Help Me Choose What to Test Drive

[Maddog10]

Hello everyone. New to the forum but I've used it for years to research various questions and issues I've come across. My wife and I are in the market for a new tractor. From my research I have an idea of what I *THINK* I need, but rather than coming here and saying I'm looking at tractor X, Y, and Z I think I'd rather explain the uses and see if I'm close or if I'm out of line. I will say I'm primarily looking at Kubota, Mahindra, and JD. Just trying to narrow down on the models. I am open to suggestions on other brands though.

Background
I've used a Mahindra 3505 DI for pretty light duty applications all my life. My family lives on about 18 acres. 10 of it is rented to a farmer but the other 8 we maintain. Tractor use has always been limited pretty much to just using the brush-hog around the field, tilling the garden, hauling off the occasional dead tree, things like that. It's a 2WD tractor and has no FEL.

Property
My wife and I just bought a property down the road that is an additional 15 acres and is primarily wooded. It has a long gravel driveway up through the woods to the clearing where we plan to build a home in the next two or three years. The clearing is about 3 acres that I currently keep mowed with the brush hog, but the woods have been neglected for many years and are full of debris, fallen trees, thorn thickets, etc. The property has a gentle slope up from the road to the top of the hill where the clearing is, but the back portion of the property (North of the barn) has some pretty significant hills. I've been doing some work out here but the current tractor just isn't cutting it. See below for some pictures to get an idea of the property. In the aerial photo it is the wooded property shaped like a boot.









New Tractor Uses

- Mowing. Initially just the 3 acre clearing and sides of the driveway, but as I clean up the woods I want to make/maintain trails and potentially even have the woods thinned enough to mow the entire property underneath the canopy of mature trees. Once home is built the 3 acres clearing will become a yard and will be mowed with zero-turn.
- Maintaining Driveway and grading
- Cleaning up and maintaining woods. This will involve removing a lot (and I mean a lot) of downed trees. Many are small, many are not. I think I absolutely want a grapple attachment and the ability to lift trees that are in the 24" diameter range. Will be collecting firewood as well.
- General FEL work
- Possibly fencing/post holes in the future but not a priority

Using the information given, I'd love to get your thoughts on what would be a good fit for my property and uses. Like I said, I feel like I have an idea of what I think I need to get the job done but I'm curious to hear from many of you who are more experienced than me to see if I'm under/over estimating my needs. Please let me know your thoughts and the reasoning behind them. If you have any questions, obviously don't hesitate to ask. Thanks!

 

[Citydude]

Welcome aboard. It’s always fun to go tractor shopping.

My question is why didn’t the 3505 fit your needs? Lack of FEL? No front wheel assist? Other?

 

[paulfun9]

Why limit yourself to just 3 brands?

Test drive them all and choose the one that fits you best.

 

[Maddog10]

Welcome aboard. It’s always fun to go tractor shopping.

My question is why didn’t the 3505 fit your needs? Lack of FEL? No front wheel assist? Other?

Lack of FEL is the primary reason. Trying to drag logs and brush out via chain has just proven to not be as efficient as I'd like, and this past weekend I had to borrow a neighbors tractor to load topsoil onto a trailer for a raised bed garden. I just think it's time for a FEL. A couple years ago I priced adding an aftermarket FEL. Took a lot of digging to find something still in production that would "probably" fit and if I remember right it was going to cost like $9K installed. My grandfather bought the tractor new in 2001 for just over $10K, so to me that didn't make economical sense. Would rather put that money towards another tractor... 2WD surprisingly hasn't been a problem, but if I get a new tractor I will definitely get 4WD, especially since it will have a loader.

 

[Maddog10]

Why limit yourself to just 3 brands?

Test drive them all and choose the one that fits you best.

Not limiting myself at all. As I said I'm open to any and all suggestions, including other brands. I would just need to research dealers of other brands near me because I'm not aware of them. I am aware of local dealers of the brands I mentioned, thus the reason I've spent most my time on them.

