Grid-tied solar

[Travelover]

Dudley Doubter,
Bring something more to the conversation...

Data on your household maybe? There are some cheap power meters out there that will get you in the ballpark.

I believe the term is "trolling".:laughing:

 

[dave1949]

Thanks for the report. I just finished and put on line 7.5 kW array yesterday afternoon and need to finish wiring of second 8.25 kW array tomorrow and put it on line. So far I don't have production data due to issues with the Envoy monitoring system apparently due to distance from the arrays.

Sounds like you are making good progress, Ladia.

Trolls or disbelieving engineers aside :laughing:, I will keep posting the monthly results until a calendar year has passed.

 

[RobertN]

Here is graph of the last year from my 5KW system. The last couple of days, it has been really rainy out here, so production has been low.
Our solar hot water system has been using it's electric back a little too.

I believe the term is "trolling".:laughing:

 

[Scooby074]

Trolls or disbelieving engineers aside :laughing:, I will keep posting the monthly results until a calendar year has passed.

I say keep this thread going for as long as possible (assuming you dont mind :thumbsup.. Id love to follow the data over several years. I think its great all you guys are doing something rather then just whining about the high cost of electricity. Never mind the trolls who doubt. I wish I could be as efficient as you guys. My next house will be designed to maximize efficiency, you can believe that!

 

[Scooby074]

Sort of related.

I was reading the latest PopSci(?) and they were talking about the Certainteed solar roof panels that look like shingles. Are they ready for prime time? What about snow? I cant remember cost, but id didnt seem outrageous IIRC.

 

[RobertN]

My picture above show my panels since initial installation, at the bottom of the picture. I do not have a monitor for the solar water heater.

I do not see from the panel display website, how to put values to that graph

Id love to follow the data over several years.

 

[RobertN]

Data monthly, 2 years running. 5KW system. N. Calif foothills, east of Sacramento.

12/1/2010 183.44
1/1/2011 396.44
2/1/2011 483.36
3/1/2011 507.87
4/1/2011 776.37
5/1/2011 878.74
6/1/2011 887.49
7/1/2011 1022.28
8/1/2011 956.45
9/1/2011 807.38
10/1/2011 621.42
11/1/2011 420.77
12/1/2011 364.9
1/1/2012 394.36
2/1/2012 502.78
3/1/2012 528.9
4/1/2012 795.48
5/1/2012 971.77
6/1/2012 956.48
7/1/2012 990.18
8/1/2012 935.82
9/1/2012 770.55
10/1/2012 589.44
11/1/2012 367.1
12/1/2012 2.38

 

[MtHam]

My 6KW grid tied system is producing enough power to negate what used to be $300/month electric bill when averaged out over the full year. California's TOU rate schedule means I am selling my summer afternoon excess production at their highest rate (as high as $0.50/kwh,) and then buying back nights and winter at the lowest rate ($0.08-0.12/kwh.) Thus my pay-back time is about 10 years. IMO, those who are still enjoying $0.06/kwh rates will see significant increases in the future.

 

[dave1949]

I say keep this thread going for as long as possible (assuming you dont mind :thumbsup.. Id love to follow the data over several years. I think its great all you guys are doing something rather then just whining about the high cost of electricity. Never mind the trolls who doubt. I wish I could be as efficient as you guys. My next house will be designed to maximize efficiency, you can believe that!

Jason, do you get your power from Hydro Quebec? What are your rates $CAN/kWh?

Some states do make it possible to save money on the electric bill, others not so much. I might save a little over a long time period, but that really isn't my main thing. I look at it from the environmental aspect that for roughly break-even dollars, I can eliminate a fossil fuel use. I think solar would be more prevalent if the up-front cost hurdle was not so high. I think there are many people who would do the same as I if it were not for the high hurdle.

Improved efficiency is usually the first thing to focus on. No matter where or what you source your energy from, it takes a whole lot less for an efficient home. I love it when people are inventive about home energy, and different local area conditions provide different solutions.

