Hmmmmm, navichevy?

[Builder]

I think the basic engine design of the 6.0 was good. The original computer program had to be changed too many times. The '04 F-350 6.0 I traded in gave me good service. The people I know with 6.0's don't seem to have any major problems with them. Problems get amplified over the internet. Kinda like saying the DuraMax would be a failure because of the aluminum heads. I've never heard of a head failure on the Duramax.

My '08 F-450 6.4 so far has been an excellent engine. Time will tell but it is a world apart from the 7.3 and even the 6.0 in power and drivability. The starting is instant, power is seamless. I agree that it seems much too complicated with the twin turbos. That system is several years old now since it has been used in the 4.5 Powerstroke in the LCF trucks built for both Ford and IH. Haven't heard that it's giving any particular problems.

Let's talk in 5 years. That's when I'll be convinced the 6.4l is a reliable, practical diesel.

I just can't walk down the same road with you on the 6L. That freakin thing cost Ford more money in warranty service than anything else in Ford history.
It did have known problems. The worst was the injectors. I read it cost Ford more warranty money in one year than the 7.3L cost them over the life of the 7.3L in warranty claims.

The 6L was never even in the same class as the DMAX, and neither is the 6.4L.....yet.

One other thing I never understood about the 6.4L : When it was being introduced, there was more fanfare than any diesel I've seen in 25 years. Then when it hit the street, its' performance ratings were the same as the DMAX (except low end torque, the DMAX has more low end torque).

WHY? Why on God's green earth would Ford introduce their next diesel only to fall short of the performance of their biggest competitor's 6 year old, single turbo diesel design????

Wouldn't you want to exceed your competition rather than fall short of it? Especially with all the high tech twin turbos and newer design?

Doesn't that seem really disappointing to you?

 

[JESSE1]

I have no idea why International designed the 6.4 with twin turbos while the Duramax and Cummins seem to do well with a single. I do know the 6.4 runs very well. No major engine problems seem to be cropping up, no doubt there would be lots of shouting on the internet if there were. The twin turbos just don't seem to be an issue.

I think the 6.4, 6.6 and 6.7 all should be comparable in performance. All the engines are rated at 350-365 hp and about 650#/ft torque. For long life and durability in a light duty truck I think that's the limit. Naturally, a tuner or chip can be added for more hp but that's going to stress any engine. I'm pleased with what Ford has built. If I need more horsepower I'll get a bigger truck.

My first diesel pickup was a new '82 GMC with the 6.2 diesel (130hp). After replacing 3 blown head gaskets and 1 cracked head I traded it for a new '85 Ford with the 6.9 diesel. Since then I've had Fords with the 7.3 idi, 7.3 idi turbo, 7.3 Powerstroke, 6.0 and now the 6.4. The engines have gotten more powerful but lots more complicated. Still no way would I trade my current truck with the 6.4 for any of the others.

 

[Builder]

I have no idea why International designed the 6.4 with twin turbos while the Duramax and Cummins seem to do well with a single. I do know the 6.4 runs very well. No major engine problems seem to be cropping up, no doubt there would be lots of shouting on the internet if there were. The twin turbos just don't seem to be an issue.

That's because the 6L was so problematic, that naturally the 6.4L would have to be under the microscope for any problems.

"I think the 6.4, 6.6 and 6.7 all should be comparable in performance. All the engines are rated at 350-365 hp and about 650#/ft torque. For long life and durability in a light duty truck I think that's the limit. Naturally, a tuner or chip can be added for more hp but that's going to stress any engine. I'm pleased with what Ford has built. If I need more horsepower I'll get a bigger truck."

Can't totally agree with you because the 6.4L has to rev considerably higher to reach peak torque compared to the DMAx or the Cummins. The hallmark of a diesel engine is grunt low-end torque. The more and earlier it comes on, the better. That's what gets heavy loads that diesel trucks pull or carry moving. It also saves on fuel because less RPM & fuel is required to move loads. Ford is in a distant 3rd place for low-RPM torque. I also read that the 6.4L sucks down fuel worse than their competition, but I have no statistics. Lower off idle power than the DMAX or Cummins may explain the lower fuel economy.

