Help getting tractor started

[Richard]

Ok Guys… helpppppppppp

Here’s the background.

Last winter I was cutting some paths through the fields so we could walk the dogs in ankle height grass instead of waist height grass.

As I was just about the farthest point from home (isn’t it always like that?) the tractor suddenly died. The way it died would be analogous to you driving along in your car (gas) at speed with the throttle set at a certain level…then someone reaching over and simply turning the key off. As the car dies, there is no sputtering, no coughing no power no nothing… just a coast to a stop.

That is the best analogy I can come up with as to what happened.

Ok, so we towed tractor home. By the way, it belongs to my wifes uncle who doesn’t like to spend 10 cents on fixing ANYTHING (nor washing as you will see).

Tractor sat over the winter & my wifes cousin (who also lives next door) was going to take it in to get fixed. I suggested we rule out the easy things first like fuel filter. Seems the fuel filter had not been changed in probably 10 YEARS!!!

Over time, he put new fuel filter, cleaned air filter (oil bath type), fixed the exhaust and we were ready to start it.

It refused to start. Finally, he was on top of tractor trying to start it (via shorting 2 wires as opposed to using a key or button which don’t exist!) and I was bleeding it. Finally it caughed, sputtered and started.

Smiling, he drove it to its usual parking space and left it for while.

Fast forward number of weeks and we go out to start it and it refuses to start. Bleed it again and there it sputters & goes. Again, we parked it without using it too much.

Go some more weeks and it won’t start again. I finally think it might be a weak battery (they are prone to pulling a 5 year battery off boat that hasn’t been used (yes, in 5 years) and look at that as a “new” battery since it’s not been “used”)

I put a FRESH battery on it and it STILL won’t crank over very well. I might add the starter smoked a little bit every now & then too. Probably all the oil on it simply getting hot.

Ok… so tinkering around, I take starter off and find a crack in the bell housing end of it, some chips on the bendix so I figure it’s got to be part of the issue. I take it out & have it rebuilt.

Now (and we’re finally getting to last week) we have new fuel filter, new battery, rebuilt starter and WOW, this thing cranks over like a bat out of … !!

Still won’t start so I bleed it again and it takes off. Moved it, turned off. Went to turn back on an hour later and had to bleed it again.

Today, I jumped on it and fired right up. Put my new finish mower behind it & started cutting the field.

Got the field about ½ done and just like back in winter, the engine just died, as though someone turned off the “ignition”.

It has only sputtered once since then and I’ve been trying to start it for probably 2 hours.

On the fuel pump are two bleeders (I presume). I’ve taken the lower one off and when I get fuel squirting out of it, replace screw and remove top bleeder. Sometimes I get fuel squirting out of the top and sometimes I don’t.

It’s making me think there might be some kind of primary & secondary pump inside this fuel pump and I might have an issue on the secondary side?

One time while I was trying to start it I wondered to myself if perhaps something was loose inside the pump and maybe if I wiggled the throttle it might change the relative position of what ever might (possibly) be loose. Interestingly enough, the tractor DID start all the sudden suggesting that maybe that was something to think about.

Moments later, tractor died

Some facts:

As I try to start it, there is NO sputtering, NO smoke coming from tailpipe, NO coughing no NOTHING. It’s as though the fuel is shut OFF.

I DO think that every time I’ve tried (and succeeded) to start it, by happenstance, the “first” injector was cracked to bleed it (nearest the fan blade).

Sometimes I get NOTHING squirting out the upper bleeder hole (again, presuming that is in fact what it is) and sometimes I get a STREAM shooting out the upper hole. When I get a stream shooting out, the tractor coughs/sputters and has usually started if only briefly.

My assessment is since there is NO signs of fuel getting to any cylinder, it’s not an injector issue but either the fuel pump is on its last leg or perhaps, we might have some kind of trash in the fuel line (which is possible). When I say no fuel to cylinder, I mean no STREAM of fuel… it does “bubble out” but no real pressure unless tractor starts.

There is what appears to be a fuel inlet on the back side of the fuel pump (opposite of fan side). Is that in fact the fuel inlet and if so, might there be some kind of screen/filter in that location?

I’ve tried to remove it and honestly, as I unscrew it I can loosen it up some then all the sudden I can NOT loosen it any more and the tube will NOT separate from the pump. Kind of frustrating actually! It seems to unscrew it from one side, actually tightens it up on the other side.

Ok, so that’s the basic story, any thoughts WILL be appreciated!!!

I might add that the two bleeders are circled in red and the fuel inlet is also circled with the funky backward screwing part circled. you can see the threads on both sides of the nut....well...above it anyway.

 

[3RRL]

Looks like an elbow on that fuel line going into the injector pump? And then it's screwed into a reducer of sorts? Is it a steel line and brazed on to that elbow? You might have to cut it and unscrew the elbow first, then take the reducer out.