 

[Redneck in training]

I just finished wiring second array so I have 16.25 kW on line. I am hoping for some sun tomorrow to show some production. I still have some issues with the monitoring system (Enphase Envoy) though. My PVs are about 300 ft from the house therefore the signal from inverters is apparently to low for reliable communication. I relocated the monitor but had the power turned off all day so I will know tomorrow if it helped. I will, if possible, post a link to live data from my PV system. I still have another 8.25 kW stored in the shop. It takes us (me and my wife) about 4 days to build the supporting structure and two days to install panels and wired it all up. If the weather cooperates I might still add its month. Otherwise I will add it next year the spring.
The utility we get power from does offer net metering (for $1500 charge) but not power "banking". In other words I will get paid every month for excess at rate 3.5 cent/kWh and be buying power in the winter for 11.5 cent /kWh. The big utilities that are regulated by the state are required to offer net metering with "banking" and they also give additional rebate on the top of state and federal tax rebate. Coops are not required to do so and can set any policy. It almost seems to me that they are trying to discourage the alternative energy system.
I will post pics tomorrow.

 

[MtHam]

I still have some issues with the monitoring system (Enphase Envoy) though. My PVs are about 300 ft from the house therefore the signal from inverters is apparently to low for reliable communication. I relocated the monitor but had the power turned off all day so I will know tomorrow if it helped. .

The Enphase system sends the data through the AC wiring from the individual inverters to the monitoring point in the house. 300' does not seem to be excessive. Does Enphase say it is?

 

[Scooby074]

Data monthly, 2 years running. 5KW system. N. Calif foothills, east of Sacramento.

Thanks. There would be significant savings here if I could generate those types of numbers. 5 year payback?

 

[Scooby074]

Jason, do you get your power from Hydro Quebec? What are your rates $CAN/kWh?

Some states do make it possible to save money on the electric bill, others not so much. I might save a little over a long time period, but that really isn't my main thing. I look at it from the environmental aspect that for roughly break-even dollars, I can eliminate a fossil fuel use. I think solar would be more prevalent if the up-front cost hurdle was not so high. I think there are many people who would do the same as I if it were not for the high hurdle.

Improved efficiency is usually the first thing to focus on. No matter where or what you source your energy from, it takes a whole lot less for an efficient home. I love it when people are inventive about home energy, and different local area conditions provide different solutions.

Dave,
No Quebec Hydro here for us. Nova Scotia Power (Emera) is the only game in town.

Right now, our rates are $0.13336/kWh + $0.00587/kWh "efficiency" surcharge giving an effective rate of ¢13.923/kWh. Then there is a base customer charge of $10.83/mth. We pay a lot for electricity here. One of the highest in North America. And this is subject to frequent change. Not a year goes by when NSP isnt asking for a 6-10% increase. In the last 3 years our rates have gone up about 25%.

Our power generation is quite strange here. It used to be a public utility and when it was privatized there was a provision made that NSP would receive a GUARANTEED rate of return of 9.2% which has since been reduced to 9% because of public outcry. Do you know of any business that has a guarantee that they will earn X amount of profit a year? What do you suppose that does for efficiency?

Currently there is an ongoing scandal with NSP based on a consultant's report that they routinely have been overcharging us for power to the tune of millions and may be in conflict by buying fuel from companies they have a stake in. NSP is doing their best to have the report stifled. Were really getting the shaft here.

I wish it was a free market so I would have Hydro Quebec as an option.

On NSP and small scale renewables, they have Net Metering here. At the end of the year, they will pay out for any kWh extra you generate. You are expected to pay the monthly fee for the whole year and your generator must be sized to your usage, in other words, the best they want you to do is break even (minus the monthly fees) , they dont want you to "make" money.

For larger installs there is a Comfit (community feed in) option, where the community buys a large turbine for example and hydro buys back at a rate. You can make money with this, but this is a huge investment, and as far as I know they aren't taking any more Comfits.

 

[dave1949]

Dave,
No Quebec Hydro here for us. Nova Scotia Power (Emera) is the only game in town.

Right now, our rates are $0.13336/kWh + $0.00587/kWh "efficiency" surcharge giving an effective rate of ｢13.923/kWh. Then there is a base customer charge of $10.83/mth. We pay a lot for electricity here. One of the highest in North America. And this is subject to frequent change. Not a year goes by when NSP isnt asking for a 6-10% increase. In the last 3 years our rates have gone up about 25%.