My first diesel pickup was a new '82 GMC with the 6.2 diesel (130hp). After replacing 3 blown head gaskets and 1 cracked head I traded it for a new '85 Ford with the 6.9 diesel. Since then I've had Fords with the 7.3 idi, 7.3 idi turbo, 7.3 Powerstroke, 6.0 and now the 6.4. The engines have gotten more powerful but lots more complicated. Still no way would I trade my current truck with the 6.4 for any of the others.

I hear ya. I was on my 14th Ford diesel truck. All set to buy my 15th back in March. I just couldn't bring myself to buy the 6.4L because of the added complexity and lower torque ratings at off idle RPM than the DMAX. There were other reasons (transmission & rear differential are superior in GM), but i don't want to go into that. It's too off topic.

 

[JESSE1]

Low end torque is more an issue with manual transmissions. My '85 F-350 had a 4 sp manual but for some reason they didn't put the granny low first on the manuals with the diesel. With a load it was hard to get started without slipping the clutch. I've never had a problem starting with any load when I had an auto. That even applies to the 6.2 diesel I had. That truck had a TH400 with a 4.10 axle. Trying to keep up with traffic was a different story.

As far as revving higher, I don't think most people care. You're really not talking that many more rpm's. They still rev considerably slower than a gasser.

 

[Builder]

Low end torque is more an issue with manual transmissions. My '85 F-350 had a 4 sp manual but for some reason they didn't put the granny low first on the manuals with the diesel. With a load it was hard to get started without slipping the clutch. I've never had a problem starting with any load when I had an auto. That even applies to the 6.2 diesel I had. That truck had a TH400 with a 4.10 axle. Trying to keep up with traffic was a different story.

As far as revving higher, I don't think most people care. You're really not talking that many more rpm's. They still rev considerably slower than a gasser.

I enjoyed our chat, but I would respectably disagree.
With weights being similar and given the same 1st gear gear ratio, the diesel that develops the most low end torue will launch better and use less fuel over the life of the truck. I like to buy reliable diesels that develop the most low end torque for that reason. I think many other experienced diesel owners think the same way.

Enjoy your truck. Merry Christmas.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Well I am a 6L fan. I have 2, a 2004 F-250 4x4 and a 2006 F-350 SRW 4x4 alog with a 1999 7.3L F-350 SRW 4x4. They are all great and never had a wrench or computer on them. I have chips on all three trucks along with exhaust and intake upgrades. I tow up to 25,000# with the 06 F-350 and it will walk away from the Dura Max I had, a 2005 piece of junk. They get great millage, 17 city, 24 highway and I have seen as good as 17 towing a 15,600# boat to Tenn in August. I towed a 7,000# camper with my 3500 Dmax and saw 9.75 mpg, I got 8.5 mpg with the same trailer behind a F-150 gasser. The Fords are also built heavier. I have taken every truck I have owned across the scales with just me in them and 3/4 tank of fuel and the Gm product is much lighter, 700# on similar trucks.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Diamondpilot.... I think that in different threads you have called both GM and Dodge diesels junk (correct me if I'm wrong on the Dodge - obviously one of your GM comments is right above this). Now you report towing 25,000 lbs with a F350 - and a single rear wheel model at that! - which is at least 7000lbs over its max tow rating. Wonder if you towed that much over the rating on the GM and Dodge products and that's why you had problems with them. I'm not saying Ford makes a bad truck, just saying that judging from extreme abuse (misuse) is not a good basis for commenting on the quality or durability when used as intended. I'm not a professional trucker but I think it's nuts to tow 25k with a 8k truck rated to tow maybe 18k tops.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Diamondpilot.... I think that in different threads you have called both GM and Dodge diesels junk (correct me if I'm wrong on the Dodge - obviously one of your GM comments is right above this). Now you report towing 25,000 lbs with a F350 - and a single rear wheel model at that! - which is at least 7000lbs over its max tow rating. Wonder if you towed that much over the rating on the GM and Dodge products and that's why you had problems with them. I'm not saying Ford makes a bad truck, just saying that judging from extreme abuse (misuse) is not a good basis for commenting on the quality or durability when used as intended. I'm not a professional trucker but I think it's nuts to tow 25k with a 8k truck rated to tow maybe 18k tops.

