help me understand

[chsdiyer]

I see many 2013 BX25's for sale for around $14,500-16,000ish. I know tractors hold their value, but i'm trying to understand why a 4 year old used Kubtoa is the same price as the brand new equivalent Massey Ferguson (GC1710 $15,500 + tax). If I'm not mistaken the GC1710 has better performance than the BX25. Can someone in Kubota land tell me if the used BX25's are really worth buying over a new GC1710?

 

[jeff9366]

I cannot speak to the Massey-Ferguson but the Kubota BX25 is a FULLY INTEGRATED tractor-loader-backhoe design/package, not just a Backhoe added to a tractor-loader as a module. You cannot purchase a BX25 without the integrated Backhoe.

Kubota invented the residential tractor segment and the BX25 and its predecessor models have always led the "with Backhoe" sub-category in residential tractors.

Other tractor manufacturers ignored Kubota's growth for ten years, expecting the residential tractor category and Kubota to disappear. Well, that did not happen. Kubota has about half of all residential tractor sales in the USA.

Access to very cheap Japanese finance capital at ten year duration of 9/10s of 1% (yesterday) for "0%" consumer financing of Kubota products helps too.
[US ten year treasury note yesterday was 2.39%]

Others, like you, note excellent Kubota resales. If you purchase with "0%" financing for five years, as almost all Kubota tractor customers do, and resale is high, moderate difference in purchase price is not significant.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I think it is the same principle as my B26 Kubota TLB. The whole tractor is designed around having a backhoe. My B26 is basically the same engine as a B2650 but weighs substantially more than a 2650 with a back hoe added because of the extra strong FEL/ backhoe integrated undercarriage which is evident in the amount of force difference in the FEL lift, backhoe curl and lift weights.
I am not that familiar with the BX25 but I think you will find the BX25 to be in the same category as my B26 analogy above if you check the specs of it and the MF tractor.

Also Kubota's just tend to hold their value better than almost any other CUT tractor.

 

[chsdiyer]

Thanks for the replies! I know Kubota has a great reputation and i can understand why they'd have good resale value but why would you want to buy something used (not knowing how it's been treated) when you can get something new for the same price that seems to perform better. I guess in this instance it's more a question of is kubota that much better than Massey Fergusson? As far as i can tell, the two tractors are built the same in that they are both made to be TLBs. I think the BX25 (now 23) new is about the price of the GC1720 by Massey, but that GC is 25hp I believe. Comparing the GC1710 and BX25...
GC1710:
Breakout force 920 lbs
*Lift to full height at pin 870 lbs
*Digging depth 77.5 in
*Bucket force 2476 lbs
*PTO power 18.7 hp


BX25:
*Breakoutforce 992 lbs
Lift to full height at pin 745 lbs
Dig depth 73 in
bucket force 1936 lbs
pto power 17.7 hp

On paper it would seem the Massey is better and I don't often see them sold used, but the BX25 I see used fairly often (probably cause they sell a lot more of them) and always for about the price of the new GC1710. People buy up the used BX's so I'm just trying to understand, is there a reason or just for the reputation? I don't know much about tractors so i'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something, but it seems to be a no brainer to get the Massey. Although my local dealer doesn't have a great reputation so I might be better off with a Kubota, but if I can get a better tractor and new for the same price...it's hard buy the used one.

 

[ThirdMan]

I think some of the advantages of the Kubota are the dealer network (parts and service readily available), more third-party support (specialized equipment easy to add), and other people will pay a premium when you sell. Think about Apple or Samsung vs smaller phone manufacturers.

 

[LVKubota]

I was very close to buying a new Kubota since it was within a few thousand of the asking price of a used one.

The 0% for 84 months seemed like a no brainer.

Then the mandatory insurance came up on the Kubota financing causing me to recalculate......when I got the private party seller to drop a few thousand more off his asking price, the lightly used Kubota seemed like the better deal.

I went ahead and did the oil change this weekend, will do a complete fluid change in few more hours....peace of mind and she's now on my maintenance schedule.