Our power generation is quite strange here. It used to be a public utility and when it was privatized there was a provision made that NSP would receive a GUARANTEED rate of return of 9.2% which has since been reduced to 9% because of public outcry. Do you know of any business that has a guarantee that they will earn X amount of profit a year? What do you suppose that does for efficiency?

Currently there is an ongoing scandal with NSP based on a consultant's report that they routinely have been overcharging us for power to the tune of millions and may be in conflict by buying fuel from companies they have a stake in. NSP is doing their best to have the report stifled. Were really getting the shaft here.

I wish it was a free market so I would have Hydro Quebec as an option.

On NSP and small scale renewables, they have Net Metering here. At the end of the year, they will pay out for any kWh extra you generate. You are expected to pay the monthly fee for the whole year and your generator must be sized to your usage, in other words, the best they want you to do is break even (minus the monthly fees) , they dont want you to "make" money.

For larger installs there is a Comfit (community feed in) option, where the community buys a large turbine for example and hydro buys back at a rate. You can make money with this, but this is a huge investment, and as far as I know they aren't taking any more Comfits.

Thanks, I wondered what sort of rates you have. Ours are pretty close to yours, but are separated into two charges:
A base connection fee charge of $9.41/month, which includes the delivery service (lines) charge for the first 100 kWh. then $0.065831 for each kWh above the first 100 kWh.
An electricity supply (generation) charge of $0.074380 for each kWh.

So, the first 100 kWh cost $9.41 + (100 X $0.074380) = $16.85
The remaining kWh cost $0.065831 + $0.07438 = $0.140211 each.

That puts us near the top in the US, like you. We buy some power from Hydro Quebec

 

[Scooby074]

T
That puts us near the top in the US, like you. We buy some power from Hydro Quebec

I see your rates are close to us. Emera has a large presence in Maine doesnt it? I wonder if that's the common denominator? People here are so sick of NSP and Emera, i swear, we are one more increase away from riots in the streets. People here can barely pay their electric bills, then Emera builds a new, massive, top of the line, $53 million dollar office tower in Halifax on the inside an abandoned generation plant.. they have no clue.

There could be a break in the future once Muskrat Falls (Hydro, by Newfoundland power (Nalcor)) comes on line... but given Emera and NSP's greed I doubt we consumers will see any benefit. Prices wont come down until NSP's monopoly on distribution is broken.

 

[dave1949]

I see your rates are close to us. Emera has a large presence in Maine doesnt it? I wonder if that's the common denominator? People here are so sick of NSP and Emera, i swear, we are one more increase away from riots in the streets. People here can barely pay their electric bills, then Emera builds a new, massive, top of the line, $53 million dollar office tower in Halifax on the inside an abandoned generation plant.. they have no clue.

There could be a break in the future once Muskrat Falls (Hydro, by Newfoundland power (Nalcor)) comes on line... but given Emera and NSP's greed I doubt we consumers will see any benefit. Prices wont come down until NSP's monopoly on distribution is broken.

Our area service is provided by Central Maine Power which is owned by a Spanish firm, Iberdrola S.A. Emera owns Bangor Hydro, which serves much of northern Maine.
Emera

 

[Scooby074]

Our area service is provided by Central Maine Power which is owned by a Spanish firm, Iberdrola S.A. Emera owns Bangor Hydro, which serves much of northern Maine.
Emera

I knew they had some holdings in Maine. Thanks for the info.

 

[Redneck in training]

The Enphase system sends the data through the AC wiring from the individual inverters to the monitoring point in the house. 300' does not seem to be excessive. Does Enphase say it is?

Apparently there are other factors than distance that affect the communication with the inverters. I couldn't find single outlet in the house that would make the Envoy communicate. Then I put the Envoy to the shop and it started to work as expected. Since there is not Ethernet I had to use Ethernet power line bridge to connect it to home network and Internet.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/h2eX136588 here is a link to my system. So far it didn't produce much power due to fog and overcast.

 

[dave1949]

Very cool Ladia. I liked the time-lapse replay of the days output for each panel/inverter when clicking on the arrow. That should make trouble-shooting a breeze.

 

[Scooby074]

Really neat Ladia. I really like how you can drill right down to see each inverter.

Id imagine you can access the system locally without having it hooked to the internet is that correct?