Even if this is the case, as Builder pointed out in other threads a truck should be over built. So if his Ford can handle the heavier weight and his GM didn't in his mind the Ford is built better and from his experience it would be true.

I really don't care who's truck is better or who's motor is better. These trucks are all very similar and all of them will do what they are designed to do. Builder has fell in love with the Duramax and he is passoniate about that motor as well as the GM medium duty trucks. I will never own one, not because they are not decent trucks but because I have no use for one and if I did it would most likely be a flat bed like my friends use at their machine shop. The Powerstroke has never failed me yet and I don't see it being an issue. Why does it have to be around 5 years before anyone will buy it? If that was the case with any motor no one would be buying vehicles. If anything I would be more comfortable with the 6.4l since Ford did have problems with the early 6.0's and they were on a short leash and needed to put out a good motor so I am sure they did their homework and had their parents check it also in regards to the 6.4.

But what does this have to do with the topic? It seems like another peeing contest about who's motor is better. When this deal is all said and done who is to say International doesn't put the crappy 6.4l in these great GM medium duty trucks

Have fun guys. There is 35 minutes left in Christmas for this year and I am going to enjoy it.

 

[Builder]

Even if this is the case, as Builder pointed out in other threads a truck should be over built. So if his Ford can handle the heavier weight and his GM didn't in his mind the Ford is built better and from his experience it would be true.

I really don't care who's truck is better or who's motor is better. These trucks are all very similar and all of them will do what they are designed to do. Builder has fell in love with the Duramax and he is passoniate about that motor as well as the GM medium duty trucks. I will never own one, not because they are not decent trucks but because I have no use for one and if I did it would most likely be a flat bed like my friends use at their machine shop. The Powerstroke has never failed me yet and I don't see it being an issue. Why does it have to be around 5 years before anyone will buy it?

Because the 6L was so troublesome, that I would want the 6.4L to be proven over quite some time before I trusted it. I would have no doubts about buying a 6.7L Cummins based on the success of the 5.9L Cummins. I would have no hesitation buying the next generation of DMAX based on the track record of the 6.6L DMAX.

" If that was the case with any motor no one would be buying vehicles. If anything I would be more comfortable with the 6.4l since Ford did have problems with the early 6.0's and they were on a short leash and needed to put out a good motor so I am sure they did their homework and had their parents check it also in regards to the 6.4.

But what does this have to do with the topic? It seems like another peeing contest about who's motor is better. When this deal is all said and done who is to say International doesn't put the crappy 6.4l in these great GM medium duty trucks

Have fun guys. There is 35 minutes left in Christmas for this year and I am going to enjoy it.

Because the IH 6.4L version doesn't have twin turbos and is much more conservatively rated in HP and TQ. It's not being pushed to the limit of its' power and will live longer for that reason.

BTW: I'm not in love with GM medium duty trucks. I think what you're referring to is the comparison between the 450/550 and the GM 4500/5500. In that case, I like the GM product better for many reasons. I actually like IH medium trucks the best based on ownership experience and what some other guys I know operate.

