Oil & Fuel Grease in front bevel gears?

[Ilikeurtractor]

Hi all,
I just bought an Iseki tx1300f and went to change all the fluids. All went fine until I went to drain the front bevel gears (the ones closest to the wheels) and nothing came out. Upon further inspection, I saw that somebody had filled the cavities full of grease, or at least mostly full. I put back 90W gear oil like the user manual stated. I wanted to take the cover off and clean everything out, but found out it may be a bigger job than I thought especially since I'm still waiting on the service manual to arrive. Should I worry about cleaning out the grease, or leave it as-is? Thanks in advance.

 

[Wacky]

Hi all,
I just bought an Iseki tx1300f and went to change all the fluids. All went fine until I went to drain the front bevel gears (the ones closest to the wheels) and nothing came out. Upon further inspection, I saw that somebody had filled the cavities full of grease, or at least mostly full. I put back 90W gear oil like the user manual stated. I wanted to take the cover off and clean everything out, but found out it may be a bigger job than I thought especially since I'm still waiting on the service manual to arrive. Should I worry about cleaning out the grease, or leave it as-is? Thanks in advance.

Who would do that??? I would try to flush all that out with kerosene. Not sure you will get it all. Then fill with your oil, run it and then change it again. You will probably have to do that several time to get it all out. That is probably the only way to get it all out w/o disassembling the whole thing. The only thing is...how long has it been run that way.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Yeah, since the thing is 30+ years old it's hard to say how long it's been that way. The guy I bought it from thought he bought it new in 2003 and he was disappointed to say the least when I told him they were made around 1980. He stated he never changed *any* of the fluids including the engine oil which was obvious, but then he said he only put about 50 hours on it. I guess having grease is better than bone dry in the gear cases. The gears looked ok as far as I could get them apart - I couldn't completely disassemble them from the wheel end. There was some slight pitting evident though but no chipped teeth thankfully. I think I may need to remove the entire axle assembly to get it all apart. I'll see what the service manual says when I get it. I may be able to clean it fairly well with a paint brush and kerosene as you stated just by breaking the end plate cover off the couple of inches I could get it to go.

I'm not sure what kind of hodgepodge lubricant I'll end up with when the grease and 90W oil mix. I'm not an expert on greases and oils, but it seems like grease tends to separate into oil and thickner ("soap") over time and I'm not sure if this will cause harm or not. I don't think it would be good not to put any 90W oil in it at this time though - at least I know the gears should carry that around somewhat versus the grease which who knows.

 

[cowboy357]

Hi all,
I just bought an Iseki tx1300f and went to change all the fluids. All went fine until I went to drain the front bevel gears (the ones closest to the wheels) and nothing came out. Upon further inspection, I saw that somebody had filled the cavities full of grease, or at least mostly full. I put back 90W gear oil like the user manual stated. I wanted to take the cover off and clean everything out, but found out it may be a bigger job than I thought especially since I'm still waiting on the service manual to arrive. Should I worry about cleaning out the grease, or leave it as-is? Thanks in advance.

The bottom seals were probably leaking , rather then fixing it they more then likelly took the easy way out . as long as it has enough grease in it it might be ok since its lasted this long without any damage , but I dont think I would chance it at the price of the gears IF you can even find them . Heres a thread that might be helpfull from when I tore my TA255 apart , I still haven't got the gears I need and am only using it in 2 wheel drive . Best of luck .

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/iseki/181762-needing-frontend-gears-brgs-ta250f.html

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Cowboy357: Thanks for the post. That's pretty scary what happened to your tractor. I haven't taken apart the other side at all yet so who knows what else I'll find. The 4wd seems to work fine and rotating the front units by hand and can feel a little "bumpiness" but nothing that seems too bad insofar as I can tell. I'm still waiting on the service manual to try to see what I'm up against as far as disassembling the front axle. I will post what I find as I get a chance to work on it.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Well, after an afternoon of fighting apart the left side of the tractor it finally came apart - not quite like the service manual stated but at least it did come apart. The wheel drive shaft was suppose to leave the bearing on the end towards the tractor in place and it took most of my screwdrivers to pry it off. There wasn't much room to work with in there and I can't wait to get into the other side and find the nice surprises I found with this one. The bearing closest to the wheel was shattered. Now I'll need one of those and a seal as that looked unusable. Check out the pix

 

[Soundguy]

i doubt the greas / oil mix will hurt anything.. it will just become a thick lube.