 

[mile9c1]

The GC1710 doesn't have as as many factory implements as the Kubota (quick attach snow blade, grass catcher, etc.) But if you don't care about those items then you can't go wrong with a new tractor for less money. The GC1710 is definitely a nice unit.

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks for the replies! I know Kubota has a great reputation and i can understand why they'd have good resale value but why would you want to buy something used (not knowing how it's been treated) when you can get something new for the same price that seems to perform better. I guess in this instance it's more a question of is kubota that much better than Massey Fergusson? As far as i can tell, the two tractors are built the same in that they are both made to be TLBs. I think the BX25 (now 23) new is about the price of the GC1720 by Massey, but that GC is 25hp I believe. Comparing the GC1710 and BX25...
GC1710:
Breakout force 920 lbs
*Lift to full height at pin 870 lbs
*Digging depth 77.5 in
*Bucket force 2476 lbs
*PTO power 18.7 hp


BX25:
*Breakoutforce 992 lbs
Lift to full height at pin 745 lbs
Dig depth 73 in
bucket force 1936 lbs
pto power 17.7 hp

On paper it would seem the Massey is better and I don't often see them sold used, but the BX25 I see used fairly often (probably cause they sell a lot more of them) and always for about the price of the new GC1710. People buy up the used BX's so I'm just trying to understand, is there a reason or just for the reputation? I don't know much about tractors so i'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something, but it seems to be a no brainer to get the Massey. Although my local dealer doesn't have a great reputation so I might be better off with a Kubota, but if I can get a better tractor and new for the same price...it's hard buy the used one.

I'm not a Kubota owner, but I do read a lot about them and their escapades here on TBN. I think you're looking at apples to oranges on some level here. You compare used to new, price point of the two categories, and maybe rightly conclude for the $ the new tractor is a better deal than the used tractor with the stellar reputation.
I also can't comment on the Massey line, which I know even less about, but as an observer of how you're doing your comparison I would hazard a guess you could be right, but you might be wrong too. Confused yet?

I think with most tractors, the resale value sticks close to the new models pricing, or the used ones don't depreciate in the same way as a car does, for instance. BUT, why would one buy used when one can get new for same or less money, in the sense that more or better, on paper features (numbers you show for side by side stats) seem to exist.

If it were me I'd want to know what a used MF would bring several years down the road, based on what you can find in the market line of their current and past tractors. That might be where it costs you in the long run. It may be better deal now, only to lose some of it on the back end, assuming you go to sell or trade in a few years.

You may break even, or it may not make any real difference, IF you plan on keeping whatever you buy for a long time. AND, you did mention a not so good reputation of your local MF dealer- which could factor in more if you need their services during and after warranty.
Usually though most recent tractor brands for what I see as vast majority of buyers hardly ever need dealer service during/after sale; so it may not be a big deal if you get a screaming good buy at purchase time.
Hope this helps sort things somewhat for you.
Good luck with your decision. Let us know what you decide.:thumbsup:

 

[rScotty]

I see many 2013 BX25's for sale for around $14,500-16,000ish. I know tractors hold their value, but i'm trying to understand why a 4 year old used Kubtoa is the same price as the brand new equivalent Massey Ferguson (GC1710 $15,500 + tax). If I'm not mistaken the GC1710 has better performance than the BX25. Can someone in Kubota land tell me if the used BX25's are really worth buying over a new GC1710?

The two tractors - BX25 and GC1710 - do seem very similar. You are being very analytical, but we already know that popularity doesn't have to have a logical reason. So perhaps it's nothing more than popularity... Or it might be that there is some reason that doesn't matter to you.
As you have already seen, there isn't much price difference between slightly used and new. As to whether new or used is preferable mechanically...well, I think that is debateable when we keep in mind that a tractor is probably going to last a lifetime with little or no mechanical issues.

I hope that you go test both machines, see what you think, and let us know what you find. Until you do that, it's all speculation anyway.