 

[jeff9366]

Mahindra 3505

???? - 2003
Next model: Mahindra 3525

Manufacturer: Mahindra
Factory: Maharashtra, India

Mahindra 3505 Engine:
Mahindra 1.9L 3-cyl diesel
Mahindra 3505 Power:
Engine: 35 hp [26.1 kW]
PTO (claimed): 27 hp [20.1 kW]

3-Point Hitch:
Rear Type: I,II
Rear lift: 3,525 lbs [1598 kg]

Power Take-off (PTO):
Rear PTO: live
Rear RPM: 540

Dimensions
Weight: 3,900 lbs [1769 kg]
Mechanical:
Steering: hydrostatic power

Hydraulics:
Pump flow: 8.3 gpm [31.4 lpm]

Electrical:
Charging amps: 36

Battery:
Volts: 12

Page information:
Last update: April 3, 2018
Copyright: Copyright 2018 TractorData LLC
Contact: Peter@TractorData.com

 

[jeff9366]

My wife and I are in the market for a new tractor. I'm primarily looking at Kubota, Mahindra, and JD. Just trying to narrow down on the models. I am open to suggestions on other brands though.

Background
I've used a Mahindra 3505 DI for pretty light duty applications all my life. My family lives on about 18 acres. 10 of it is rented to a farmer but the other 8 we maintain. Tractor use has always been limited pretty much to just using the brush-hog around the field, tilling the garden, hauling off the occasional dead tree, things like that. It's a 2WD tractor and has no FEL.

Property
My wife and I just bought a property down the road that is an additional 15 acres and is primarily wooded. It has a long gravel driveway up through the woods to the clearing where we plan to build a home. The woods have been neglected for many years and are full of debris, fallen trees, thorn thickets, etc. The property has a gentle slope up from the road to the top of the hill where the clearing is, but the back portion of the property (North of the barn) has some pretty significant hills. I've been doing some work out here but the current tractor just isn't cutting it.
- Mowing. Initially just the 3 acre clearing and sides of the driveway. As I clean up the woods I want to make/maintain trails and potentially even have the woods thinned enough to mow the entire property underneath the canopy of mature trees. Once home is built the 3 acres clearing will become a yard and will be mowed with zero-turn.
- Maintaining Driveway and grading
- Cleaning up and maintaining woods. This will involve removing a lot (and I mean a lot) of downed trees. Many are small, many are not. I think I absolutely want a grapple attachment and the ability to lift trees that are in the 24" diameter range. Will be collecting firewood as well.
- General FEL work
- Possibly fencing/post holes in the future but not a priority

Your controlling application is removing a large quantity of trees and tree debris on 15 acres of sloping ground. Focus tractor research on tractor weight, tractor width, wheel/tire ballast, Three Point Hitch counterbalance and 4-WD. Most tractors have one standard FEL, sometimes one option, so FEL lift capacity is a sub set of tractor weight (+/-).

The weight of your Mahindra, ~~3,900 pounds, seems spot on.

Shop your weight range within tractor brands. Budget will eliminate some choices. Collect a dealer brochure for each tractor model in your weight range. I spreadsheet tractor and implement specs, often a revealing exercise. I have a column for cost per pound.

You need rear axle width for stability but at the same time you need to pass between trees.

Buy a 10' stick of 1-1/2" PVC pipe, which will not sag. Cut to 70" width and mark at 62". This will replicate the rear tire width of likely tractor candidates with R4/industrial tires. Walk around your property and determine how well your potential tractor will fit between trees. When I did this I found access required 60" width tractor rather than 66" width tractor which I had under consideration. As you may change your mind, or your varied needs change, I recommend a de luxe tractor, which will allow adjusting spread of R4 tires in increments. Economy tractors do not have R4 stance adjustment.

Tractors with a bare weight of 3,700 to 4,000 pounds will have a real life FEL lift capacity of around 1,700 pounds, including the grapple. This will be ample, ample on sloped ground. You will need two good chainsaws, one with a 15" bar and a second with a 25" bar to cut up trees.