 

[wushaw]

Well I am a 6L fan. I have 2, a 2004 F-250 4x4 and a 2006 F-350 SRW 4x4 alog with a 1999 7.3L F-350 SRW 4x4. They are all great and never had a wrench or computer on them. I have chips on all three trucks along with exhaust and intake upgrades. I tow up to 25,000# with the 06 F-350 and it will walk away from the Dura Max I had, a 2005 piece of junk. They get great millage, 17 city, 24 highway and I have seen as good as 17 towing a 15,600# boat to Tenn in August. I towed a 7,000# camper with my 3500 Dmax and saw 9.75 mpg, I got 8.5 mpg with the same trailer behind a F-150 gasser. The Fords are also built heavier. I have taken every truck I have owned across the scales with just me in them and 3/4 tank of fuel and the Gm product is much lighter, 700# on similar trucks.

25k in the flat land yea I can see that, a little rough and a pretty good pucker factor. Try it in the mountains and none of them (class 3 trucks) are safe.

 

[Builder]

I couldn't imagine getting 24 MPG on the highway with one of todays 300+ HP diesel pickups unless I was traveling downhill with a tailwind and the engine was shut off. 17 city is unimaginable, too in my 20 years experience with diesel pickups. I'd have to go back to a N/A 6.9L or 7.3L from the 80's unladen for that kind of fuel economy.

I get 17MPG on the highway unladen with a light foot. I've got dozens of friends & aquiantances with diesel pickups we take to the mountains, hunting and to work sites. NONE of them get more than 14-16 with a light foot.

Best I ever saw was an unloaded 12V Cummins reg cab getting about 18-19MPG on a long highway trip we took.

If you read the forums on the diesel pickup websites, most claim the Fords get the lowest MPG of the big 3.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Diamondpilot.... I think that in different threads you have called both GM and Dodge diesels junk (correct me if I'm wrong on the Dodge - obviously one of your GM comments is right above this). Now you report towing 25,000 lbs with a F350 - and a single rear wheel model at that! - which is at least 7000lbs over its max tow rating. Wonder if you towed that much over the rating on the GM and Dodge products and that's why you had problems with them. I'm not saying Ford makes a bad truck, just saying that judging from extreme abuse (misuse) is not a good basis for commenting on the quality or durability when used as intended. I'm not a professional trucker but I think it's nuts to tow 25k with a 8k truck rated to tow maybe 18k tops.

Not Dodge. I would love to have a Cummins in a Ford body. I have never owned a Dodge Diesel but I did have a 2500 4x4 Hemi that left a lot to be desired. It lacked power and was in the shop non stop. It had 2 trannys operations, 8 radiator cooling fans, power steering pump, and ac compressor plus numerous other things in the less than 2 years I had it. I never towed more than 10,000# with this truck. It replace a 2001 F-150 that towed the same load and never gave me a day of trouble even though it was over its limit.


I have had 2 Gm trucks, one a S-10 Blazer that needed a engine and transfer case before 36,000 miles, and a 2005 3500 Dura max 4x4. The 2005 was in the shop in the first month for a faulty sensor then again about 6 months later. During this time it also had the hood hinge break while I was changing one of the 25 plus fuses I had to constantly replace in it. When the hinge broke the hood came back on the drivers side and cracked the windshield. This truck never got good mileage compared to my Fords. I towed a 7,000# trailer to Key West and averaged less than 10 mpg. I have done this trip with my F-150 and did 8.5 mpg. This truck never towed more than 15,600# and it was a struggle. It seemed to search for gears way to much.

Yes, I work my trucks, but they are tools for me. They are super clean and look like new 3 years down the road. They get washed weekly, waxed all the time, vacuumed, ect. They all get the oil changed every 5,000 miles period. I do it early if I know they will miss a scheduled change. They also get all other service that is called out in the book. It may seem as I am bashing GM but I had bad luck with them and even worse luck getting the dealers to make it right. I had trouble with my Dodge but they were great as a company and would buy another product from them if Ford ever does me wrong.