I think you may find someone greasesd the box because it had leaky seals they didn't want to address.. that or they didn't know any better.

It sounds like #2 grease.. it would have been better had they added a nlgi 0 or 00# grease.. like a ep pourable lube or even jd cornhead grease.. if flows and slumps vs making cavities. In hard times I have added gun grease #2 AND 85/140 to make a soup in a leaky box.. it's better than straight grease.. course any lube was better than none.

post back on the seals..

soundguy

Yeah, since the thing is 30+ years old it's hard to say how long it's been that way. The guy I bought it from thought he bought it new in 2003 and he was disappointed to say the least when I told him they were made around 1980. He stated he never changed *any* of the fluids including the engine oil which was obvious, but then he said he only put about 50 hours on it. I guess having grease is better than bone dry in the gear cases. The gears looked ok as far as I could get them apart - I couldn't completely disassemble them from the wheel end. There was some slight pitting evident though but no chipped teeth thankfully. I think I may need to remove the entire axle assembly to get it all apart. I'll see what the service manual says when I get it. I may be able to clean it fairly well with a paint brush and kerosene as you stated just by breaking the end plate cover off the couple of inches I could get it to go.

I'm not sure what kind of hodgepodge lubricant I'll end up with when the grease and 90W oil mix. I'm not an expert on greases and oils, but it seems like grease tends to separate into oil and thickner ("soap") over time and I'm not sure if this will cause harm or not. I don't think it would be good not to put any 90W oil in it at this time though - at least I know the gears should carry that around somewhat versus the grease which who knows.

 

[284 International]

Tangential to the topic: Soundguy, do you pre-mix the grease and gear oil then pump it with a gun when you do that treatment?

It looks like the gears are ok, from my tiny screen here. At least you went ahead and did the disassembly and inspection before the broken bearing wrecked the whole front end.

 

[Soundguy]

I don't do that sort of thing often.. but in the past I have put in a lil oil, then a lil grease and ran it.. to plug up the seal.. then pump in more rease and top with some oil.. then run it.

currently have a 6' HD brush mower like that. It's old and clapped out.. seals weeped with 90w.. and when I got it.. it had been setting a year leaned up against a tree, input shaft aimed down and the bx was all but dry.

after a test fill.. lower seal holds oil fine.. input shaft seal weeps.. thus I greased it.. works fine now. PS.. did I mention it was free..

also have a broadcast spreadyer with a weepy seal with nlgi 0# grease in it. it's fine now. i use it 2x per year..

soundguy

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I don't think the bearing failed because of the lube which I guess is good. The other bearings looked good and one of them was sealed and didn't have a c-clip on the end of it like the service manual stated so somebody has been in here before using "aftermarket" parts. You can see where there are a lot of marks on the housing gasket face from someone hacking away at it which is unfortunate. I'm thinking the bearing that failed may have been the wrong one. It literally shattered on the outer race when I tapped it out of it's socket. Seems like it may have been a bit big on the O.D. but it's hard to say for sure. I'm glad I did find it. It's odd that it wasn't really detectable from just spinning the wheel freely. I did feel some slight bumpiness that I thought was the gears but evidently it was the bearing. The pinion gear has some light pitting, the larger spur gear looks pretty good. I hope the right side of the tractor fairs at least as good and hopefully better. I'll let you know. I did find some new seals on ebay in England but I'm going to try NAPA next week and see what they have just in case it might be somewhat common.

I'm finding out that I'll be spending more time fixing this thing than using it which is common for me for some reason with a lot of the things I have. I really like the tractor. Next will be the engine. Hopefully there won't be too many more "hidden" presents in it. :confused2:

 

[Soundguy]

good luck.

soundguy

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

good luck.

soundguy

Thanks. Here's a pic of the tractor with my oldest son. I have since changed the seat (old was ripped). I think it's in pretty decent shape other than what I'm recently finding. The electrical was a bit screwy - the oil and temp lights were swapped which was strange. I got the front and rear lights working, fixed the horn and turn signals (of all things). I'm adding a winch and weights to the front. It came with a 48" box blade and 36" "rotary mower" which I guess is a brush hog. I'll only be using it once a year to mow a 2/3 acre empty lot I have in another town nearby. I bought a used Craftsman riding mower at first to do it for $500, and don't get me wrong, those riding mowers work great for mowing the grass on flat land, but they seem pretty useless for anything else with their "one wheel drive" and hydrostatic transmission which seemed to strain under any load. I tried using it to pull a little 4'x8' trailer and the trailer is a bit much for it - I later found out the trailer weighs 1200 lbs. empty and the Craftsman only about 500 lbs. so I can't complain about it too much. Also in the winter the Craftsman was hopeless in any kind of snow for pulling the trailer (or even just moving itself around) although I'm sure the biggest problem with this Iseki will be trying to get it started in the winter. I'm hoping to find a block heater for it before then.