A few years back I tried a Massey and was surprised at how much room the operator had compared with Japanese-derived tractors of the same HP. I nearly bought it for that reason alone. You might find something similar to like.
luck,
rScotty

 

[Grandad4]

I see many 2013 BX25's for sale for around $14,500-16,000ish. I know tractors hold their value, but i'm trying to understand why a 4 year old used Kubtoa is the same price as the brand new equivalent Massey Ferguson (GC1710 $15,500 + tax). If I'm not mistaken the GC1710 has better performance than the BX25. Can someone in Kubota land tell me if the used BX25's are really worth buying over a new GC1710?

Another point to consider regarding the retention of value is that tractors - even little baby tractors - follow a long tradition of being much more maintainable/repairable than, say, automobiles. Old school tractors were expressly designed so the farmer could do many repairs in the field so he could keep using it. That's not so much the case today but it is still very likely that a 4 year old Kubota (or other make also), works and performs exactly the same as the day it came from the factory, and will continue to do so for many years. So its functionality as a tool for doing work is very close to a brand new one, and few tractor buyers care about styling as long as the work gets done.

As for comparing prices between brands, it's mostly demand and popularity, I think. In the automotive world, a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are more popular than whatever car Mitsubishi sells that's equivalent (I don't even know what model that would be). It's a good bet the Honda and Toyota have higher resale value than that Mitsubishi, regardless of whether they are better cars or not.

 

[chsdiyer]

Thanks a lot for all the feedback! I'm still in a pickle on what exactly I need. I love the smaller size of these two tractors and that I could afford having a backhoe especially for trenching and thinning out my woods. But I'm sure i'd find a ton more uses for it. But I think I'll also need a bit more lift capacity and bigger implements for later tasks. In that case I'm considering a used Kubota that has more hp. I was leaning toward the Massey as a better deal, but if I go with one tractor then the other, I'll probably care more about resale value and the used BX25 might be a better route. I don't think I've seen any used GC1710/20's for sale...though if I remember correctly I saw one a while back here and I think he was asking about what the new price is...so maybe they hold their value well too. Thanks again for all the feedback, it's given me a better perspective on used tractors value. It's still confusing to me though in thinking about. I can understand why the tractor is still valuable and wouldn't depreciate much, but why would someone buy it over new. I guess it's the cash buyer who'd like to save a little bit and trusts the quality. When we were looking at mobile homes to live in while we build a house, we could get a new single wide delivered and set up with warranty and financing for about 50k. I've heard people say they did this and even made a little money when they sold it, but logic would say you'd have to discount that mobile home significantly to make it appealing to someone buying yours over new. Buying our used one they would have less financing options if any, they'd have to pay transport and hookup and they'd lose the warranty. It would seem you'd have to discount it to at least cover the cost of delivery and set up as well as further discounting to not just be at the new price when done but depreciate to make it worth it for the buyers to buy yours. So if delivery and set up was going to cost someone 10k, you'd have to discount more than that to make it attractive to them. But like I said i've heard of people telling me they actually made money off the sale of their 1-2 year old mobile home. So I guess I just don't get the used market pricing for tractors or mobile homes, but it works and some things hold their value and people will buy them. I guess Kubota has the Honda affect. It might not necessarily be a better tractor than Massey, but enough people value them and appreciate their network that they'd rather buy that used over a new something else. Like buying a used Honda over a new Kia. I personally think the Kia is a better value and just as good a car, but the market pricing says otherwise. That might have been too much rambling...sorry.

 

[mile9c1]

Just buy what you like. Nobody knows resale value in the future (also list prices are not actual sale prices). I bet the BX25 prices will come down after more people realize there is a BX23S.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks a lot for all the feedback! I'm still in a pickle on what exactly I need....(snip)

I guess Kubota has the Honda affect. It might not necessarily be a better tractor than Massey, but enough people value them and appreciate their network that they'd rather buy that used over a new something else. Like buying a used Honda over a new Kia. I personally think the Kia is a better value and just as good a car, but the market pricing says otherwise. That might have been too much rambling...sorry.

I don't think it is too much rambling. I'm an older guy whose values date back over half a century now, and I find the newer ways of looking at things fascinating.