As for towing the heavy loads I leave that to my F-350. It can handle the 25,000# trailer like it nothing. I would not do this with any other truck I have owned. Yes its way over the limit but that is a risk that I take. I will do so with no complaints and gets 13 mpg at 60 mph which is my max speed with this load. I am a Ford fan. I have had 10 F series trucks since 1996 along with a Expedition, Mountaineer, and a Milan. I have had 3 recalls on these vehicles combined and only had one in the shop for a bad dash cluster and the Mountaineer for a bad power window. Will I change? My be if Toyota or Nissian keep doing what they are doing but I will never own another GM and would Consider a Dodge if they can convince me.



Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

Why is 24 mpg hard to believe? Many of the D-max owners are getting 21 with no modifications and 3.73 gears. I modify all my trucks with chips, exhaust, and intakes. I have tried quite a few but I have gotten the best results with Quadzilla products. I do drive in relative flat land, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee most of the time. I drive a total of 25-30K a year in my vehicles. I have learned over time driving diesel vehicles to drive by the tach. Keep it where it makes the most torque and you will get good results. On my F-350 with the 6L and 3.73 gears this is 1900 rpm and 79 mph on the highway. I have tried below and above this rpm and the millage goes down either way.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Why is 24 mpg hard to believe? Many of the D-max owners are getting 21 with no modifications and 3.73 gears. I modify all my trucks with chips, exhaust, and intakes. I have tried quite a few but I have gotten the best results with Quadzilla products. I do drive in relative flat land, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee most of the time. I drive a total of 25-30K a year in my vehicles. I have learned over time driving diesel vehicles to drive by the tach. Keep it where it makes the most torque and you will get good results. On my F-350 with the 6L and 3.73 gears this is 1900 rpm and 79 mph on the highway. I have tried below and above this rpm and the millage goes down either way.

Chris

I'd believe someone if I were allowed to look in their truck and read their average fuel economy read-out on their computer display. Otherwise, this old guy long time diesel truck owner believes what he sees, not what he reads or hears. Show me a readout that averages between 17 & 24 mpg over the life of the truck and I might believe it.

We're gettin way off topic, so maybe this is better for another thread.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I guess International wants to buy the GM Medium truck business mainly so no one else gets it

Very, very common approach in business these days.

Does International also get access to GM's dealer network? It's probably bigger than International's.

 

[herringchoker]

Does International also get access to GM's dealer network?

Yes, according to Navistar's press release, that's part of the deal.

 

[Builder]

Very, very common approach in business these days.

Does International also get access to GM's dealer network? It's probably bigger than International's.

Not in the scope of bigger trucks. IH has the biggest medium heavy sales/service network in the US.

 

[KICK]

I'd believe someone if I were allowed to look in their truck and read their average fuel economy read-out on their computer display. Otherwise, this old guy long time diesel truck owner believes what he sees, not what he reads or hears. Show me a readout that averages between 17 & 24 mpg over the life of the truck and I might believe it.

I agree with you Builder, most of the mileage claims are so inflated as to be humorously dubious. Of course there are children on this board and they are known to exagerate.

although sometimes my 5.4 V* equipped Eddie Bauer 4x4 Expedition sees 39 mpg, usually when I back off the gas coasting down a incline. see, it does get 39 mpg....LOL.

the worst person in the world to lie to is yourself, hopefully they don't believe their own claims and plan all their fuel stops based on those..

 

[Diamondpilot]

Come to my home and pay to fill up my truck. Take it out on the Freeway and drive it the way I have stated, by the tach and see if you don't get my claims. I can make the truck get 10 mpg if I drive like everyone else out there but it you drive them the way I was shown you will get the same results. My next door neighbor was getting 12 mpg city and 16 mpg freeway with his D-max until I did some research and he took my advise. Now he is getting 15 and 20 with no modifications. Don't doubt it until you see it. There are literary hundreds of if not thousands of Diesel trucks in my county due to it being next to most of the major camper manufactures and they need delivery drivers. These guys and gals drive more in a month than most of us will in a year so they know the way around these trucks. I simply listen to what they had to say.

Chris