You will need considerable Three Point Hitch counterbalance for max FEL/grapple lifts. Usually counterbalance is an implement but you may want a more compact 1,000 pound weight box to keep the FEL/tractor/counterbalance unit as short as possible for maneuverability.

You will be doing a lot of burning as well as operating in woods. Inevitably front tires will contact hot coals. Six-ply, tough, R4/industrial tires for you, which are routinely fitted to FEL tractors. Load the rear tires 3/4 with liquid to lower the center of gravity and help hold down the rear end. In warm Florida many 3/4 load rear tires with plain tap water. Some prefer external iron wheel weights to internal tire liquid.

I am only familiar with Kubota models. Deere offers de luxe models in the 4,000 pound weight range. Mahindra probably does not.

Within Kubota's model range I recommend 'Grand L' models with HST/PLUS transmission.
The L3560 is a singular lighter/narrower model with optional LA805 Loader. In the wider models I recommend L4760 with LA1055 Loader or L5460 also with LA1055 Loader.

Grand L models are well worth the money as you age. I am growing old with an L3560.

VIDEOS: Kubota HST Plus Transmission Features - YouTube

Kubota Grand L - YouTube

Good luck in your research. Anticipation is 50% of satisfaction.

 

[Citydude]

Lack of FEL is the primary reason. Trying to drag logs and brush out via chain has just proven to not be as efficient as I'd like, and this past weekend I had to borrow a neighbors tractor to load topsoil onto a trailer for a raised bed garden. I just think it's time for a FEL. A couple years ago I priced adding an aftermarket FEL. Took a lot of digging to find something still in production that would "probably" fit and if I remember right it was going to cost like $9K installed. My grandfather bought the tractor new in 2001 for just over $10K, so to me that didn't make economical sense. Would rather put that money towards another tractor... 2WD surprisingly hasn't been a problem, but if I get a new tractor I will definitely get 4WD, especially since it will have a loader.

OK, thanks. I had a similar situation with a no FEL Kubota L3400. The cost of a new FEL on that was 7K. So like you, I went shopping.

If the size of the 3505 seems appropriate for the tasks you needed it to do, then I’d say you have an idea of the size you need.

Test drive all the local brands, spend time at each dealership to get a sense of their commitment to their product and your needs.

Have fun!

 

[Egon]

For the tasks described a tractor similar to mine would work well. JD 4200 hst with loader and backhoe. The backhoe would see lots of work cleaning up the woods & making trails.

Tractor details: Note, this tractor is being used for example purposes.
[video]http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/001/8/0/1809-john-deere-4200.html[/video]

 

[Maddog10]

Really great info guys. Thank you Jeff for that detailed explanation.

I am in the same ballpark as what everyone seems to be recommending and agree that the determining factor for my use will be the lift capacity. For mowing, driveway work, and general land maintenance I could get by with a pretty small tractor, but for the lift capacity and stability I have been looking in the 40 hp range.

I have never driven a HST transmission (well, my zero turn mower) but I look forward to trying one out. I have driven a shuttle shift which is a massive improvement over the traditional gear transmission that I'm used to with my Mahindra, especially for the stop and go work that I do... Would you guys consider HST to be a "must have" for working in the woods compared to shuttle shift? I hope my test drives will kind of answer this question for me, but curious to hear what you think.

Also, in the Mahindra lineup I'm struggling a little to see the key differences in their 2600 series, 3600 series, and 4500 series. I did a spreadsheet as Jeff mentioned and the weight increases pretty significantly with each jump so is the primary difference just physical size or is it features as well? For example the 2645 is 44/36 hp @ 3285 lbs, the 3640 is 40/31 hp @ 4367 lbs, and the 4540 is 41/31 hp @ 5192 lbs... Gut feeling is the 2600 series might be a little on the light side for me, but the 3600 series would be in play.

 

[dodge man]

I would consider an HST a must have. Where a gear tractor is best is putting power to the ground, like plowing a field.