I'd follow that line to see if it comes from your fuel tank and then blow it out. You can replace it or the cut off section with regular fuel line and hose clamps. After doing that, I'd check to see if there is a filter or screen coming from the fuel tank going into that steel line. Clean or replace it if there is one. Then I'd remove the lines going to your injectors and see if fuel is coming out of the injector pump where they were connected to it. There's got to be some blockage of some kind.

 

[Richard]

Well Rob, you get the prize of the day!!

I was scratching my head telling my bro in law that the inlet tube was VERY maintainence UN-friendly... no way to seperate the two...

Then I went out and looked a little closer (read that to be, moved some caked on gunk)

Looked closer and on the engine side (back side) of the inlet tube was a flair fitting!!!

I removed that and you are right, there was a reducer... don't know the size but let's just say a 1/2" into a 3/4". That now explains why I saw threads on both sides.

Removed the fixture, took it apart and reapplied some teflon tape (carefully as to not get any inside the fuel path) put tractor back together and I just now got back in from finishing the field!!

Seems last winter, I was simply checking for fuel flow and thought this is where a filter was so I tried to unscrew it. It didn't work but that must have broken the seal and let air get into the fuel or simply killed my vaccume.

Unbeknown to us the fuel filter was last years probable culpret and I unwittingly created a second, hidden issue. We got everything fixed but never thought about this....until today.

So, Rob... your gift coupon for a trip for two to Hawaii is in the mail!!

(pay no heed that it expired 3 years ago)

 

[JerryG]

Richard,
I don't remember where I saved this from but it should have all the information that you need to bleed the pump.
edit: I didn't see that Rob had already taken care of the problem.

 

[sandman2234]

I like to read posts like this where the original poster actually tells the whole story, with a good deal of the history. I didn't see the model of the tractor, but it turned out not to be needed.The best part is it got fixed!!
David from jax

 

[3RRL]

...snip...
So, Rob... your gift coupon for a trip for two to Hawaii is in the mail!!

(pay no heed that it expired 3 years ago)

Hahaha Richard, thanks for that...
You know the old saying "Even a blind squirrel finds..."

 

[Richard]

Well...here's a cruddy update.

I DID manage to get the field cut today after this "it won't start" fiasco.

Upon finishing the field, I was puttering up the driveway and just like before, the darn thing just DIED on me. No sputter, no cough, no passing go (and no trip to Hawaii )

here's what all I did today when I got it "fixed"...

1. Took fuel filter OFF to see if I had a trickle of fuel coming from the gravity fed tube. I did. I don't know exactly how much I should expect to see but I saw a constant "dribble". It did not come gushing out, but it was MORE than "dripping" out.

2. Put filter back on & took its bleeder cap off, when it flowed fuel out, I put bleeder bolt back in.

3. Disassembled the part mentioned and pictured above, put new tape on the threads and reinserted all back into fuel pump.

Interestingly, once I did all this, I removed the lower bleeder screw on the fuel pump and without starting the tractor (or cranking it over) fuel soon started dripping out. I replaced screw & removed upper screw, again without cranking engine...shortly, fuel started to drip out of this one.

This fuel dripping out did not happen PRIOR to taking the bushing apart and applying new tape to the threads (resealing it)

I took that immediately to mean the tractor would start and all was well. The tractor DID start fairly quickly and worked as I would have expected.... up until the end when I was going to the driveway and it just died on me.............

arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Well crap... and double crap... I just remembered soemthing....

During the time when I had the reducer bushing apart, I turned the fuel petcock off. I do NOT remember turning it back on. Hmm... if I didn't turn it on and it was functionally off (meaning it actually WORKED) then I should not have had fuel for the 1 hour I spent cutting the field...

I wonder if since I had it at high RPM's if that was enough to overcome the fuel petcock and pull fuel past it... then when I was done, backing off the RPM's, the suction went down and the petcock killed my fuel flow...

hmm... guess I'll be having smelly hands tomorrow too as I figure this one out.

If of course, the petcock is off... I'll have to find some exoctic excuse to blame as opposed to my stupidity.

 

[3RRL]

Oh sure, so now I suppose I'm not getting trip to Hawaii?
I would think when you had the fuel filter off, the fuel should be gushing out the tube. Makes me think you might have some debris in your fuel tank floating around? Sometimes it floats over the outlet and stops it up or restricts the flow enough to starve the engine. That is my guess.