 

[lens12]

Rather than mix oil & grease, one can use a JD corn head grease. Really it is a real thick oil that looks like grease. When it gets warm it will flow, while grease will be slumg to the side.

 

[Soundguy]

It's -NOT- an oil...it's an NLGI 0# grease, as I mentioned in my previous post. To be specific, it's an EP 0# non-soap polyurea based lubricating grease.


http://finalube.com/Product_Data_Files/Fina_Branded_PDF_Files/corn_head_grease_no_0.pdf


soundguy

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Well got the other side apart and it's pretty much a repeat of the left side except there wasn't any grease in the right side (and subsequently no lube at all since nothing drained out the first time I tried it). The bearing on the other end of the wheel shaft is pretty loose and will need to be replaced as well. The gears look ok but this time it's the larger spur gear that has some slight pitting and the pinion looks fine. Looks like this side had the original seal in it as it looks more like what is in the service manual. Still no lock ring on the end of the pinion shaft so I guess that means someone was in it doing maintenance in the past and left it out.

I'm beginning to think there is a problem with axial loading on these failed wheel bearings since it happened to both sides. Although the bearings are deep groove single row, I wonder if they are sufficient for the axial loads they see? I keep thinking back when I bought the tractor and the owner was showing it to me - he would get on it and "pop the clutch" while the wheels were turned lifting the front off the ground and then it would slam down on the front and begin to turn. That's got to cause some high axial shock loads on the front wheel bearings It may explain why the bearing cages were pushed out towards the sides as well. I'd like to go back in with double row angular contact bearings to help handle axial loads for just the wheel side bearings, but I see where that takes the bearing width from 16mm to almost 24mm and the modifications required to accommodate that probably aren't worth it at this point. I guess I'll have to inspect them often after I get new ones in and see how they are holding up after some use.

 

[Soundguy]

imho.. original design should be sufficient.. if instaleld correctly and lubed.

soundguy

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

imho.. original design should be sufficient.. if instaleld correctly and lubed.

soundguy

I agree. It doesn't seem like too many others are experiencing the same problem. It may have been a one-time event that caused the damage, i.e. fell off a trailer or the like. The bearings are supposedly rated for around 2400 lbs. each under static radial conditions if they are similar to the original. I can't find what the rated axial/thrust load is but some sources say 25-50% of radial for deep groove ball bearings so that could be as little as 600 lbs which doesn't seem like a lot. I was able to find bearings and seals locally. The seals are not OEM which was expected but should work. I'll be paying close attention to them in service.

 

[Soundguy]

yep.. I've had to match seals with ID, OD, and thickness before. as long as lip design is the same.. it's usually fine.

as to the bearing failure.. yep.. could have been incorrect instalation, or a shock load as you mention, or could have been cheap bearings. I've bought some steering thrust bearings that had a different angle that original.. setting the preload on them would cause the cages to crack... go figure... might have had a loader on it at some point and wore the smack out of the bearings AND shock loaded it.

soundguy

 

[Rod in Forfar]

Last winter when I changed the fluids in the G174 I discovered grease fittings at the top of the front gear cases you describe. So I pumped more gun grease into them.

Something howls in cold weather, but the tractor has run well for about eighty hours of mowing this spring, most in 4WD.

Its electric heater seems to be epoxied to the rear portion of the oil pan.

Starting problems last summer stemmed from the starter coming loose internally so that the dealer could see it flex when working. A rebuild fixed it.

Remember not to leave the key on. It kills the battery.

 

[Soundguy]

i'd be adding some 85/140 gear oil or 0# / 00# grease to that front case.. howling means a bearing is complaining..

gun grease will sling and form a cavity lettingthe bearings and gears run dry.

soundguy