 

[jeff9366]

HST is especially good for maneuvering. Infinite speed control when approaching a FEL load. Zero tractor rollback on hills when you let up on the foot throttle. With HST forward/reverse change is effected with foot rocking the right foot pedal, described as a treadle pedal. On slopes, carrying debris in a grapple, good to have left hand for the steering wheel, right hand ready to drop FEL via joystick, AT ALL TIMES.

Kubota's HST/PLUS is multiple increments of improvement over all other HST transmissions. Grand L operators extol the half-step HST shift-on-the-fly ranges available with the flick of a wand on the steering column. Great for Loader work and mowing. I like Stall Guard, which it is easy to forget as it operates in the background. I stall my tractor no more than once per month. As I age I like being able to moderate control reaction speed. I have control reaction speed slowed to 70% of default.

Much, much, much, much more to HST/PLUS. You pay a chunk for HST/PLUS and PLUS is worth it.

When operating on hillsides good to have just a little more horsepower pushing HST relative to gear.
I made this allowance offering Kubota model recommendations.

VIDEO: Kubota HST Plus Transmission Features - YouTube

 

[jeff9366]

In the Mahindra lineup I'm struggling a little to see the key differences in their 2600 series, 3600 series, and 4500 series. I did a spreadsheet as Jeff mentioned and the weight increases pretty significantly with each jump so is the primary difference just physical size or is it features as well? For example the 2645 is 44/36 hp @ 3285 lbs, the 3640 is 40/31 hp @ 4367 lbs, and the 4540 is 41/31 hp @ 5192 lbs... Gut feeling is the 2600 series might be a little on the light side for me, but the 3600 series would be in play.

Your controlling application is removing a large quantity of trees and tree debris on 15 acres of sloping ground. Focus tractor research on tractor weight, tractor width, wheel/tire ballast, Three Point Hitch counterbalance and 4-WD. Most tractors have one standard FEL, sometimes one option, so FEL lift capacity is a sub set of tractor weight (+/-).

There is a market for "old school", technologically simple tractors everywhere. In India, the highest volume market for tractor sales in the world, technologically simple is the entire market. Depends where in the USA you are shopping but in many states Mahindra and Branson compete for lowest price per pound of tractor weight. As owner/operator of a 25-year old Mahindra 3505 you will feel immediately at home on a new made-in-India Mahindra. (Smaller Mahindras are manufactured in South Korea, badged for Mahindra.)

Kubota 'Grand L' tractors are at the opposite end of the compact tractor spectrum. The Lexus of tractors.

 

[Milo]

- Mowing. Initially just the 3 acre clearing and sides of the driveway, but as I clean up the woods I want to make/maintain trails and potentially even have the woods thinned enough to mow the entire property underneath the canopy of mature trees........
- Cleaning up and maintaining woods. This will involve removing a lot (and I mean a lot) of downed trees. Many are small, many are not. I think I absolutely want a grapple attachment and the ability to lift trees that are in the 24" diameter range. Will be collecting firewood as well.

Others here are offering good advice on tractors, and I believe a grapple will get a lot of use. Do you have a UTV (side-by-side) Maddog? I have acreage that consists of a lot of woods and I find myself using my UTV in them way more than my tractor. Used it to carry my saw and Still brush cutter to put trails in. I only had to cut a few large trees because I tried to go around or between them but had to clear a lot of small stuff up to maybe 6" diameter. When I ride the trails now I carry a saw and loppers in the back to clean up whatever falls across them. UTV is handy for carrying cut firewood as well. I did use my tractor bucket (Kubota B7500 at the time) to carry material for fill in a few places and still do maybe once or twice a year to dump some stone in a wet rut or grapple something, but generally I find that a tractor with a loader and ballast box can be pretty cumbersome in the woods. Three maybe four times a year I run my ZTR over the trails with deck all the way up for keeping the weeds and grass down.