 

[Egon]

Also make sure the fuel tank is vented.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Check the LIFT PUMP. On the opposite side of the engine from the main injector pump is a small fuel pump that pushes fuel through the filter an to the injector pump. On that Perkins diesel, (recognize that CAV pump anywhere!) the lift pump has a small lever action "manual pump" feature to help bleeding the system. Some even have a sediment bowl built in. (most don't) That pump goes bad from time to time. (I've had that to happen) One way it fails, you get diesel fuel in the crank case. Another way it fails, you get fuel leaking out of the pump and down the side of the motor. The 3rd way it fails, and from what I gather, the least common way is the diaphram leaks, allowing the pump to suck in air, causing the injector pump to "air lock". When mine failed, that last "rare" way is how mine went. The engine just "died" like you described. I bled the injector pump and FINALLY got it running. 2 days later, the same thing all over again. I checked all the usual suspects. (fuel shut-off, filter(s), screens, ect) I even started to suspect the injector pump. I had always heard the lift pump failing would show as fuel in the oil pan. Not! After attempting to prime the injector pump (unsuccessfully) with the manual pump lever on the lift pump, I bought (About $22) a new lift pump. I bled the system and she ran like a new one. No more issues. If the lift pump is an original, you can get a rebuild kit through AGCO for less than a new pump. It's a breeze to rebuild and you don't have to remove the pump's main body from the engine. As far as I know, there's 3 types of pumps. One has the sediment bowl attached. Another attaches to the block with 2 bolts, and the last type attaches to the block with 4 bolts. I think the model with the sediment bowl is replaceable with the 2-bolt non-sediment bowl design.

Hope this helps.

 

[Richard]

transfer pump?

I looked for one and didn't see one. The fuel flow (gravity) goes from tank down to filter (on right side of engine). out of the filter, UNDER the engine and back up on the left side where you see the injector pump.

The line comes up and essentially, does two 90 degree turns (ok, so I'm rounding ) . The tube comes up, bends over then has the 90 elbow on it that takes it into the bushing of the injector pump.

This morning, I removed again, the fuel filter and had a trickle of fuel. I blew backwards through the inlet hole into the fuel tank. The fuel just BLEW out the inlet tube after I blew it clean. So, I've clearly got something blocking the inlet of the tank that I need to clear out.

Once I did that, the tractor is running (starting) quickly so I'm HOPING that is/was my problem.

Not going to touch it for couple days & let my wifes cousin (actual owner) clean the tank out

 

[Richard]

I meant to mention this in my last post...sorry for not doing so.

The tractor is an International 444, my father in law thinks it's date of birth was early/mid 60's

I didn't think the make of tractor would actually matter (and I suppose it still doesn't other than perhaps someone knowing if that model had a transfer pump or not)

By the way, an hour ago I went to move the tractor which was in my driveway hooked up to my battery charger. Fired up like a little kitten!!

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I meant to mention this in my last post...sorry for not doing so.

The tractor is an International 444, my father in law thinks it's date of birth was early/mid 60's

I didn't think the make of tractor would actually matter (and I suppose it still doesn't other than perhaps someone knowing if that model had a transfer pump or not)

By the way, an hour ago I went to move the tractor which was in my driveway hooked up to my battery charger. Fired up like a little kitten!!

I didn't know the 444 used a CAV injector pump. That's the same as a Perkins diesel (common to Massey Ferguson, some Allis Chalmers, ect) The International Harvester application may or may NOT use a primary pump. Any IH experts out there may be able to enlighten BOTH of us.

 

[JerryG]

I didn't know the 444 used a CAV injector pump. That's the same as a Perkins diesel (common to Massey Ferguson, some Allis Chalmers, ect) The International Harvester application may or may NOT use a primary pump. Any IH experts out there may be able to enlighten BOTH of us.

That's funny. I thought the same thing about it being a Perkins.. That is why I posted the bleed picture and information above.

 

[Richard]

That was one of the things confounding me.

My backhoe (JCB) does have a Perkins and the transfer pump died on it once making it act JUST like this thing is now.

This thing however, appears to be 100% gravity fed up until you get to the injector pump.

Just looked on my hard drive to see if I had an old picture, I don't.

I'm stuck inside doing some stuff but can take a shot of it if anyone wants (entire tractor)

Tonight, the wifes uncle & her cousin came home. I went over what I did with them and we all went out to see it. I fired it up and it took about 3 revolutions of the engine to fire, as opposed to 15 seconds of cranking.

 

[RobJ]

I rebuilt my BIL's Int. 384 and it has a CAV pump and a transfer pump. Tank on the bell housing so it could have been a gravity if yuo wanted. Same pump on his old MF 1080, that thing hated air and had these stupid little gromets in the fuel line connections. Tear one of those up and you were done for the day.

If you blew the line towards the fuel tank then something is still in the tank. you should get a good solid flow even with a gravity feed.

good luck,
rob

 

[Soundguy]

The fuel tank taps on many tractors are prime places for small debri to lodge and block fuel flow. I had to pull, clean.. and then eventually repalce the tap on my NH 7610s due to debri int he tank,.. etc..

Soundguy