This whole "new versus used" debate is particularly interesting to me. Tractors are incredibly reliable compared to most any other manufactured item - so I'm not surprised to find good used ones holding their value.
Back when machines were simpler, owner maintenance was accepted. One result of that was that mechanical knowledge became commonplace. Today's machines are more complex and more technical - way beyond most owner's abilities. The new stage IV pollution control devices may represent a pinnacle in complexity. But does technical complexity make them more valuable? More reliable? Or less so?

Luckily there's a ton of those older tractors out there. Because they last so well, they provide a reasonable alternative to buying new. But financing is another story altogether. Like so many things, being able to take advantage of obvious good deals on used machines tends to require ready cash. So it may be that the access to financing is the most significant change in tractor value.
enjoy,
rScotty

 

[wagne223]

On paper it would seem the Massey is better and I don't often see them sold used, but the BX25 I see used fairly often (probably cause they sell a lot more of them) and always for about the price of the new GC1710. People buy up the used BX's so I'm just trying to understand, is there a reason or just for the reputation? I don't know much about tractors so i'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something, but it seems to be a no brainer to get the Massey. Although my local dealer doesn't have a great reputation so I might be better off with a Kubota, but if I can get a better tractor and new for the same price...it's hard buy the used one.

You are correct in that you see more used Kubota's simply because there are so many more sold. In this class of tractor, Kubota outsells Massey 5 to 1.
My opinion on why is simply that kubota pioneered this small tractor market, has a great dealer network and good customer service. Add to that some easy financing and incentives and you can see why there are so many of them. It is easy for a person to upgrade when their tractor is 4-5 years old.

Notice none of that has to do with the tractor itself.

I'm a Kubota guy because of the dealer network and I am comfortable on them. I shopped all the brands, and Kubota was the fastest to respond to my questions and my quote. Kubota dealer is closest to me. Also, the others were only about $2K less on a similar equipped tractor. For me it was worth the $2k for the dealer network and the reliability.

 

[chsdiyer]

So in all my searching and considering my budget, the LS XG3025H seemed to be a no brainer. Today I found a 2013 Kubota L3200HSD with about 100 hours on it. Both packages would come with quick attach buckets, pallet forks, rotary cutter, and box blade. They are priced about the same though I think the LS will come in slightly cheaper. It seems the LS has a larger lift capacity which I still can't figure out. I hear people say, it's a 35hp tractor with a 25hp motor in it, but is the frame doing the lifting or the motor? Seems the Kubota should be able to lift more, but on paper it doesn't. The kubota certainly has more PTO power.

So a while back I posted a thread trying to understand why one would chose a used Kubota when they are more expensive than new other brands. And now I appear to be in that dilemma.

I really like the idea of buying new and the front loader capacity is certainly more appealing to me for LS, but nearest LS dealer is 2 hours away. Not sure how big an impact that is, i'd probably service it my self and most the guys in the LS forum haven't had the need for any warranty work.

Kubota certainly has a good reputation and that one is older but still practically new. Local Kubota dealer is about 10 miles away.

Anyone have any thoughts on this.. I'll probably post in the LS section as well.

For me our needs are installing and maintaining a 500ft driveway, a workhorse for building our house...moving supplies around, removing some sapling areas 1-3" gum trees and wax myrtle, moving tree logs to mill,etc. Mostly front end loader work with some box blade for the driveway. Also will need the PTO to get the land graded (about 1.5 acres).

There's also a 2015 L2501 (gear drive) with ansung backhoe and box blade 1000-1500 less. Not sure I could do without HST though.

