a few candles and life was good.

My Honda EX 1000 whisper quiet generator was enough to keep the freezer nice and frozen and enough to wash and then dry clothes...

Just saying we have different opinions based on different needs...

PS... when the outside temps dip below 60 everyone is pulling out their winter gear hear.... to me, the temp is just getting good for outside work...

 

[K man]

My home is a Century Log home ( all cedar logs) which is well insulated for keeping the house warm in the winter and cool in the summer no need for AC's.I have tried to convert to less electricity needs. I changed all the light bulbs to 7 watt LED lights, installed a on demand tankless propane water heater, propane oven/stove, heat with a pellet stove ( uses 1.2 amps to run fans ) also have a ERV air exchanger ( 1.4 amp) no AC's, no freezer. My generac 11 kw handles all my electrical needs. I also have satellite TV and internet. That's about it.

 

[daugen]

at my last home I had a 20kw Generac propane genset that came with their full package of autoswitching and autotest features. It worked flawlessly for four years. My sister installed the same one in her NJ house and it also ran perfectly. Both of us used professional installers and I believe my all in cost back then was about seven grand. My sister's for the exact same thing was 9. Because she lives in Princeton NJ and gets overcharged along with all her neighbors. The point is, first of all, the gasoline 3600 rpm units ran perfectly. Yes, annual oil changes on synthetic. Air filter never got any sign of dirt on it and plug changed every two years. It looked almost like new. Propane really keeps the engine clean; too bad they don't offer an 1800 rpm version making 12kw(?)

But there was a big concern with the unit. It constantly flickered the lights when the heat pump kicked in. One five ton unit, but 100% electric, toaster grid emergency heat. But even on regular heat, the lights would flicker and you could hear the unit groan and recover. Plus it was pretty noisy echoing off my next door neighbor's home.

So here I am at my new home, with a newish Westinghouse electric start 9000/7500 genset and extension cords. I exercise it monthly for several hours with several heaters plugged in. Always starts and runs great.
I feel pretty exposed actually; a tornado came down half a mile from my home last year. Freak tornado but one nonetheless. And in the last ten years they had one week long outage here.

It is very hard for me to pick up a full can of gas or diesel due to my arthritis and physical restrictions. So a whole house gen is my only option and I have a 500 gal propane tank all ready for it. Two gaspacks in the house plus one heat pump. Electric kitchen and two electric water heaters plus an electric instant on demand heater for the remodeled bathroom. So a lot of potential amp draw. 400 amp service, two 20 circuit 200 amp panels entirely full. So...all new panels needed, sigh, and power them with what?

The absolute best bang for the buck right now seems to be the Generac 22kw for say 4500 bucks including all the major parts needed.
The problem is that once you get past our "lawn mower engines" and go to basically car engines powered by propane or LP, the price jump is really huge. Now instead of 4500 bucks it's 11 grand and more and everything expensive is now a la carte. Plus more expensive install because the panels are usually bigger or have to be upgraded.

So I haven't done anything, as I'm kind of depressed about thinking about 15 grand generators. Heck, bet it would be closer to 20 to run that whole panel.

am thinking of a new panel with a subpanel running key circuits, like the center gaspack, skip the heatpump for the second floor, for sure skip the 4kw hot tub heater, and simply budget my usage to the limits of the 22kw unit. It seems to be the tried and true unit. Though I bet the Kohler is similar; then it gets down to the Ford/Chevy argument of whether you prefer a Kohler 999cc unit vs a Vanguard/Generac 999.

The only other gen I'd consider would be a Kubota diesel. I saw one of those at my prior Kubota dealer and it was a seriously fine looking piece of equipment. Not high value though, just high quality. Actually they appear more industrial/commercial units than residential grade. If I were keeping greenhouses with plants in them going in the dead of winter and used fuel oil for heat, they would be a nice solution. but too big for a house.

Great discussion here. And I think we all care about cost, or more relevantly, getting good value for our money.
sorry to go astray a bit; the OP's interest in a Westinghouse caught my eye and yes it is a good unit.

 

[GManBart]

Anyhow, before anyone gets any generator, you should really figure out what it really going to cost you when it runs... is it worth $500-$600-possibly thousands per week? Are you prepared to go away on vacation and come home to a multi-hundred possibly multi-thousand dollar fuel bill?

I cringe anytime I hear someone say they aren't concearned with how much something will cost.

If the power goes out when it's really hot or really cold, and it costs me $100-120/Day to run my generator (20kw Generac on NG) it's not that I don't care, but I know it's a lot cheaper than: paying to stay in a hotel, paying to fix broken pipes, paying to clean the basement, and repair water damage, paying medical bills after my wife hurts herself trying to lug a generator and fuel cans because I'm out of town. If she loses her job because she can't work from home (it's all phone and e-mail)...like during an extended outage, it means our family income drops by a huge amount....she makes more than I do. I did the rough math, and two weeks of her salary would have paid for our generator....money well spent.

This is why I always say it really depends on your circumstances, and not what works for anybody else. I have a coworker who's son requires home kidney dialysis while waiting for a transplant....he had to put in a standby generator running off NG to make sure they had power even if he was out of the country (he travels pretty regularly). He said he wasn't going to saddle his wife with a portable generator when she had all other manner of things to worry about when he was traveling....made sense to me.

 

[ultrarunner]

Home in Washington has a 400 amp service and the previous owner/builder put in one of those emergency generator 6 circuit panels to cover essentials with a cord to the back porch and used a Honda EM 5000...

It is far from automatic or seamless... it does cover all the essentials... not having propane, diesel or natural gas help me to decide to leave it as-is.

 

[ultrarunner]

Are any of you guys with the automatic whole house systems running into trouble with permits?

It can be real touchy here because the setback, noise limits, etc rule out the option for many in the city limits... plus the tax man comes out and my friend now has the privilege of paying another $300 a year in property tax.

No such restrictions on portable gensets with extension cords during an outage.

 

[grsthegreat]

Where is it getting the power for the charger ???

the generators power control is off (has 3 positions, auto,manual and off) when left in off, gen will not start, but it still has incoming power from house to charge battery

 

[Garandman]

S

When in a black out situation I try not to use appliances like dryer, ac's, pool pumps, hot tubs or any other that really do not have to be run. Depending on the time of the season and temperatures. The less you use the more efficiently your generator will work and less costly. The cost of operating a gen is on how you use it. Just sayin.

After Hurricane Sandy, folks made adjustments for heating and cooking and even clothes washing. But clothes drying became an issue as days went by without grid power.

We have an electric dryer in NH, and that was one of the considerations for a substantial genset. Short outage, not an issue.