I occasionally walk through the woods to cut large vines or invasive plants such as multi flora rose. It is really none of my business but I will just ask.... why thin out the woods everywhere to mow? Wildlife appreciate and actually need all the undergrowth, small understory trees, standing dead trees, downed trees, brush piles, etc. and the rotting wood is good for making more soil. It is enough work just maintaining the trails I couldn't imagine trying to pick all the rock and tree debris in the woods and keeping it that way to mow.

Nice looking property BTW!

 

[Thomas]

Not less than 30hp and frontend loader,since your land some what flat HST transmission...most of all make sure your wife comfortable operating the tractor.

 

[airbiscuit]

A trip to the John Deere Dealer and test driving several sizes will give you an idea what feels right to you. I like eir numbering system, because it relates to frame size. My preference for your described needs (regardless of brand) would be a 40 - 45 hp large frame CUT.
Here is what I put together as a "general" guide.

 

[Maddog10]

Others here are offering good advice on tractors, and I believe a grapple will get a lot of use. Do you have a UTV (side-by-side) Maddog? I have acreage that consists of a lot of woods and I find myself using my UTV in them way more than my tractor. Used it to carry my saw and Still brush cutter to put trails in. I only had to cut a few large trees because I tried to go around or between them but had to clear a lot of small stuff up to maybe 6" diameter. When I ride the trails now I carry a saw and loppers in the back to clean up whatever falls across them. UTV is handy for carrying cut firewood as well. I did use my tractor bucket (Kubota B7500 at the time) to carry material for fill in a few places and still do maybe once or twice a year to dump some stone in a wet rut or grapple something, but generally I find that a tractor with a loader and ballast box can be pretty cumbersome in the woods. Three maybe four times a year I run my ZTR over the trails with deck all the way up for keeping the weeds and grass down.

I occasionally walk through the woods to cut large vines or invasive plants such as multi flora rose. It is really none of my business but I will just ask.... why thin out the woods everywhere to mow? Wildlife appreciate and actually need all the undergrowth, small understory trees, standing dead trees, downed trees, brush piles, etc. and the rotting wood is good for making more soil. It is enough work just maintaining the trails I couldn't imagine trying to pick all the rock and tree debris in the woods and keeping it that way to mow.
Nice looking property BTW!

We do have a UTV. It's a 2017 Kawasaki Mule Pro FXT. Absolutely love it and use it daily. Short wheelbase, can be 3 seater with full size bed or 6 seater configuration with small bed. Best piece of machinery that my family owns. Here's a picture of me and my son picking up sticks pulling down some huge vines that had climbed an old oak tree along the driveway.

As for the woods, we are still on the fence as to what exactly the plan is. It seems to change daily. We've discussed full clearing of the back woods except for 20-30 mature trees, we've talked about clearing an area for a nice pond, we've talked about just creating trails and leaving the rest for deer/turkey (we currently have one main access trail cleared that loops around the back). That trail was cleared by an excavator and the trees are piled up along the side of the trail. We love the wildlife and they are especially abundant in our front woods which is going to remain as-is except for just picking up fallen trees and clearing deadfall that could be dangerous for the kids while they play in there. The back woods though is scraggly and mostly scrub trees that block what would otherwise be one of the best views in the county. Our building site is at the top of a hill and you can see for miles but the trees block most of it. Like I said, not exactly sure the plan. This is view looking East which is clear other than the treeline I'm standing in.

 

[Maddog10]

Productive day. Made it to one of the three towns with dealerships that I intend to shop before making a decision and had an opportunity to at least sit in all three models I'm considering. Got quotes on all models loaded out with FEL, 6' rotary cutter, 6' box blade, 3rd function installed, and 6' grapple.

I approached all my conversations the same as I did this one. I didn't go in looking for a particular model or size, I just tried to accurately describe the work I intend to be doing and allowed them to size the tractor for me. All three ended up in that 40 hp class.