 

[Grandad4]

In the compact tractor market, loader specs are the equivalent of horsepower with automobiles. Customers mostly just look at how much a tractor is advertised to lift, and make a judgement about the relative strength of the overall tractor. But behind all the advertising hype, the basic laws of physics apply to all loaders, and different manufacturers make individual choices about how to design their particular model. For example, suppose a manufacturer wants to have a very rugged loader design and builds his loader with 300 lbs more steel in the arms and bucket to make it stronger. Well, guess what... all other things being equal, his more durable loader now has 300 lbs. less payload it can lift. Here's a hint: It can work in the other direction too. If you know buyers are only paying attention to "lifting capacity", you might be tempted to shave a few pounds here and there in the loader design. Is that a good thing? How many buyers even think about that? Another example: Maybe the manufacturer wants to make sure his design can lift a payload up to a certain height, such as for loading into a truck. That's another trade-off: the higher the lift, the less total lifting ability... simply a matter of geometry. Again, something for each buyer to consider.

Of course more lifting power is an advantage, but I've always tried to size my equipment so it works at maybe 75% of its rated capacity in general use. In other words, have a 25% reserve for special situations. So, with loaders, give or take 10% of ultimate lifting capacity shouldn't be the deciding factor.

But this is all just one guy's perspective, and I'm sure others will have their own ideas.

 

[Wormwood]

Grandad has the right idea & to better illustrate this compare MF's FEL to Kubota's you might notice that the MF FEL is built & design around dimensional steel stock while Kubota's is fabricated from forged hinges that are welded to a unique piece of steel. When working with standardized steel stock shapes may limit you on your geometry with a FEL or Backhoe.

Also, I've always said that in the Kubota's environment, the engineers all strive to be on the BX design team. It's the BX tractors that make Kubota the most money, so only the finest, most senior engineers get the chance to participate. It's the American equiv. of the Corvette desgin team at GM.


Wormwood

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Last fall I found out that the used Kubota price points are moving downward. I credit that to the new BX 0 outlay and 83 mo 0 financing to drive the used pricing downward. Folks buying small tractors do not have the means to pay cash like you need to buy used (try financing a used one). Trying to sell my 2011 vintage BX with 1500 hrs turned out to be a drill in frutility at the price I set based on other adds. As soon as potential buyers saw the 1500 hrs they immediately started pushing their offer downward toward more than a bargain zone. All said they were looking for 300 hrs or less which is where most used BX are with the casual home owner use. So, I still have the tractor and a bunch of implements. As it turned out for my downsizing new dwelling I am putting it back to work and I am back to the normal 50 hrs/yr zone. A paid for tractor is a lot better than renting one so ++ for now.

Ron

 

[rScotty]

Last fall I found out that the used Kubota price points are moving downward. I credit that to the new BX 0 outlay and 83 mo 0 financing to drive the used pricing downward. Folks buying small tractors do not have the means to pay cash like you need to buy used (try financing a used one). Trying to sell my 2011 vintage BX with 1500 hrs turned out to be a drill in frutility at the price I set based on other adds. As soon as potential buyers saw the 1500 hrs they immediately started pushing their offer downward toward more than a bargain zone. All said they were looking for 300 hrs or less which is where most used BX are with the casual home owner use. So, I still have the tractor and a bunch of implements. As it turned out for my downsizing new dwelling I am putting it back to work and I am back to the normal 50 hrs/yr zone. A paid for tractor is a lot better than renting one so ++ for now.
Ron

Thank you Ron, you've just answered a question that has been bothering this old dog and some of my beer-drinking buddies for years now. Basically, we simply could not understand why that people wanting their first tractor wouldn't prefer to buy a used one. Used machines are a great way to learn more for less dollars. But reading through the TBN forums we can see that it isn't happening, & we just couldn't figure out why.
Part of it had to be that us older guys grew up in a more mechanical world than is common today. But that argument only goes a little ways because it's also true that mechanical work isn't all that complicated for anyone to learn. As the saying goes, "It's wrenching, not rocket science".

But if the reason for preferring new equipment involves price and financing rather than wear, tear, and repair then maybe us oldsters are at last starting to understand why the bottom has fallen out of the used machine market.
Mechanically there just isn't any reason why a normally maintained machine designed to last as long as a tractor is going to notice a functional difference between 300 and 1500 hours. Maybe cosmetically or in things like paint, tires, and cables...., but not mechanically.
Thanks for the insight,
rScotty