Mahindra 5545 4WD Shuttle Shift
- 43/34 hp
- 5,567 lbs
- Price w/ attachments (well, forks instead of grappler): $33,620

Spec wise this tractor gets the nod. It was by far the heaviest and had the highest lifting capacities while also coming in at the cheapest price point. Sounds good, yea? Well that's about where the good stopped. The dealer relationship didn't go well from the start. Salesman seemed relatively disinterested from the word "hello". Maybe it's because I'm a young guy and he didn't consider me a serious buyer, maybe he was just having a tough day, I don't know. He also for some reason refused to price me the grappler attachment, insisting I get pallet forks instead. Ensured me I'd never hook up a grappler if I had a set of forks, and maybe he's right, but I left the dealership still not knowing the price of the grappler that I wanted... Anyway, on to the tractor. I initially thought it seemed like a nice tractor but I noticed right away I did not love the ergonomics from the seat. For such a large tractor I was surprised by the lack of leg room. Also, the loader control lever was stuck and I could not raise the bucket. Salesman slammed the lever back and it broke free, raising the bucket as it's supposed to. He claimed "these tractors sit out and don't get used so sometimes they get stuck." Alright, if you say so? I test drove it around the parking lot and the shuttle shift was nice, worked smoothly. All in all I felt that even with nothing to reference it against I could tell that Mahindra was going the economy workhouse route by sacrificing luxuries and comfort for an impressive machine that gets the job done at a budget price. I'm not ruling this one out yet, just going to chalk it up to a bad experience and certainly will not be buying from that dealer. It is far from the front-runner right now though.


John Deere 4044R 4WD HST
-43/34 hp
- 3,770 lbs
Price w/ attachments: $44,000

This was the second stop of the day and was an eye-opening experience after the first one. Salesman was very professional and genuinely interested from the outset, did an excellent job explaining the features of the tractor and took the time to explain the difference between the M series and R series. Some of it got lost in translation, but I felt so much more knowledgeable about the machine before ever even climbing into the seat. Wow, the difference was immediately noticeable compared to the Mahindra. The seat suspension and spacing in the cockpit alone instantly put the comfort factor well above it's competitor. All the controls and ergonomics seemed comfortable, hitch assist seems awesome, and I could just see and feel the quality difference in most every aspect. Unfortunately, all these amenities don't come for free and it was significantly the highest priced machine of the day, likely out of the budget range that I was considering.

Kubota Grand L4060 4WD HST
- 42/32.5
- 3,759
- Price w/ attachments: $35,000

Another great experience at the Kubota dealership. The salesmen were all busy when I arrived so I started looking on my own. Started with the L3901, which I quickly decided was too small of a frame and lacked the loader capacity for what I wanted. I then moved on to an L4701 which is what I was looking at when a salesman arrived. I explained my needs and expected uses for the tractor. He explained to me (basically echoing what Jeff said) that the sizing decision for my tractor should be based more on the lifting capabilities rather than the horsepower since most of my tasks were not heavy hp-dependent, which I agreed with. He then explained that at the same price point I could move from the L4701 to the Grand L4060 which has a beefier chassis, higher lifting capacities, and all the bells/whistles at the expense of 7 hp. I have to admit that this idea won me over. They didn't have a L4060 on-site but they did have a L5460 that I was able to sit on. Loved pretty much everything about it. Spacious, comfortable, the ergonomics made sense, and the features of the Grand L seem quite practical. The salesman told me that the company has a L4060 at another location and that he would have it here for me to test drive by the end of the week.

The search continues, but right now the Kubota Grand L has a commanding lead.

 

[airbiscuit]

Yep...

 

[jeff9366]

I have many hours on a 35-horsepower 'Grand L' HST/PLUS operating over flat terrain.

An L4060 with HST/PLUS will feel underpowered to you working on hills during day two (2) of ownership. Fine on flat terrain.
LA805 FEL spec lift is circa 1,750 pounds.

L4760 and L5460 with HST/PLUS have enough power for hills and grapple loads.
LA1055 FEL spec lift is circa 2,300 pounds.


When operating on hillsides good to have just a little more horsepower pushing HST relative to gear.